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Convergence posted:Popular science press is generally complete bullshit. So it goes
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Mar 7, 2017 04:47
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Cingulate posted:Yeah, I was wondering about reality It is my reality. This is a very american idea, that access to a car is obligatory. I don't have a license, nor do i really feel in a hurry to get one. European city design with high density clusters with poor car accessibility and heavy integration of public transport makes this a non issue in most places except the really rural areas. Even in rural areas there almost always a public transport alternative, even if it's only a couple of times a day. To answer your question, maybe? It encourages electric transports, but who knows if any trips would actually be saved. People like to shop in stores regardless. The bigger transports the more efficient they will get, but the more complicated the system for sorting out delivery. I don't think having a driven vehicle driving or flying a single packet to a single destination will be any major efficiency gain. At what distances is a single vehicle making a trip more efficient then encouraging people too bike to a collection center or just having it delivered by a delivery service? You could potentially make some sort of mini warehouse in the back of a truck-drone, and then some kind of dispensing mechanic, like a giant package vending machine that could make the rounds. (So basically a robot UPS). That could be extremely efficient, especially if it has the ability to combine loads (say, free delivery of groceries if you do it on the same trip as your Amazon delivery).
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Mar 7, 2017 17:16
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Convergence posted:Popular science press is generally complete bullshit. I treat scientific research group press releases as advertising copy. Both the journalist and the research group have a pretty big incentive to inflate the importance and relevance of their work. Hell, the researchers themselves often do it in their academic journal papers, but the spin there is usually a little more subtle and the falsehoods more often tend to be of omission.
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Mar 7, 2017 17:53
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A large trebuchet and parachutes on the packages seems like an energy-efficient solution for package delivery.
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Mar 7, 2017 18:06
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fishmech posted:Negative energy savings. Flight is very expensive in terms of energy expended, because of the need to maintain lift - and you'd need multiple drone trips to carry a large amount of product. What if we fired groceries out of a big cannon into individual nets everyone has on their roofs? Edit: ^^^ You son of a bitch
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Mar 7, 2017 18:54
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:A large trebuchet and parachutes on the packages seems like an energy-efficient solution for package delivery. Pneumatic tubes for all homes and offices.
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Mar 7, 2017 20:54
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How about wheeled delivery bots since they already exist. Delivery robots to replace takeaway drivers in London trial
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Mar 7, 2017 22:17
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Saukkis posted:How about wheeled delivery bots since they already exist. Part of me hopes that gangs of homeless people will organize to ambush them and pinch the food.
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Mar 7, 2017 22:20
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Gangs of homeless delivery drivers put out of work by the very same robot, jamming up the wheels with wooden shoes.
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Mar 8, 2017 03:54
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White Rock posted:It is my reality. This is a very american idea, that access to a car is obligatory. Meanwhile car ownership is exploding worldwide. This is a very tiny euro country idea, that america is the only country with people who like cars. China loving loves 'em. Europe increasingly as well. At any rate autonomous vehicles are right around the corner and how we use transportation in general is going to be near unrecognizable in 20 years.
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Mar 8, 2017 05:36
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Meanwhile car ownership is exploding worldwide. This is a very tiny euro country idea, that america is the only country with people who like cars. China loving loves 'em. Europe increasingly as well. At any rate autonomous vehicles are right around the corner and how we use transportation in general is going to be near unrecognizable in 20 years. Car ownership has nothing to do with infrastructure design, you cannot forbid people to buy cars but you can make choices between say upgrading rail or building a highway. Or closing off streets to car traffic. Narrowing roads, reclaiming land. Make 4 lane streets with parking to 2 lane streets with parking. Or just increase public transport spending. If people want to spend money on transit on a car for transit between cities or the occasional trips to some big box store, sure, whatever. A decent rail system will do much to alleviate, but if your taking a plane or a car it doesn't really matter from a energy standpoint. However, Intra-city transport by car, commuting and errands, should be discouraged as much as possible. Especially in terms of walk and bike ability many cities in America have a completely different model than European cities. Biking is discouraged by bad bike infra in many cities, even ones with good public transport like New York. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2THe_10dYs --- Also in what way is autonomous design gonna help efficiency? Do you see a future of small single seater electric taxis? Because a taxi or a buss with an AI is just as inefficient as one without one, with all it's drawbacks except no need to pay a driver.
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Mar 8, 2017 11:47
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Meanwhile car ownership is exploding worldwide. This is a very tiny euro country idea, that america is the only country with people who like cars. China loving loves 'em. Europe increasingly as well. At any rate autonomous vehicles are right around the corner and how we use transportation in general is going to be near unrecognizable in 20 years. Yeah we'll also have fusion power too. And the autonomous cars will fly
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Mar 8, 2017 16:21
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OwlFancier posted:Part of me hopes that gangs of homeless people will organize to ambush them and pinch the food. If I see those robots I will pinch the food.
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Mar 8, 2017 16:33
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White Rock posted:Also in what way is autonomous design gonna help efficiency? Do you see a future of small single seater electric taxis? Because a taxi or a buss with an AI is just as inefficient as one without one, with all it's drawbacks except no need to pay a driver. Utilization is the basic argument, I think - consider how many cars are sitting in parking lots or driveways at any given time. Most passenger cars are in use, what, less than 5% of the time? Being able to increase that significantly by allowing people to rent autonomous vehicles as needed reduces the number of cars manufactured. That's less relevant for taxis and buses, but integrating driver AIs with software that manages the system as a whole should be able to increase the efficiency and utilization of those services. Imagine a city where people come to a bus stop (or fire up an app in advance), enter their destination, and the bus network generates dynamic routes to accommodate the current requests.
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Mar 8, 2017 16:42
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Utilization is the basic argument, I think - consider how many cars are sitting in parking lots or driveways at any given time. Most passenger cars are in use, what, less than 5% of the time? Yeah, but most cars are in use at the same time, namely while commuting.
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Mar 8, 2017 17:49
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Utilization is the basic argument, I think - consider how many cars are sitting in parking lots or driveways at any given time. Most passenger cars are in use, what, less than 5% of the time? Being able to increase that significantly by allowing people to rent autonomous vehicles as needed reduces the number of cars manufactured. Uh, that's basically all wrong. We actually need to manufacture a lot more vehicles in order to have a large enough fleet of autonomous vehicles to replace all those cars that were already manufactured. Remember: the average car in America was built 12 years ago, and new vehicles sold each year is relatively small - 17 million new vehicles were sold last year and that was one of the biggest years for sales. Lots of those vehicles are being sold into fleet usage too, so unlike personal cars they will be driven for extended times throughout the day, or must be kept ready and available at a construction site or similar situation, where having it trundle off to pick someone up downtown would not be acceptable. There's also a ton of vehicles out in rural areas where waiting for dispatch would be impractical, as well as dispatching the vehicles to others while the owner isn't using them would be impractical. And then don't forget that a ton of people who use cars, use them at all the same time. We call it rush hour. If I'm busy being driven to work, nobody else is going to be able to use my car at the same time. So you actually won't reduce car usage all that much just by having them sharable. If we didn't speed up new vehicle production, it'd take about 10 years to replace ~2/3 of the private vehicle fleet in this country with autonomous cars, assuming every single car sold from then on was autonomous. 2/3 is probably the point where the availability of them is really enough to cut down new purchases as long as enough people choose to share or rent those cars and have schedules that allow for that to work. The entire amount of private vehicles could be replaced in ~15 year. CombatInformatiker posted:Yeah, but most cars are in use at the same time, namely while commuting. And there's also long stretches of time with minimal car demand, even though there'd be lots of cars available. Like say midnight to 5 am in most metro areas.
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Mar 8, 2017 19:18
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the efficient solution to mass transportation is mass transit not carpooling and the rule of cool dictates that the mass transit should be maglev because gently caress yeah flying trains
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Mar 8, 2017 19:34
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With my experience in City Skylines, I know the best way to deal with traffic is to build an accessible, well funded public transportation system including bike paths, buses, light rail, and passenger trains. And also make it totally impractical to drive to major destinations everywhere in the city by car. I have nearly 100% ridership on some trains because it is always waaaay quicker to get from suburb A to shopping district B.
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Mar 8, 2017 22:58
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fishmech posted:And then don't forget that a ton of people who use cars, use them at all the same time. We call it rush hour. If I'm busy being driven to work, nobody else is going to be able to use my car at the same time. So you actually won't reduce car usage all that much just by having them sharable. Most of those cars have a single driver without any passengers. Making the cars shareable could significantly increase the percentage of cars participating in carpools, which reduces car usage overall Better access to bike paths and public transportation is the real way to reduce car usage but autonomous shareable cars do have the ability to help, sometime in the distant future maybe
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Mar 8, 2017 23:02
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QuarkJets posted:Most of those cars have a single driver without any passengers. Making the cars shareable could significantly increase the percentage of cars participating in carpools, which reduces car usage overall You have absolutely 0 need to have self-driving cars in order to carpool. Carpool usage remains limited due to limited convergence of routes, especially in metro areas where there isn't convenient public transit on the destination area- it's no big deal to carpool with someone works 2 miles away if you can just catch the subway, it's a big deal if your only option is to walk because the guy who's driving isn't going to go out of his way. And covering that distance by car during rush hour on city streets is still likely to take quite a lot of time and not really be acceptable. It's not so much of an issue that the origin at the homes doesn't tend to join up. because slugging park and rides tend to develop when you have sufficient carpool demand. fishmech fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Mar 8, 2017 |
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Mar 8, 2017 23:21
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Carpooling is also not hugely popular since a lot of people are not too keen on letting strangers in their cars on a regular basis.
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Mar 9, 2017 00:07
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Sun Wu Kampf posted:Carpooling is also not hugely popular since a lot of people are not too keen on letting strangers in their cars on a regular basis. Don't people generally do it with co-workers?
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Mar 9, 2017 00:12
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_rapid_transit Automated car sharing is already a thing being prototyped.
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Mar 9, 2017 00:17
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Baronjutter posted:Don't people generally do it with co-workers? No? I mean sure, the ideal situation is if you all work at the same job and happen to live very close to each other. But these days it'll tend to be just people who live kinda near to you and work kinda near to you, and often not even be the same people on a regular basis. You'd often be lucky to get people who merely work in the same building and happen to live close enough to you for the traditional style of carpool to work. In places like DC that are heavily into carpooling, sluglines develop, which is basically people who need some other people in the car to get onto HOV-only roadways during rush hour, and will pick whoever is there at the nearest park and ride to do so. It's typical that the driver has a sign in a passenger side window saying the general neighborhood they're going to (e.g. in DC, Foggy Bottom or Federal Center for instance), and then the passengers just pick whatever car looks to be going closest to where they need to go. Nobody involves pays anything on a normal day, and there's no expectation that the person who took you into the city that morning is going to take you back out in the evening.
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Mar 9, 2017 00:25
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Carpooling could become more attractive option with autonomous cars if you don't own the car anymore, not as much opposition for letting strangers in. And routing option would be improved with the option of switching cars. Walk to the street, hop in a random carpool going in the right direction, the car will communicate with some other carpool and agree pick up spot for the second leg of the trip.
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Mar 9, 2017 00:37
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Saukkis posted:Carpooling could become more attractive option with autonomous cars if you don't own the car anymore, not as much opposition for letting strangers in. And routing option would be improved with the option of switching cars. Walk to the street, hop in a random carpool going in the right direction, the car will communicate with some other carpool and agree pick up spot for the second leg of the trip. I disagree, because a lot of people would probably get mad about paying for their ride and then having to be with someone else. Also having to switch carpools even once makes it into A lovely Bus You Pay More For, which is hardly going to be a mass-accepted proposition, and is again likely to have congestion issues.
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Mar 9, 2017 00:55
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When people make the choice to buy a car its heavily dependent on," how good public transport is?" If the public infrastructure isn't good enough, people will be heavily car centric. The public infrastructure needs to be built and then people will shift from owning cars to largely using PT. In my city (Melbourne) the public transport infrastructure is fairly good and many people use it to get into and out of the city. But that's largely all its good for. Its not nearly as comfortable as it should be either. Express bus services: My university operates an express bus service between its campuses, about 10km a part. There is so much demand for this service that those buses have been absolutely packed regardless of time of day, people are getting left behind. There is a public transport bus that connects those two destinations but takes two to three times longer because of all the stops it needs to make. There is demand for such express bus services but, no one seems to care because buses are for poor people and they can wait? One of the most obvious connections is between different train lines that go into the city, (ring bus express service if you will). /rant
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Mar 9, 2017 01:04
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fishmech posted:You have absolutely 0 need to have self-driving cars in order to carpool. Carpool usage remains limited due to limited convergence of routes, especially in metro areas where there isn't convenient public transit on the destination area- it's no big deal to carpool with someone works 2 miles away if you can just catch the subway, it's a big deal if your only option is to walk because the guy who's driving isn't going to go out of his way. And covering that distance by car during rush hour on city streets is still likely to take quite a lot of time and not really be acceptable. Shared taxis became more popular when places like Uber made it an easily selectable option. If your car can become an automated taxi, then that makes "taxi" sharing during rush hour more reliable / cheaper, which should increase the popularity of that option
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Mar 9, 2017 05:21
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QuarkJets posted:Shared taxis became more popular when places like Uber made it an easily selectable option. If your car can become an automated taxi, then that makes "taxi" sharing during rush hour more reliable / cheaper, which should increase the popularity of that option Only slightly more popular, they're still a tiny fraction of Uber rides or of rides with traditional taxis for that matter. The reason is because people who are already shelling out extra money to get around tend to want to have their trip done first and fastest as possible in a car. And relying on any realistic change to make the prices discount enough to really draw people in doesn't sound like it'll work nearly as well as existing ad hoc carpool systems do in places like the Bay Area and DC. Meanwhile other places don't have to rely on such things to begin with because they have better regional transport for commuters.
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Mar 9, 2017 05:32
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fishmech posted:Only slightly more popular, they're still a tiny fraction of Uber rides or of rides with traditional taxis for that matter. The reason is because people who are already shelling out extra money to get around tend to want to have their trip done first and fastest as possible in a car. Okay but you've already gone from "definitely not more popular" to "only slightly more popular", and my only position was "autonomous cars could help somewhat". So we're now on the same page and are just discussing the degree of effectiveness Also, the degree to which people want a dedicated car to shuttle only themselves around instead of carpooling is a function of the cost of both options. Autonomous cars drive down the average price of rideshares, cheaper rideshares means more people willing to eat the additional 10-30 minutes that it takes to get somewhere.
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Mar 9, 2017 06:17
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QuarkJets posted:Okay but you've already gone from "definitely not more popular" to "only slightly more popular", and my only position was "autonomous cars could help somewhat". So we're now on the same page and are just discussing the degree of effectiveness At that point autonomous vehicles become ubiquitous id rather see some sort of smaller vehicle for local transport and larger vehicles for commuting. How are you imagining these autonomous vehicles? If we lift the constraints from just 4 seater cars, we could have a variety of vehicles, say autonomous minibuses, or single seater vehicles, or just regular old buses. Especially for America where the road network is so prevalent.
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Mar 9, 2017 10:10
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Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:With my experience in City Skylines, I know the best way to deal with traffic is to build an accessible, well funded public transportation system including bike paths, buses, light rail, and passenger trains. QuarkJets posted:Most of those cars have a single driver without any passengers. Making the cars shareable could significantly increase the percentage of cars participating in carpools, which reduces car usage overall QuarkJets posted:Okay but you've already gone from "definitely not more popular" to "only slightly more popular", and my only position was "autonomous cars could help somewhat". So we're now on the same page and are just discussing the degree of effectiveness All cars are technically shareable and nobody shares them because it's never worth the hassle. Even with a pie-in-the-sky self-driving system it just turns your car into a cab, and the driver costs are not just for actual driving. Plus the first time a car comes back with interior dirt/damage, the owner will realize it's (you guessed it) not worth renting it out. evil_bunnY fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 10:52
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evil_bunnY posted:That alone makes it a better game than sim city
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Mar 9, 2017 10:56
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Cingulate posted:I think QuarkJets suggests this would decrease said hassles. This is on top of the gig-economy abuses common to all supposedly-disruptive sharing schemes.
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Mar 9, 2017 11:05
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evil_bunnY posted:The only hassle it might reduce is custody logistics. You still need to transfer access control (or have a system to automate that, and as an IT worker, I can tell you it's just asking for trouble), and you're still gonna go "gently caress it" the first time you have your car scheduled to come back in time to go on a date with your wife or grab your kids from school and it's late/dirty. I'm not even talking about scenarios where your car is picking up people while you're not in it. The ability to press a button to have your car fetch up to 3 additional passengers during your normal commute to/from work would probably increase carpooling rates by a non-negligible amount. All that you'd need to automate is the driving and the pickup logistics. I think that a lot of people would probably be willing to add 20 minutes to their commute for an additional $20 If you have a date that you want to make or need to pick up the kids then you just don't opt-in for that afternoon's commuter carpool and the car just drives you home / wherever you need to go
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Mar 9, 2017 11:31
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QuarkJets posted:I think that a lot of people would probably be willing to add 20 minutes to their commute for an additional $20 Maybe I'm not one with the car-commuter mindset because I almost never drive one and commute somewhere with decent (but not great) bike infra.
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Mar 9, 2017 11:40
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evil_bunnY posted:gently caress that noise so much. I would gladly pay $20 to reduce my commute by 10mn.
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Mar 9, 2017 12:43
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evil_bunnY posted:gently caress that noise so much. I would gladly pay $20 to reduce my commute by 10mn. My commute is twice as long because I ride a bicycle to work but that's a whole different thing that I wish was a possibility in more places.
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Mar 9, 2017 13:12
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QuarkJets posted:I think that a lot of people would probably be willing to add 20 minutes to their commute for an additional $20 Now, perhaps there is an opening for arranging carpooling that doesn't require going far out of your way, something like Uship but for finding fellow commuters along your route, if that doesn't already exist.
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Mar 9, 2017 14:45
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Who would be creating, hosting and maintaining this hypothetical centralized car sharing platform? How would it be different than the sparsely-used UberPOOL, just without drivers?
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Mar 9, 2017 16:40
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