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Dewgy posted:Games "journalism" seems perpetually stuck in the 90s. Little more than a PR mouthpiece and the occasional sidebar about how wacky Japan is. It's fun to read opinions and reviews on upcoming stuff but even reviews have barely gone anywhere. I think people kind of need to get over the idea of "games journalism" being actual journalism, because it isn't and it was never supposed to be. Sites like IGN or GameSpot are the video games equivalent of, like, the E! television network--it's entertainment news, not hard-hitting "journalism," and trying to hold it to some kind of critical standard is missing the point entirely. What we're lacking isn't "games journalism," but rather good games critics. There are great movie critics out there, great literature critics, and even some good television critics these days, and that's not really paying attention to the academic side of criticism (which, having been there, is significantly up its own rear end, at least in the US). When it comes to video games, there are a few critics out there who are doing good work in games criticism, but they're few, far between, and generally overshadowed by the reviews published by the entertainment sites or people like Yahtzee who make accentuate-the-negative videos for entertainment purposes. Some sites like Polygon I think got too caught up in the word "journalism" and are trying to delve into that with little expertise--it's no accident that they're owned by Vox, because they're the equivalent of Vox but for video games--and simultaneously tend to be pretty clumsy at anything that approaches real criticism. (I'm using the word "criticism" in the academic sense--not necessarily criticizing, but rather engaging with something critically on a level beyond its individual game systems and technical aspects.) Harrow fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Mar 8, 2017 |
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Mar 8, 2017 22:03
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Harrow posted:What we're lacking isn't "games journalism," but rather good games critics. Yeah but there's no money in this though. Gamers say they want video games to be considered art but the minute you start subjecting them to the sort of critical analysis that gets applied to art it immediately turns around and becomes "god why are trying to shove your agenda into this, just play the game and have fun, jeez."
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Mar 8, 2017 22:09
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Harrow posted:I think people kind of need to get over the idea of "games journalism" being actual journalism, because it isn't and it was never supposed to be. Sites like IGN or GameSpot are the video games equivalent of, like, the E! television network--it's entertainment news, not hard-hitting "journalism," and trying to hold it to some kind of critical standard is missing the point entirely. there are very few critics I bother putting too much stock into but there are a few "journalists" who actually bother to make good informative pieces. Danny O'Dwyer's Noclip and even The Point was pretty good. Someone on Polygon, no idea who--it sure as poo poo wasn't Arthur Gies or Ben Kuchera--wrote an excellent, sprawling thing about Japanese game devs a few years ago. DigitalFoundry is probably one of the only places that objectively covers poo poo. Eurogamer in general is pretty decent.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:10
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Kai Tave posted:Yeah but there's no money in this though. Gamers say they want video games to be considered art but the minute you start subjecting them to the sort of critical analysis that gets applied to art it immediately turns around and becomes "god why are trying to shove your agenda into this, just play the game and have fun, jeez." Yep, exactly. That's the part I left out: most attempts at actual video game criticism are met with indifference at best and hostility at worst. While art criticism doesn't always have to be about social issues or racial/sexual/cultural dynamics and portrayals, it's inevitably going to get there eventually. Even criticism as simple as "let's examine why so many video games are about shooting and what that says about our interactive entertainment habits and the industry's incentives" sometimes ends up being read as a "screed" against video game violence. There's sort of an expectation in internet culture in general, but especially in video games, that critically engaging with something in anything less than a "this is perfect, let's look at why it's so perfect" way means you don't like that thing or want it to go away. MinibarMatchman posted:there are very few critics I bother putting too much stock into but there are a few "journalists" who actually bother to make good informative pieces. Danny O'Dwyer's Noclip and even The Point was pretty good. Someone on Polygon, no idea who--it sure as poo poo wasn't Arthur Gies or Ben Kuchera--wrote an excellent, sprawling thing about Japanese game devs a few years ago. Well, by criticism, I don't necessarily mean objective reviews. I don't really think that you can get very far talking about entertainment or art without it eventually becoming subjective. So I'm not really looking for stone-faced objectivity in my video game reviews. I just love reviews that go deeper than the surface level or reviewers who recognize that criticism and reviewing are something of an art form in and of themselves. It's an easy reference, but, for example, we don't have a Roger Ebert of video games, y'know? On the journalism side of things, I agree, Danny O'Dwyer does very good investigative and documentary work, and Eurogamer is really good as far as the video game "entertainment news" sites are concerned. I also mention Polygon's similarity to its parent company's flagship site, Vox, in that it's hit-or-miss without about the same frequency. Vox often posts really superficial "explainers" or annoying devil's-advocate articles or just outright bad pieces, but every once in a while just nails it with something really in-depth and fascinating. Polygon is the same way. I'm generally not into their reviews and I think some of their articles are annoyingly superficial or misguided, but whenever they do one of their big "cover stories" they're pretty great. That sprawling article about Japanese game development was excellent--are you thinking of the one that was about outsourcing to smaller development houses and how all of it fits together? Because that was good as hell.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:16
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I've turned to Giant Bomb's Quick Looks and pretty much any other actual footage of a game to try and see if I would enjoy it but that's no substitute for having actual criticism from someone who has your point of view or whose point of view you at least understand.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:17
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Eurogamer is my main game news site despite not being in euro. Their reviews were always less fawning and they're responsible for one of my all-time favorite pieces of game writing.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:19
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I find that Polygon, RPS and Kotaku generally have a 50/50 ratio on decent articles when it comes to video games. Waypoint is really good and I dig their output in a big way. Hopefully we get more Waypoints in the future and fewer IGNs and Gamespots.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:21
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Serf posted:I find that Polygon, RPS and Kotaku generally have a 50/50 ratio on decent articles when it comes to video games. Waypoint is really good and I dig their output in a big way. Hopefully we get more Waypoints in the future and fewer IGNs and Gamespots. Kotaku, the normal feed of their crap aside, has surprisingly detailed and nuanced reviews nowadays. I remember the ones they wrote for AC Unity and Syndicate which were way better than they had any right to be.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:25
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haveblue posted:Eurogamer is my main game news site despite not being in euro. Their reviews were always less fawning and they're responsible for one of my all-time favorite pieces of game writing. That really was a good review. Eurogamer is my go-to for write-ups but I usually go to GameSpot for footage.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:25
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haveblue posted:Eurogamer is my main game news site despite not being in euro. Their reviews were always less fawning and they're responsible for one of my all-time favorite pieces of game writing. Eurogamer is my go-to for written reviews as well. I appreciate the lack of a review score and they have a consistent and understandable reviewing perspective that helps me understand how their recommendations match up with what I'd probably like. I think there are some good YouTubers making decent games content now, too. Danny O'Dwyer, of course, but he isn't really in the reviews/criticism business (which is fine, he's doing something very few others are doing and it's great). I generally like Super Bunnyhop (George Weidman), even when I don't agree with his takes on a lot of things, and he also does some decent "journalism" every now and again. MrBtongue does good critical videos when he actually makes videos. Mark Brown can be a little hit-or-miss with his game mechanic dissections but I think his are the best out of anyone doing that kind of video--most others are a lot more superficial, not to mention not as well-presented or edited. Harrow fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Mar 8, 2017 |
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Mar 8, 2017 22:27
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The sequel to Shadow of Mordor is looking more and more promising. You're raising a huge army from the start now to bring down fortresses, you can have spies infilitrate those first, you can ride fire-breathing dragons, use the ring. The nemesis system got expanded a lot where for example the abilities of orcs you promote in your army will influence the defenses of your fortresses etc. I'm hopeful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9D7RTPI7yM
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Mar 8, 2017 22:30
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they call it waypoint because you're looking for the exit
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Mar 8, 2017 22:32
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MinibarMatchman posted:Kotaku, the normal feed of their crap aside, has surprisingly detailed and nuanced reviews nowadays. I remember the ones they wrote for AC Unity and Syndicate which were way better than they had any right to be. I did notice that after they ditched review scores the quality of their reviews seemed to improve. Which is good, and I hope more places adopt the practice. Death to review scores. I just avoid checking the site in the morning so that I don't waste any brain power reading headlines from Ashcraft or Fahey. I wish Polygon published the author's name on articles before I clicked so I could avoid anything written by Gies. But that's how they get your clicks I guess.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:33
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Palpek posted:The sequel to Shadow of Mordor is looking more and more promising. You're raising a huge army from the start now to bring down fortresses, you can have spies infilitrate those first, you can ride fire-breathing dragons, use the ring. The nemesis system got expanded a lot where for example the abilities of orcs you promote in your army will influence the defenses of your fortresses etc. I'm hopeful: One thing I wasn't clear on (maybe it's because I didn't turn the audio on): what happens when that sniper takes out the orc he's fighting? Did the player command that or did having a sniper in his army just end up being good luck? Doesn't look like any commands were entered. Also, something potentially disappointing is that huge orc/troll who takes down the gate. Says in his stats that he's a battering ram but is he ever able to ram through the gate on his own? Because in that vid it's the player who really triggers it.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:35
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I still haven't played Shadow of Mordor, and I like stealth games.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:35
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Lobok posted:One thing I wasn't clear on (maybe it's because I didn't turn the audio on): what happens when that sniper takes out the orc he's fighting? Did the player command that or did having a sniper in his army just end up being good luck? Doesn't look like any commands were entered. The stage was obviously super scripted so I wouldn't base what's actually possible on that. But yeah the sniper dude was like a random event where there's a chance one of your guys will distinguish themselves by helping you out in a pinch. Supposedly.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:39
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The problem with serious game critics is the same one as serious critics in any artistic medium: you have to be kind of loving crazy to care enough to do it. See also: rock critics (Christgau). Roger Ebert and Tom Ewing are the exceptions to the rule.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:43
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What does "serious" mean in that context
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Mar 8, 2017 22:50
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In that context, it only means "devotes their whole life to it and attempts or succeeds at making it their primary "job" in life". Pretty much "people who want to be taken seriously" in other words. e: I guess all I'm saying is "you have to be crazy to devote your whole life to any one artistic thing, doubly so if you're devoting your life to talking about other people doing that thing"
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Mar 8, 2017 22:54
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To spawn lots of art critics the art needs to be challenging or thought-provoking or it needs to say interesting things. Most games are barely above the level of being derivative of the genre movies they so clearly ape. I'm not sure there are enough games that come out in any given year to make it worth someone's while to write about what games are saying or meaning, especially if it's also been done in lots of other games before (or the movies that they copy). Maybe as games as a whole, though? Instead of specific games. Like writing about the patterns that appear or how attitudes and outlooks overall are changing.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:58
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Critics don't need to only write about what a game says or means, not because those things aren't important (they are) but because those don't constitute all of, or even most of, the play experience. Being able to clearly discuss the experience of gameplay, and distinguish it from other experiences -- that is, to describe in words something that is primarily felt and hard to describe in words -- is probably the main skill a game critic needs. This actually came up in a Waypoint podcast some time ago. Titanfall 2, COD Infinite Warfare, and Doom are all shootman games, but a good critic will be able to communicate the differences in playing each of them, differences that have nothing to do with story or signification. Since most game reviewers are already terrible writers, that kind of challenge is probably insurmountable
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Mar 8, 2017 23:08
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precision posted:In that context, it only means "devotes their whole life to it and attempts or succeeds at making it their primary "job" in life". I don't agree with that at all. Or maybe I'm not clear on what you mean by "devoting your life to one thing", because lots of people devote their lives to one thing, such as pretty much any professional, be they doctors, journalists, lawyers, athletes, scientists, teachers... I don't see what's crazy about a professional critic being a professional critic. It's easier than being a professional artist, that's for sure
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Mar 8, 2017 23:14
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Palpek posted:The sequel to Shadow of Mordor is looking more and more promising. You're raising a huge army from the start now to bring down fortresses, you can have spies infilitrate those first, you can ride fire-breathing dragons, use the ring. The nemesis system got expanded a lot where for example the abilities of orcs you promote in your army will influence the defenses of your fortresses etc. I'm hopeful: Man I hope this is good- Nemesis system was great but it didn't feel like there was a whole lot... there in the first game. Ending was also obviously unfinished/rushed.
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Mar 8, 2017 23:20
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Critics don't need to only write about what a game says or means, not because those things aren't important (they are) but because those don't constitute all of, or even most of, the play experience. Being able to clearly discuss the experience of gameplay, and distinguish it from other experiences -- that is, to describe in words something that is primarily felt and hard to describe in words -- is probably the main skill a game critic needs. This actually came up in a Waypoint podcast some time ago. Titanfall 2, COD Infinite Warfare, and Doom are all shootman games, but a good critic will be able to communicate the differences in playing each of them, differences that have nothing to do with story or signification. Since most game reviewers are already terrible writers, that kind of challenge is probably insurmountable Yeah, not all criticism needs to be about "reading" the game necessarily--a lot of fascinating criticism can come from exploring how game systems and features can influence how a game feels to play or what the overall experience of playing it is. It's sort of analogous to film criticism exploring the technical aspects of film, from camera to sound to editing, and how they're used to achieve certain effects. Luckily, there's more game criticism about exploring mechanics and their use/effects than any other kind of good game criticism, but it's still fairly rare and even rarer to see it done well.
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Mar 8, 2017 23:27
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Speaking of people making video content on Zelda: Matt and Woolie from Super Best Friends look at Zelda boxart
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Mar 8, 2017 23:33
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Palpek posted:The sequel to Shadow of Mordor is looking more and more promising. You're raising a huge army from the start now to bring down fortresses, you can have spies infilitrate those first, you can ride fire-breathing dragons, use the ring. The nemesis system got expanded a lot where for example the abilities of orcs you promote in your army will influence the defenses of your fortresses etc. I'm hopeful:
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Mar 8, 2017 23:35
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Jay Rust posted:I don't agree with that at all. Or maybe I'm not clear on what you mean by "devoting your life to one thing", because lots of people devote their lives to one thing, such as pretty much any professional, be they doctors, journalists, lawyers, athletes, scientists, teachers... I don't see what's crazy about a professional critic being a professional critic. It's easier than being a professional artist, that's for sure Well, just from my own experience as both a musician and a music critic, I find it far "easier" to make music than write about it, and I think that in general I am a pretty great musician but a pretty poo poo music writer - and yet even I have made far more money from writing about it than from playing shows, merch and actual music sales combined. So yeah, you're right that in one sense it is a lot easier to make it your day job.
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Mar 8, 2017 23:40
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Supersonic Shine posted:If this is just Shadow of Mordor but with more immersive stuff then I'm in. I'm not particularly hard to please. SoM but we finished it this time
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Mar 8, 2017 23:47
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All I actually want from games journalists is for them to regurgitate press releases so I can find out about games coming out because publishers don't send those to me
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Mar 9, 2017 00:04
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All I want is ethical games journalism
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Mar 9, 2017 00:06
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It's worth pointing out that there's actually quite a bit of academic criticism around video games but nobody reads that stuff outside of the person who wrote it and maybe one or two of the people who showed up on that block of the conference and saw the presentation.
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Mar 9, 2017 00:30
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It may just be selection bias but I also think a lot of criticism on video games tends to skew in a negative direction. Too much "here's why this game is racist/sexist" and not enough "here's how this game portrays people or issues well and what the industry can learn from it. "
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Mar 9, 2017 00:56
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In Training posted:It's worth pointing out that there's actually quite a bit of academic criticism around video games but nobody reads that stuff outside of the person who wrote it and maybe one or two of the people who showed up on that block of the conference and saw the presentation. That's true of any academic criticism, really. It's a slow process for ideas to filter through academia into other academic writing into more popular writing and eventually into public discourse (where everyone misuses terms and dilutes them so they're meaningless). It's the circle of life. Video game academia is definitely in its infancy, though, so it's even smaller than usual. PantsBandit posted:It may just be selection bias but I also think a lot of criticism on video games tends to skew in a negative direction. Too much "here's why this game is racist/sexist" and not enough "here's how this game portrays people or issues well and what the industry can learn from it. " That's partially selection bias, but partially just that it's what a lot of writers trying their hand at criticism with a hot-button issue that seems simpler on its surface than it actually is. And when it actually is done well, I think both writers and readers have a tough time separating "this piece of media does these things that have problems" and "this piece of media is bad and shouldn't exist."
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Mar 9, 2017 00:57
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In Training posted:It's worth pointing out that there's actually quite a bit of academic criticism around video games but nobody reads that stuff outside of the person who wrote it and maybe one or two of the people who showed up on that block of the conference and saw the presentation. Stop describing my life 
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Mar 9, 2017 00:58
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PantsBandit posted:It may just be selection bias but I also think a lot of criticism on video games tends to skew in a negative direction. Too much "here's why this game is racist/sexist" and not enough "here's how this game portrays people or issues well and what the industry can learn from it. " Academic games stuff is too young to be messing with identity politics, it's like 25 minute presentations on the ball physics in FIFA2014
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Mar 9, 2017 01:00
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I read dev stuff and retrospectives because they are very interesting to me. I don't read reviews or listen to podcasts or watch YouTube videos unless they're made by someone I'm already sure is funny. Unless CBA catches me on a slow day, I guess. When it comes to criticism and thinking about games in a broader context, I'll do it a fair bit but almost exclusively with people I know who like doing that. The reason being, if I write about it online, I run even odds of no one caring or whining that I'm attacking their game instead of "just playing it" or something. But speaking of criticism and taking a deeper look...Nasgate posted:I think the Zelda and Horizon comparison is interesting because it really brings forth the graphics vs gameplay debate in a new light. Graphics and Physics engines have both developed to the point where you can't have the best of both worlds. This is an incredibly insightful and I didn't think about third person character placement on screen in any indepth capacity until reading this. It's interesting to think about and you know the developers and designers put a ton of thought into this stuff. It's neat to think back through why they make the decisions they do because of where they want the player focused or how they want them to experience the game and characters. bloodychill fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 01:01
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Serf posted:I find that Polygon, RPS and Kotaku generally have a 50/50 ratio on decent articles when it comes to video games. Waypoint is really good and I dig their output in a big way. Hopefully we get more Waypoints in the future and fewer IGNs and Gamespots. I have great news if you're looking for more content like waypoint, here's a great site to expand their recent goty coverage
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Mar 9, 2017 01:19
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Kai Tave posted:Yeah but there's no money in this though. Gamers say they want video games to be considered art but the minute you start subjecting them to the sort of critical analysis that gets applied to art it immediately turns around and becomes "god why are trying to shove your agenda into this, just play the game and have fun, jeez." Have you considered that the people saying these two things are not, in fact, the same people?
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Mar 9, 2017 01:40
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Mar 9, 2017 01:52
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Anyone here play their vidya games on a projector instead of a traditional TV? how well does that work out? It's something I've wanted to try for a while but couldn't work out the logistics, like where to put the projector so I'm not in the way but consoles can still be hooked up.
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