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Arthur Crackpot posted:The whole "send Jeanne into the ether" thing seemed really just and noble until people started bleeding. But if she wants to shut this argument down, she can just mention the price she's going to be paying. Everyone else came out safe and sound, but we don't know what bargain she made.
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Mar 8, 2017 10:01
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True, Annie did sacrifice her ~as yet unknown price~ to keep them all safe and alive. She probably would have done it for Ayilu if she really had gotten stabbed in the face.
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Mar 8, 2017 10:04
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I'm starting to think this is an internal thought process and not actually happening for real. Annie's having a breakdown.
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Mar 8, 2017 10:09
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Also, Red is dropping so many truth nukes that I doubt there will be any survivors. I am enjoying this glimpse into Red's hidden depths. She was definitely nowhere on my list of people likely to call Annie out for playing fast and loose with everyone's safety. Surprise!
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Mar 8, 2017 11:24
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FronzelNeekburm posted:Sometimes doing the right thing is worth the cost, although Annie probably didn't think that through. Nah, that's /really/ not the thing to do. The thing to do is sincerely apologize to everyone involved, like she should have immediately after this Jeanne thing was completed. Because if she explodes and says , "Well I made a dark bargain to get us all out of the mess I engineered," it's not going to help the situation. Everybody involved is probably still in a fair bit of trouble. Possibly including Jones, if Team Annie didn't tell her about what was going down before it happened. In that case it's a betrayal of the trust Jones put in her, as well. The Headmaster clearly does not like Annie's Amazing Adventures, and can make a decent case for coming down hard on Annie and gang for her recklessness if the details get out.
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Mar 8, 2017 11:35
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maltesh posted:Nah, that's /really/ not the thing to do. The thing to do is sincerely apologize to everyone involved, like she should have immediately after this Jeanne thing was completed. Isn't there a chance the Court already knows? I got the impression that they were monitoring Annie and her pals in previous chapters.
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Mar 8, 2017 11:39
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I'm certain the court is well aware of absolutely everything Annie has ever done. They're playing a long game, and all the students are just pawns in it.
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Mar 8, 2017 11:46
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I thought this was going to be a silly, fun relief chapter Tom!
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Mar 8, 2017 12:53
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haha loving  How much bigger can Annie's eyes get? Tune in Friday!
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Mar 8, 2017 13:46
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Yeah I agree with the "it's a nightmare" posters. This page in particular has the cadence of the kind of nightmare where everything appears normal and then everyone starts telling you it's all your fault. I fully expect someone to turn to a skeleton or have gaping wounds and Annie to snap awake.
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Mar 8, 2017 13:59
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Lurdiak posted:Everyone's always giving Annie a hard time.
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Mar 8, 2017 14:04
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Mischalaniouse posted:I'm certain the court is well aware of absolutely everything Annie has ever done. They're playing a long game, and all the students are just pawns in it. There's a difference between looking at things happening and planning for them to happen. It's like when you replace policemen by video cameras. Sure, you can watch a mugging take place and steeple your fingers while saying "all according to keikaku" but honestly if you could stop the crime from happening in the first place you'd be better at your job. Annie's been considered an annoyance, but not one big enough to actually bother making an effort at curtailing her. That might change when they found out she's responsible for the inevitable shadowmen invasion or whatever will go through now that the Jeannewall is gone.
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Mar 8, 2017 14:14
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They've already made an effort by bringing in her father.
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Mar 8, 2017 14:21
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Glagha posted:I thought this was going to be a silly, fun relief chapter Tom!
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Mar 8, 2017 14:43
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Red living up to her name, standing up to the employing class, calling out Annie for her shameless exploitation of others' labor. That owns.
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Mar 8, 2017 14:53
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FronzelNeekburm posted:Sometimes doing the right thing is worth the cost, although Annie probably didn't think that through. This is kind of missing the problem here. Annie's basically treated her friends like tools who's informed consent was unimportant in the context of her goals. She used Ayilu like a patsy by offering something she knew was of critical cultural importance, that Ayilu would do almost anything for, but had no real value in Annie's own eyes. To Annie Ayilu is just a convenient dupe. She's undoubtedly convinced herself otherwise, as we see, but that's self deception plain and simple to maintain her own self-image.
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Mar 8, 2017 15:19
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Captain Oblivious posted:This is kind of missing the problem here. Annie's basically treated her friends like tools who's informed consent was unimportant in the context of her goals. She used Ayilu like a patsy by offering something she knew was of critical cultural importance, that Ayilu would do almost anything for, but had no real value in Annie's own eyes. To Annie Ayilu is just a convenient dupe. She's undoubtedly convinced herself otherwise, as we see, but that's self deception plain and simple to maintain her own self-image. Wow I didn't know you had access to this fictional character's inner life.
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Mar 8, 2017 15:20
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Captain Oblivious posted:This is kind of missing the problem here. Annie's basically treated her friends like tools who's informed consent was unimportant in the context of her goals. She used Ayilu like a patsy by offering something she knew was of critical cultural importance, that Ayilu would do almost anything for, but had no real value in Annie's own eyes. To Annie Ayilu is just a convenient dupe. She's undoubtedly convinced herself otherwise, as we see, but that's self deception plain and simple to maintain her own self-image. I'm absolutely certain all of them knew that murder ghost could possibly murder them. I mean, that's her name, right? Murderghost? Yeah, it was.
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Mar 8, 2017 15:25
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Lurdiak posted:Wow I didn't know you had access to this fictional character's inner life. I have access to this magical thing called the text, and the ability to read it. This is a pretty surface level reading of what we're getting here  Annie is getting called out for using people, and thus viewing them less as friends and more as tools even if she herself does not realize it.
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Mar 8, 2017 15:35
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Captain Oblivious posted:This is kind of missing the problem here. Annie's basically treated her friends like tools who's informed consent was unimportant in the context of her goals. She used Ayilu like a patsy by offering something she knew was of critical cultural importance, that Ayilu would do almost anything for, but had no real value in Annie's own eyes. To Annie Ayilu is just a convenient dupe. She's undoubtedly convinced herself otherwise, as we see, but that's self deception plain and simple to maintain her own self-image. Err, I think you are projecting here. While Annie may have come up with the idea, it's kind of ridiculous to suggest she treated her friends like tools. Or by that metric, any time you ask a friend to help you out is treating them like tools. And if you think Ayilu did not full well what going toes to toes with Jeanne wasn't dangerous... E: I mean, as far as we know, everyone knew everything about The Plan and its dangers. I fail to see how that is treating someone like a tool or deceiving them. Iceclaw fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Mar 8, 2017 |
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Mar 8, 2017 15:38
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Iceclaw posted:Err, I think you are projecting here. While Annie may have come up with the idea, it's kind of ridiculous to suggest she treated her friends like tools. Or by that metric, any time you ask a friend to help you out is treating them like tools. And if you think Ayilu did not full well what going toes to toes with Jeanne wasn't dangerous... Red's reaction here suggests that if not the presence of danger, the degree came as a surprise. Again, you're not really engaging with the text. The accusation of manipulative behavior comes from Annie offering a reward that is both trivial to obtain and has no value to her to lure someone into mortal danger they (clearly, by Red's reaction) did not fully appreciate. In doing this, she knew that while Ayilu could theoretically say no, they would not due to the cultural significance of the offered reward. Annie has convinced herself that she made some kind of fair trade with Ayilu and Red is responding that no, she really didn't. Annie did what was convenient for her and for her goals. That's skeezy as poo poo and realizing that is important for Annie.
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Mar 8, 2017 15:48
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I actually am kinda getting the impression that Ayilu is about to disagree with Red.
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Mar 8, 2017 15:54
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Regy Rusty posted:I actually am kinda getting the impression that Ayilu is about to disagree with Red. That's entirely possible. I'm not so sure about the whole nightmare thing. Red's behavior is certainly unexpected but she's still maintaining voice. 
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Mar 8, 2017 16:00
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And how exactly is trading something you see of little value manipulative? As long as you do not misrepresent said value ?
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Mar 8, 2017 16:02
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Captain Oblivious posted:Red's reaction here suggests that if not the presence of danger, the degree came as a surprise. Again, you're not really engaging with the text. The accusation of manipulative behavior comes from Annie offering a reward that is both trivial to obtain and has no value to her to lure someone into mortal danger they (clearly, by Red's reaction) did not fully appreciate. In doing this, she knew that while Ayilu could theoretically say no, they would not due to the cultural significance of the offered reward. Annie has convinced herself that she made some kind of fair trade with Ayilu and Red is responding that no, she really didn't. Annie did what was convenient for her and for her goals. Mhmm. Annie realized that a name was very valuable to Ayilu, and so she could use it to get her to help...but failed to really notice the significance that to Annie, giving Ayilu a name was downright effortless. From Annie's side, giving Ayilu a name has almost zero value and so almost zero cost. It was wrong of Annie to exploit that fact, whether she realized she was doing it or not.
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Mar 8, 2017 16:02
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Paramemetic posted:Red living up to her name, standing up to the employing class, calling out Annie for her shameless exploitation of others' labor.  Red Rising was a really bad book.
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Mar 8, 2017 16:32
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Iceclaw posted:And how exactly is trading something you see of little value manipulative? As long as you do not misrepresent said value ? You could argue about whether 'taking advantage' of these situations isn't always unethical, but it certainly isn't something you do to your friends or people you claim to care about. If you care about somebody, you don't trade something that takes little time / has little value to you in exchange for them risking their life - even if they would do it. Noonsaliwah fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Mar 8, 2017 |
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Mar 8, 2017 17:19
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I do feel bad for Annie, because so often she has to take on jobs or roles she's really not ready for, often in lieu of responsible adults who should not push their problems onto her, and then she has to take poo poo for being imperfect. Cut the kid some slack! She's solving all your ancient magic dilemmas instead of being able to chill out sometimes and really be a kid. Of course, this is still an important lesson to learn and it's fair for Red to call her out.
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Mar 8, 2017 17:31
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Something does seem wrong here. Red is saying that Annie left Andrew bleeding out, which means a) that Red didn't understand or comprehend what went down, b) she's purposefully misrepresenting things to be spiteful, or c) this is a dream or something. And it's completely unfair to fault her for Parley/Smitty/Kat/Robot being at risk, when they did know the danger and knowingly and willingly accepted. We also don't have all the information about how she recruited Red + Ayilu and did/did not explain the dangers associated. Or whatever. In any case maybe maaaayyybbeee it might be a good idea to see what the follow up is before getting super into big debates of morality and whatnot.
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Mar 8, 2017 18:18
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But Red gave her the name so Annie should be in her debt for getting them to risk their lives for nothing in return.
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Mar 8, 2017 18:21
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Tea-san can you please just spoil the rest of the series so these yahoos will shut up
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Mar 8, 2017 18:24
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Please settle this jabroni situation so these yahoos can return to discussing whether Tony is a dunderhead or a shitmonger
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Mar 8, 2017 19:17
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While I don't think Annie intentionally did what Red's suggesting here, the argument also doesn't really hold up if you think about it for longer than ten seconds. Like, if a name is really everything to her, someone going "hey I'll totally give you a name early if you do me a favor" implies that said favor is probably going to be a huge deal, even if you don't tell them they're going to be in danger. And that's not even the case, everyone involved knew the plan going in, which was "distract the murder ghost or otherwise stall until we figure out how to free her and send her on because otherwise we'll all die"! This entire argument hinges on Annie being some kind of literal robot, coldly evaluating how she can most efficiently manipulate her friends. It doesn't sound like harsh truths, it sounds like a person whining who contributed nothing to the plan, got nothing out of it, and shouldn't have been there in the first place. Like, not to say that it was a perfect plan and there won't be any consequences but for this to be true Red's suggesting her friend is a gullible idiot who was somehow so blinded by finally being able to obtain the literal most important thing in her life that she didn't notice any danger in Annie going "hey so we're getting the court/forest mediums, a techno wizard and a dragon slayer in training to go save a murder ghost, you want in?"
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Mar 8, 2017 19:22
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This being Annie's nightmare would make sense given Red's current behavior toward her, but it would also mean Red's impromptu love declaration didn't really happen 
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Mar 8, 2017 19:53
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Red's just angry that "Ayilu" is a much cooler name than "Red."
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Mar 8, 2017 20:02
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Why the hell should it be a dream sequence? The only possibly dreamlike thing going on was Ayilu's manic destruction of her new name. Everything Red is saying? 100% grounded. If this were just a dream or whatever claptrap it'd be very dumb IMO.
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Mar 8, 2017 20:05
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Cat Mattress posted:Why the hell should it be a dream sequence? Personally I don't think it's a dream, but the sudden shift from happy to "everything's YOUR fault" + Red claiming something we know is untrue make it a possibility, I think.
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Mar 8, 2017 20:25
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Iceclaw posted:And how exactly is trading something you see of little value manipulative? As long as you do not misrepresent said value ? you don't hold something your friend desperately wants that it'd cost you literally nothing to give them over their head to control their behavior. The friendly thing to do there, were Antimony of a mind to give her a name at all, would be to just... give her one. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Mar 8, 2017 |
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Mar 8, 2017 20:34
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1) Wow Annie gets held to a pretty high ethical standard for a pretty messed up kid who literally lives in Mad Scientist Land 2) We have no idea exactly what happened during the planning phase of the Jeanne mission and whether or not everyone really was fully informed of the risks 3) They're all underage, they can't consent to purposefully risking their lives no matter what anyway 4) The Court has crazy mass surveillance, was definitely watching everything, and did nothing to stop this 5) I guess we'll find out more later? Cat Mattress posted:Why the hell should it be a dream sequence? It's just surreal and dream-like to see Red act serious at all ever while saying things that sound like negative self-talk more than reality ("You left him bleeding to death with a knife in his chest" doesn't describe what happened; Annie didn't leave him there, she made some sort of very personal sacrifice to fix poo poo and Andrew's doing fine as a result).
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Mar 8, 2017 20:35
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:you don't hold something your friend desperately wants that it'd cost you literally nothing to give them over their head to control their behavior. The friendly thing to do there, were Antimony of a mind to give her a name at all, would be to just... give her one. I mean, there is a difference between "hey kid, you want one of them names, don'tcha? Well I can get you one, but you just gotta do one little thing first..." and "I know I'm asking a lot of you, and I'd really appreciate the help, no big if you don't want to though, but in return it's really the least I could do to give you a name..."
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Mar 8, 2017 20:40
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