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I don't think Scarlett Johansson has ever been hired for her emotional range
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Mar 5, 2017 02:04
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Nobody cares about the comic. Actually, I do
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Mar 5, 2017 03:22
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cosmically_cosmic posted:Also the point wasn't that the Major needs a body, at end when she merges with project 2501 they specifically say they're going to create a new form of life that will spread throughout the net. I mean I get that you really want to lecture people on what the film is about, but when your dismissive know-it-all points miss really simple parts of the film its very hard to take you seriously. Nothing has yet been presented for me to dismiss. You are giving a plot synopsis based on expository dialogue, not analysis. The character at the end talks about how she can go anywhere because "the net is vast and infinite," but she is obviously embodied, and looks out over the actual city. i.e. not 'cyberspace'. Major cannot actually travel to other galaxies. The same is true of 2501. You cannot have an internet without infrastructure - without such as phone lines and electricity. The 'puppetmaster' always had a body, long before its incarnation as a blonde woman, although in a more abstracted sense.
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Mar 5, 2017 03:50
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You cannot have an internet without infrastructure - without such as phone lines and electricity. Why?
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Mar 5, 2017 04:39
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Nothing has yet been presented for me to dismiss. You are giving a plot synopsis based on expository dialogue, not analysis. First, the city is a metaphor for cyberspace, you know, being a center of human activity, connectivity, and communication, and secondly, the Major/Puppetmaster can travel to other galaxies: a being of pure information like the hybrid Kusanagi can reproduce itself into packets and broadcast itself across the universe like a radio/TV signal until it finds a suitable receiver that can "hear" it, interpret it and download it. The net IS vast and infinite. But why are we talking about this, because, it's highly likely, NONE OF THIS poo poo IS GOING TO BE IN THE 2017 FILM!
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Mar 5, 2017 04:52
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UmOk posted:Why? Because the fundamental relationship formed between instruments, tools, and other artificial creations is formed by human beings, not the abstract, superficial content in and of itself. This is why Ghost in the Shell is about cops tracking garbage men and ethnically-coded, 'indigenous' criminals. It's emphasizing the 'trash' of society - the refuse of technological utopianism - which is framed as explicitly crypto-fascist in the smiling, sociopathic face of Major as she assassinates a victim and then taunts a survivor. Characterizing Kusanagi as a 'Terminator' figure completely ignores her Cronenbergian, visceral interest in the possibility of her own destruction, because she is not able to procreate. In the infamous, philosophical fishing boat drinking scene, Major emphatically praises the inevitability of human beings pushing technology to its ultimate conceptual limit - which then becomes self-interpretive because she really is a robot. In the midst of this, a vaguely demonic being is seduced into taking the form of this 'amputated' female body, which is explicitly just a characterizing lure of the Puppet Master. Somehow Section 6 knows that the Puppet Master will like this specific body - this is never explained because it's not important. Oshii unceremoniously represents 2501 coming into this angelic external form, offering explicit characterization. This decision is not made because the Puppet Master actually needs an external form, it continues doing magic bullshit throughout the story that pursues his ultimate objective, which is to reproduce. The result is, as Innocence expands upon, 'God coming into human form,' but represented in a cyberpunk scandalization of both the creation myth and the nativity myth, with Batou becoming a Joseph figure, and Mary absorbed into the spirit of Christ itself, a pan-theistic trinity harkening back to the 'hidden Christians' Biblical apocrypha. The "punk" part of it is that this mythical imagery has only come about because of exactly what Kusanagi praised, which is not actually the ethical direction of the human species, but specifically its unguided utilitarian rationalism, which leads to her being a crypto-fascist agent who gets naked and sky-dives and smiles while assassinating traitors. It's way more Point Break than The Matrix. Young Freud posted:But why are we talking about this, because, it's highly likely, NONE OF THIS poo poo IS GOING TO BE IN THE 2017 FILM! Exactly - all we have to comment upon is the latest trailer for the '17 film, which is about the same thing as the '95 film, just with slightly different characterizations of the 'Adam & Eve' figures.
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Mar 5, 2017 05:13
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UmOk posted:Why? The internet is made up of technology. If that technology disappeared or was destroyed then the internet would disappear along with it, and bye bye Project 2501.
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Mar 5, 2017 10:21
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UmOk posted:Why? The parts for your cellular phone come from around the world. It was assembled in a factory and then shipped to your location. The phone itself requires power to charge the battery. Data from your phone is transmitted around the world via radio towers, cables, satellites, and so-on. All of those things were made by people, and require such as maintenance. The girl-Major uses deceptive language. She avoids saying "the corporate networks are vast and infinite", while she smiles, because that sounds kind of bad doesn't it? Young Freud posted:First, the city is a metaphor for cyberspace, you know, being a center of human activity, connectivity, and communication, and secondly, the Major/Puppetmaster can travel to other galaxies: a being of pure information like the hybrid Kusanagi can reproduce itself into packets and broadcast itself across the universe like a radio/TV signal until it finds a suitable receiver that can "hear" it, interpret it and download it. The net IS vast and infinite. The city is not a metaphor for the internet. It is a literal city full of people who are using the internet. The 'metaphor for the internet' in the film is - as K.Waste notes - the infinite sky reflected in pools of garbage water. This is what the Major contemplates while travelling through the city, and when she surreptitiously reenacts her birth fantasy with the diving. The key point is that this is Major's metaphor, that she came up with; the internet is not actually a 'mirror universe'. She simply dreams of diving down and resurfacing into another world. 2501 uses the same metaphor, talking about how it emerged from 'the sea of information'. We actually see how the internet works with the green numbers flying around the polygon cityscapes. Those green polygons are Oshii's metaphor: there is no commercial side of the internet in the film. There's no 'social media'. (The one dude carries around a paper photo!) Internet is depicted entirely as the accumulated data from countless omnipresent sensors, tapped into by the police-state heroes purely for use in various tactical situations. This link between information and weaponry is fairly obvious from the opening scene with the transforming gun-briefcases, and talk of how programmers are classified as weapons. Everything is thought of in terms of its usefulness as a weapon, including both the human mind and body. The character at the end does not exist as pure information. She cannot send herself as a packet. There is no receiver in other galaxies. Even if there were, you've still run into the teleportation problem: Child-Major can only clone herself, and then those clones might eventually 'merge' with others. 2501's speech at the end is loaded with ideological propaganda: 'a strong system requires diversity', 'progress is a gradual cycle', 'self-sacrifice is necessary', 'the survival of your genes is everything', etc. You have to understand that it was designed to be this way. It was created as a weapon, and it is doing exactly what it was built to do - only too well for its creators. This is classic Skynet, and it means - as K. Waste noted - that 2501 is a demonic or even satanic character. "What I think is that today’s capitalism thrives on differences. I mean even naïve positivist psychologists propose to describe today’s subjectivity in terms like multiple subject, fixed-identity subject, a subject who constantly reinvents itself, and so on. So my big problem with this is the painting of the enemy as some kind of self-identified stable substantial patriarch to which these multiple identities and constant reinventing should be opposed. I think that this is a false problem; I am not impressed by this problem. I think that this is a certain logic, totally within the framework of today’s capitalism, where again, capitalism, in order to reproduce itself, to function in today’s condition of consumption society, the crazy dynamics of the market, no longer needs or can function with the traditional fixed patriarchal subject. It needs a subject constantly reinventing himself." -Zizek SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Mar 5, 2017 |
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Mar 5, 2017 17:47
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https://twitter.com/GhostInShell/status/838479496390967297
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Mar 5, 2017 22:15
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Uuhhhh, I'd have to listen to the whole track without it being chopped up like that, but that sounded like the laziest wub wub I've ever heard
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Mar 5, 2017 22:26
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starkebn posted:Uuhhhh, I'd have to listen to the whole track without it being chopped up like that, but that sounded like the laziest wub wub I've ever heard Not Steve Aoki's finest work there.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:47
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"Incomparable"? I'm sure there's at least one thing that remix can and will be compared to.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:50
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Do these people have some kind of fetish for loving up original material? I don't even want to ask what might be next.
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Mar 5, 2017 22:51
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ynohtna posted:"Incomparable"? I think they're calling Steve Aoki incomparable.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:00
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I really hope they'll put that thing into the movie.  For serious though, i think they just asked some rando musician to remix it, and he looked at the tiny fee and threw together the quickest, dumbest thing that satisfied the contract.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:01
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Mithaldu posted:I really hope they'll put that thing into the movie. You know that poo poo's going to be playing over the beginning of the closing credits.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:02
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Rough Lobster posted:I think they're calling Steve Aoki incomparable. There are countless things I can easily compare Steve Aoki to.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:02
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Haha, good god, this is the man they asked to remix that: https://twitter.com/steveaoki/status/837387233501929472
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Mar 5, 2017 23:05
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dubstep and edm are a blight on "remixes"
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Mar 6, 2017 07:45
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This movie looks good from trailers, if a bit spoiler-y. I would give it 6/10 Terminator Genisyses in the spoils-the-movie department.
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Mar 6, 2017 07:55
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Dmitri-9 posted:I agree with SMG for once. I recently rewatched the movies after having been a long time fan of Stand Alone Complex and they were more bleak than most cyberpunk but not in an effective way. It's hard to like or care about the Major and Batou when they are just an immoral arm of a corrupt government fighting itself to no conclusion. The dystopian state of their society goes totally unexamined while the post-human themes aren't developed to a satisfying degree. To contrast with television show is is apparent that she is a protector of a society that she likes and she is proud of her skills as a hacker and commando even though her team gets involved in some dirt. The film reminds me of super violent OVAs like Kite but Sawa is more sympathetic because of the element of coercion in her story. Actually the dystopian state of their society is expressed pretty well by the claustrophobic and decaying state of the city they live in. Both the original movie and Innocence express a sense of melancholy and despair as consumerism, over-population, war and technology is basically ruining the world around them. Everything about the original movie is extremely claustrophobic; buildings are literally almost stacked on top of each other, housing is limited to extremely small spaces for the poor and mega apartments for the rich. Everything is decaying rapidly and the decay is left or built over by new and more modern buildings, which squeezes the poor into worse states of squalor. Examples of this are the alleyways that the gun-thug runs down, showing (i'm hasten to add photo realistic looking) examples of architecture and buildings that give a nightmarish impression of the land, streets littered with rubbish and decay and on one occasion a vintage tram, representing the past effectively being abandoned and left to rot away and die. Other examples include the riverway, the scene at the end with the spider-mech, the dirty looking man trying to catch the garbage delivery (in an area that clearly doesn't get very good services at the best of times, going again by the state of decay and litter that exists there already). The movie expresses these aspects pretty well, then reinforces it by pointing out that over consumerism and the Internet effectively becoming a sort of new land of infinite possibilities, means that alot of people choose to ignore the squalor they live in by escaping into the world of cyberspace and attempting to forget the real world. The poor are subdued by technology and consumerism, while the rich are pampered with cybernetics and technology that effectively gives them longer life or a better lifestyle. I don't think there's much Government to speak of since mega-corporations effectively rule the world and what Government that does exist is either utterly corporate and in it for themselves, or quasi-militaristic and designed to suppress and control. It's worth noting that at the start the Major's job is to assassinate someone who is defecting to another country, so clearly the world we're witnessing has serious issues. For all we know his reasons for defection are utterly justified. Innocence continues this by showing the most extreme example of this world - Etorofu, which has turned into a sort cybernetic shangri-la, purely built by corporations as a sort of information signal point. It literally shows what the Net would look like if it were a city. Everything about those scenes (and indeed afterwards at the mansion) in Innocence is utterly and deliberately surreal. It's expressing a wonderland world where reality is blurring into something completely alien. If you compare it with the start of the movie, again depicting a world that is rotting away, you get two pictures of the old world and the new one. The regression and eventually destruction of society and the evolution of a new one. Saying that, I wouldn't want to live in either one. The old world is dying, but the new one is a decay of flesh and individuality into a new collective consciousness. Either world is utterly devoid of any sort of hope in the future. Really, Ghost in the Shell's society is probably the most frighteningly realistic depiction of a true cyberpunk world. It does enough through subtlety to show just how horrendous this sort of world really is.
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Mar 6, 2017 10:39
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Man idk I've spent a lot of time in HK and I think it is magical~~~
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Mar 6, 2017 11:52
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WMain00 posted:It's worth noting that at the start the Major's job is to assassinate someone who is defecting to another country, so clearly the world we're witnessing has serious issues. For all we know his reasons for defection are utterly justified. She didn't shoot a defector, she shot an ambassador from a civilized and peaceful nation. There's a reason why that whole thing is black operation: "some unknown assailant charged into the room during a police operation and blew the dude up" looks a lot better than "police arrested him despite diplomatic immunity and executed him". Relevant and topical bit: Just realized that dude in the manga (and presumably the film) is a Russian ambassador. No ever mentions the country they're working for in that bit, but the "Aeroflot flight" bit gives it away.
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Mar 6, 2017 12:42
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WMain00 posted:Actually the dystopian state of their society is expressed pretty well by the claustrophobic and decaying state of the city they live in. Both the original movie and Innocence express a sense of melancholy and despair as consumerism, over-population, war and technology is basically ruining the world around them. Everything about the original movie is extremely claustrophobic; buildings are literally almost stacked on top of each other, housing is limited to extremely small spaces for the poor and mega apartments for the rich. Everything is decaying rapidly and the decay is left or built over by new and more modern buildings, which squeezes the poor into worse states of squalor. You can walk from an impoverished neighborhood to an affluent one but you haven't really examined anything. Is the neighborhood impoverished because it is populated by a bunch of lazy bohemians, or because it is being exploited by a rentier class, or mismanaged by a dictatorial government, or is it recovering from a disaster? There is a lack of characterization that pervades throughout the movie that limits its effectiveness. For example do the stall vendors hate when cyborgs shoot up the market or do they thank god that there is someone to protect them from ghost hacking? The Major gets the most characterization as befitting the protagonist but her only "interaction" with a non-police person is noticing another woman who has the same model body as the Major. The Major doesn't challenge anything about her society but doesn't support it either. She is down for extra judicial killings but only works for the government because she is afraid of change. The antagonist is another section of Public Security. Why does Aramaki or Batou get out of bed in the morning? They are all borderline villain protagonists, when you start to pull on the thread of these characters the movie unravels. The pessimistic view of the GITS society is only knowable through the solipsist and narcissistic attitudes of the Major. Togusa is shown by the movie as a family man, a talented detective with an affectation for unusual firearms, showing an uncybererized person as less alienated than the cyborg characters contradicting any post-human message the movie has. There is no coherent political or philosophical message, it isn't character driven and the plot resolves nothing. The move is static like a poorly designed cyborg.
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Mar 6, 2017 21:30
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The Majors thermoptic suit is pretty cool too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbCyXVEVpKk
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Mar 6, 2017 23:28
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Nvm found it is pg-13
Mr Ice Cream Glove fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Mar 7, 2017 |
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Mar 7, 2017 04:14
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ufarn posted:Do these people have some kind of fetish for loving up original material? All things change in a dynamic environment. Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you. What's truly unfortunate is how people are missing the point - the reported plot being that Motoko Kusanagi is dead, reborn as a similar-but-obviously-different version named Mira (Mirror). "I am now neither the woman who was known as the 'Major,' nor am I the program called the 'Puppet Master.'" This film will be a sequel to the 1995 film, inevitably and inherently. The filmmakers are clearly making use of this fact.
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Mar 8, 2017 01:13
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Innocence is a far better film than the original.
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Mar 8, 2017 10:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:All things change in a dynamic environment. Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you. OK and what about Kuze?
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Mar 9, 2017 00:29
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Phone posted:OK and what about Kuze? I'm not familiar with this character. Dmitri-9 posted:There is no coherent political or philosophical message, it isn't character driven and the plot resolves nothing. The (a)political message of the film is its blasphemous reworking of 1 Corinthians 13, which excises all references to agape. 'Newborn' Major will travel the Earth spreading demonic memes to recruit followers, so they may be 'born again' into the corporate net. She's a sort of antichrist.
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Mar 9, 2017 09:16
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My big problem is that you can't use the marxist framework as the be all end all of quality. Now I love communism as much as the next guy, but when cribbing from people like Zizek you have to keep in mind that he is a philospher first and foremost, things like The Perverts Guide are to him 'Tie-ins' (his own words) to his philosphy books. You can apply the analysis and get a greater understanding of a work, but when you reduce a films overall quality to it's Zizekian marxist purity you're going to lose out on massive parts of film analysis and criticism. A movie is a lot more than it's (really up for interpretation) economic message. I don't really view Gits as being a marxist series (Though SAC has some great sneaky socialism moments), it's a crime-noir movie in a sci-fi setting. Things like it's visual direction, it's beautiful animation, it's great sense of mood and tension, as well as an interesting sci-fi crime mystery with the puppetmaster, that makes full use of it's sci-fi setting (And is also beautifully designed prop-wise) is what makes it an above average movie. There is a great moment about half-way through the movie, where the Major is on a boat (I think) going through the city, and noticing people who she look similair to her. Now some of the writing in GITS is clunky and expository (Though that may be a side affect of the translation) but this one moment is a great example of how the movie really does well with it's cinematic medium, it's a quiet tense scene, and the silence makes you experience it the same way as The Major does, she is powerless in the face of the uncertainty of her own unique consciousness, but you experience that doubt and curiousity in a very personal way with a character that is otherwise kept at a fair distance (At least until poo poo starts popping off at the end). EDIT: And one last thing, saying 'they don't overthrow the dystopian nightmare society at the end so it must be pro-dystopia' is a really childish way to view fiction. The 1984 elements of GITS are clearly intentional, and not glorified. I mean come on people, it's a noir story, it's supposed to take place in a dark depressing setting where evil wins more often than not. Hell the whole 'The whole thing ends in a draw' always seemed like a really intentional anti-climax to me, the world is in a state of perpetual deadlock, but the Major's rebirth may be the first step in the creation of a new possibly different world. It's a very tiny victory, but feels appropriate for the setting and tone. cosmically_cosmic fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 17:28
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cosmically_cosmic posted:My big problem is that you can't use the marxist framework as the be all end all of quality. I don't think anyone in this thread has done that.
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Mar 9, 2017 17:55
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cosmically_cosmic posted:My big problem is that you can't use the marxist framework as the be all end all of quality. Now I love communism as much as the next guy, but when cribbing from people like Zizek you have to keep in mind that he is a philospher first and foremost, things like The Perverts Guide are to him 'Tie-ins' (his own words) to his philosphy books. Who are you responding to?
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Mar 9, 2017 18:23
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DeimosRising posted:Who are you responding to? SuperMechagodzilla, specifically comments about ideological propaganda and such.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:37
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After seeing the trailer again I have to say I really like Michael Pitt's text-to-speech approach to his dialogue. It almost makes up for his terrible accent in last year's Criminal.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:26
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cosmically_cosmic posted:SuperMechagodzilla, specifically comments about ideological propaganda and such. The fact that the film is propaganda, and that its protagonist is an antichrist, has no bearing on its quality. It is a pretty good propaganda film whose protagonist is an antichrist. The important thing is to understand what is going on in this pretty-good film, so that we may avoid vagueness and cliche: "Major's rebirth may be the first step in the creation of a new possibly different world. It's a very tiny victory, but feels appropriate for the setting and tone." What does this even mean? What's remarkable, in this Ghost In The Shell thread, is this repeatedly-stated aversion to philosophy. Like seriously, we're talking about Ghost In The Shell, the movie infamous for having characters wandering around pontificating, dropping oblique references to various philosophical concepts. There's no retreat into saying "it's just a noir" or whatever. At the same time, though, it's important to be critical of what is actually being said. The key point of the film is in the contrast between what the characters think - their personal philosophies - and what's actually going on. It is necessary to 'out-think' them. Again, Major thinks that she has found Christ - quotes the Bible, effectively stating that she endeavors to spread a 'holy spirit' at the end of the film. This is false. She is wrong. Keep in mind that, simultaneous with the release of the film, the disciples of the Heaven's Gate cult were "preparing themselves for entry into the Evolutionary Level Above Human, synonymous with the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven."
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Mar 9, 2017 19:29
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Sir, this is a Wendy's drive thru.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:30
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The fact that the film is propaganda, and that its protagonist is an antichrist, has no bearing on its quality. It is a pretty good propaganda film whose protagonist is an antichrist. That's some pretty big hyperbole. As I've mentioned, just because it is a dystopia that no-one topples, does not make it propaganda. Tell me, have you seen Blade Runner? Do you consider that film propaganda? Philosophical aspects are a valid part of film crit, as I said in the post. But to completely dismiss the idea that it's a movie, and not a step by step point by point philosophical textbook like it's Atlas Shrugged or something, is silly. What you're missing in my opinion is the fact that the philsophical elements are contextualised by the aspects of the medium, things like genre, tone, and narrative structure also play a part in shaping the films 'message' which is a pretty nebulous concept in a piece that's pretty medidative rather than outright declaritive. Like, you really can't seem to even entertain that fact that a dystopic setting can be used in a movie without being propaganda for cyberpunk dystopia. Flawed characters who aren't 'good guys' are familiar to most people who have seen movies before because they'll usually have seen something noirish or dystopian. SuperMechagodzilla posted:The important thing is to understand what is going on in this pretty-good film, so that we may avoid vagueness and cliche: "Major's rebirth may be the first step in the creation of a new possibly different world. It's a very tiny victory, but feels appropriate for the setting and tone." What does this even mean? Well as you seem to know the world in GITS is pretty dark, and there's kind of an over-arching theme of change and evolution and the structures of consciousness and civilisation, the idea of a transcendental evolution has the potential to change the world of GITS for the better, at least in the long term. I mean you've also got to keep in mind that it's a character arc too, the Major's final decision to abandon section 9 and her work as a government assassin is probably a good one, and if she does manage to bring in a new level of human evolution then all the better. They don't topple the dystopian regime or free the serfs or even arrest the actual bad guys. But they do achieve something that might one day change the world. As a story arc to a movie it's not hard to grasp. quote:What's remarkable, in this Ghost In The Shell thread, is this repeatedly-stated aversion to philosophy. Like seriously, we're talking about Ghost In The Shell, the movie infamous for having characters wandering around pontificating, dropping oblique references to various philosophical concepts. There's no retreat into saying "it's just a noir" or whatever. At the same time, though, it's important to be critical of what is actually being said. The key point of the film is in the contrast between what the characters think - their personal philosophies - and what's actually going on. It is necessary to 'out-think' them. No-one is trying to dismiss philosophical aspects of the film, the problem is that your specific brand of analysis is entirely based on a marxist reading of the film, and one that many people ITT disagree with. I mean I don't mean to go back to you not even knowing basic parts of the film (Like thinking that the bad guys were drug dealers) but you seem to have a real tunnel-vision for your specific marxist framework, and that is only one framework not the only one that is used to judge the merits of a piece of art. And even then I disagree with a lot of your interpretations, especially re: the movie condoning cyberpunk dystopias or advocating that the major running around blowing peoples heads off as favours to shadowy government officials was a good thing. EDIT: And come on dude are you really gonna try and link Ghost in the Shell using religious metaphors for transhumanism to Heavens Gate? That's some pretty low brow 'hint hint just saying' nonsense. cosmically_cosmic fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 19:43
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Sorry, accidental double-post.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:56
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Reading through SMG's post yet him not bringing up Oshii's career before being an animator, GITS '95 is probably the best argument against "Death Of The Author" since Yukio Mishima got his head chopped off. Biblical quotes and introspection are like signatures of his works. Oshii was a failed seminary student as well as a participant to student riots in the '60s and '70s
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Mar 9, 2017 20:35
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