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SteelNeuron posted:I can understand the risks involved in such a powerful escape move, but in practice it isn't that much better than being a spriggan or having access to cblink. The opportunity cost of god choice, terrain limitations, and with our hypothetical change, noise, seem like enough of a price to pay. cBlink is a level 8 spell with all the int/evp/skill/mp/etc costs that implies. God worship is a cost but it is not an exceptional one and as a passive ** ability that is effectively the only cost for jump, and that's really not a fair trade. Darox fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 14:16
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Darox posted:God worship is a cost, but it honestly is not an exceptional one and as a passive ** ability that is effectively its only cost, and that's really not a fair trade. Don't forget the fact that you need the right surroundings. This doesn't work on killholes, corridors, 2 tile wide corridors, and many other geometries. A spriggan can run away wherever. I agree there's something else that needs to happen to weight it down. So far the option I like the most is noise. SteelNeuron fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 14:21
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For flavor, the noise could be a chant/mantra associated with the move. I know nothing about martial arts or Chinese culture. e: Bruce Lee styled fighting noises thanks
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Mar 9, 2017 15:05
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Ferrinus posted:Don't come back if you aren't bringing Singularity with you. This thread has been half shitposts complaining about the game since the big three wand removal happened, and it really needs to stop. It's fine to shitpost in the moment when the change drops because you're emotional about it, or dropping a shitpost every now and then as a joke, but after a certain point you should sit down and actually think through an effort post about it if you actually want to persuade the devs reading this thread to do something (even if that do something is just summarize your post for discussion in #crawl-dev or the mailing list). Hell, seeing a no effort shitpost about the game (for a version still in development) on almost every single page since December is starting to piss me off a bit as well. When I say effort post, I don't just mean making a post describing what you think is a bad idea and your solution to solving it being something simple like revert the change or add x feature that the devs have already rejected multiple times. Take some time to look up why the devs removed/changed said feature: what problem was being caused by said feature that caused this to happen? Very occasionally is the actual reason to nerf the player or remove a thing they don't like; it is usually a design flaw that is being addressed that has the unintentional side effect of nerfing the player or removing a liked option. Next, find out if there have already been any discussions about the change, as well as any proposals to fixing/reimplementing it. If there haven't been any, try to figure out a way to fix it that does not create any additional design flaws, or reimplement the ones that were fixed with the original change. While doing this, make sure to stay objective; even if a subjective comment does not cause any animosity, it probably doesn't add anything of value to the discussion. If a devteam member responds but rejects your idea, take that feedback and attempt to reshape it into a new proposal. If you are unable to think of any other ways to re-implement the feature you liked without rejection, try to come up with an idea for new content instead; while it may not be the same as the feature that was removed, it may add a different kind of fun to the game that makes up for it. If you want to discuss multiple changes, make an effort post for each one to make sure you don't muddle the conversation and distract from the main topic. Bad example: Why would they remove the big three wands? I never would have managed to get my first win if I didn't get lucky with finding a wand of hasting and a wand of heal wounds! The game is already too hard, why would the devs keep making it harder? This is just like when they removed clarity and rMut amulets. All the devs do is remove the fun stuff, and they only listen to the grouchy old good players who don't even play the game anymore. Just put the wands and amulets back in; if the good players think they are too strong, they can just choose not to use them! Good example: I dislike the change to remove the big three wands. I know that they were removed because they had an issue with being able to use recharging scrolls to create an effectively infinite source of strong resources, which made the game much easier after finding them. They also had the issue of being wands that were not affected by Evocations, unlike every other wand. However, I feel their removal has made the game too difficult for players who are still not quite skilled or good at the game. It also unintentionally made mummies and necromutation worse by removing more options for them to use. I know that the corresponding consumables (potions of heal wounds, potions of haste, scrolls of teleportation) had their drop rates increased as compensation, but I feel that finding an extra potion or two over average does not compensate for losing the ability to possibly acquire those effects, or the excitement of receiving a bunch of that consumable at once. One proposal I have would be to return the drop rates to normal and add a Potions/Scrolls option to acquirement (maybe labeled 'Consumables'?) and have it replace one of the lesser used options like Food or Ammunition. This option could either generate a large mixed bag of good consumables, a medium mixed bag of excellent consumables, or a medium or large-sized stack of a single excellent consumable. Another proposal could be to return the drop rates to normal and create a guaranteed vault that could generate these consumables, similar to the guaranteed food vault; this would cut down on randomness screwing the player over on these consumables. A third proposal would be to remove recharging and reimplement the wands, but I'm not sure if that would resolve the issue with the wand strength not being tied to Evocations, so this might be a flawed idea. I'll have to make a different post to think of ideas for improving necromutation and mummies, as I can't think of a way that brings them back on the same level without reintroducing the troublesome wands. Which one do you think is likely to generate actual discussion vs get the equivalent of "lol gently caress off" or ignored? As a side note, knowing how to make the change yourself and submitting the change to the devs through either Mantis or GitHub makes it much more likely to be considered and implemented. Since development is a volunteer job with no benefits, time is a premium resource. There is only so much to go around, and devs are more likely to spend that time on something they are interested in unless the issue is fixing a bug. If you use your time to develop it, you reduce their time investment to a decision, which makes it much more likely to get quick feedback, responds, and possible implementation. If you don't know how to code, then keep proposing fleshed out ideas anyway; just know that they will likely be on the back burner until some dev or other coder decides it is the most important thing to work on for their free time (which may be a long time depending on the size of the proposal).
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Mar 9, 2017 15:49
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No thanks, I'll keep posting my opinions about Crawl and making bad jokes. You're welcome to stop if you want though.  Sorry sometimes people disagree with you or make jokes you don't like. I know that can be hard to deal with.
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Mar 9, 2017 16:07
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Also, could people just shut up about Singularity already? It's a poor hill to die on. The game was great before Singularity's existence, it's great after, and during it's implementation only a tiny subset of players got to cast that particular lvl9 spell so it wasn't even rocking the boat. It was axed since everything that made it good was also what made it broken, minor tweaks weren't going to fix that.
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Mar 9, 2017 16:12
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Every time I've seen a serious effort post in this thread its been completely ignored, so no. I don't think either of your options are likely to lead to any changes because any real complaints or talk gets ignored (see: Hell effects, some of the proposed mut changes that aren't 'bring back rMut', issues with poison magic etc). So... why not negatively post? I'm still annoyed that they completely removed rMissle from Felids and Octopodes by moving it to a new piece of equipment that neither could wear when those species are two who really needed it the most. And they don't have the degenerate problem of 'wearing armor and still being able to cast rmissile' the change was aimed to fix. But bringing that up gets met with deafening silence. I've definitely seen an uptick in my Octopode deaths since the change but it doesn't matter since they're a challenge race or something. Zore fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 16:16
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Serephina posted:Also, could people just shut up about Singularity already? Singularity is a joke. No one expects it to come back or the Crown of Eternal Torment. I think Ferrinus was just kidding around unless people really think he was banishing one of our favourite (ex?)devs from posting in this thread unless he re implements that spell.
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Mar 9, 2017 16:22
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it's kind of lovely to be like "don't come back unless you change this" when PF is already leaving due to the constant negativity in this thread
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Mar 9, 2017 16:26
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FulsomFrank posted:Singularity is a joke. No one expects it to come back or the Crown of Eternal Torment. Yeah, this is basically PF having their annual 'ugh goons' reaction, because we do kinda poo poo on the things that the crawl devs do (because this is an internet joke forum and shouldn't be taken all that seriously) and floodkiller just sorta  hard because we offended his video game waifu.
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Mar 9, 2017 16:26
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Man can we not nerf Council until I somehow win with it. Eventually I'll get there! Also I didn't think of even nearly half the poo poo that one dude with the gifs did. Never even crossed my mind, I'm also not much of a murder hole maker with Fo's tho.
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Mar 9, 2017 16:38
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Yeah, I totally respect that crawl is a labor of love for devs and they're not required to engage with me, they do so because they care about the game and the community. I'm also not going to stop requesting mummies get something to make them not miserable to play, or Ogres get their M+F apts adjusted up, or that they not cut HE. I do this because I love crawl. I've played since .5 and the game is is much better than it was then, but if I don't say what I want to see, devs won't know. Even repeating these things ad nauseum is important because as soon as you stop they'll say "nobody is requesting we buff Ogres, I should focus my time on making the game more transparent instead of wasting my time with reviewing Ogres." High Elves were hashed to death when that was announced, so I won't linger on it but to say 'there were not well articulated arguments against the devs stated removal reasons' is wrong. There were lots of "better remove 1/2 the races for being too tolkein as well, lol" posts at that time too, but I recall at least one rather long post breaking down hybrid mechanics and how HE are unique that did a fantastic job of explaining why they need to stay. The devs have their heart in the right place, they make their arguments and come to a conclusion, then stick to it even when it's unpopular. That's admirable, but very frustrating. Phoneposting so no links to relevant post, or detailed requests for fixing mummies right now, sorry.
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Mar 9, 2017 16:40
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Captain Monkey posted:No thanks, I'll keep posting my opinions about Crawl and making bad jokes. You're welcome to stop if you want though. Captain Monkey posted:What is your goal here, to take a fun god and make it tedius and miserable? Captain Monkey posted:Yeah, it would be pretty much the end of the world if Crawl got something fun but slightly overpowered. I can see why its such a concern Were those opinions or bad jokes? Looks more like unmerited and biting sarcasm or, in the parlance of our time, "being a dickhead". It's okay, I do the same thing sometimes. Sorry I went off on the council god with axes. They're clearly less useful than any other weapon type due to not getting cleave on special moves and that seems to be to be something worthy of consideration. But I may have overstated my case simply because as a Hill Orc in heavy armor I didn't need the god so much. The Singularity stuff is a total joke and PF knows it. Pretty sure it's the Minority Report psychics predicting future actions by the devs so they can poo poo on them.  My sweet lord.....RED BALL! RED BALL!
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Mar 9, 2017 16:46
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Cerepol posted:Man can we not nerf Council until I somehow win with it. Try a Hill Orc and get over 100 points in defenses... code:The new noise meter is cool but I miss seeing my gold pieces go up!
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Mar 9, 2017 16:53
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Araganzar posted:Try a Hill Orc and get over 100 points in defenses... Teleportitis is a death sentence I'm fairly sure. Even the first tier of it has gotten me into situations that required some severe emergency responses. It is the reason you save mutation potions in case you acquire this one by your own purple eating or bullshit from a mutator. Berserkitis sucks but can be worked around. Being randomly dropped into a middle of enemies... not so much.
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Mar 9, 2017 16:56
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Floodkiller posted:As a side note, knowing how to make the change yourself and submitting the change to the devs through either Mantis or GitHub makes it much more likely to be considered and implemented. Since development is a volunteer job with no benefits, time is a premium resource. There is only so much to go around, and devs are more likely to spend that time on something they are interested in unless the issue is fixing a bug. If you use your time to develop it, you reduce their time investment to a decision, which makes it much more likely to get quick feedback, responds, and possible implementation. I've seen similar statements like these thrown around a lot and this is *really* overly optimistic. You said it yourself: development is a volunteer job. When Johnny Doughnuts discusses something in tavern, thinks something is an amazing idea and creates a patch without explicit unanimous approval there's a chance it simply gets shut down because no form of that patch is being considered by the core team. It's incredibly frustrating and players have already been burned in the past by this. Even something like "this sounds interesting but we'd have to see this in action and tested first to decide" is something I'd wait for potential contributors to see for doing anything beyond changing a variable and compiling. If you're the type that would code your own improvements into DCSS for fun and you don't care if they get rejected or not, then you should most definitely submit your patches as you go. I'm all for the idea of players who are code-savvy contributing good ideas, just felt that there needs to be a disclaimer.
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Mar 9, 2017 17:10
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FulsomFrank posted:Singularity is a joke. No one expects it to come back or the Crown of Eternal Torment.
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Mar 9, 2017 17:24
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Captain Monkey posted:No thanks, I'll keep posting my opinions about Crawl and making bad jokes. You're welcome to stop if you want though. I'm not complaining about having an opinion I disagree with or making jokes I don't find funny. I'm complaining mainly about the 'jokes' that are the exact same parroted lines that don't even try to come up with a new approach to being funny, so it just turns into a white noise complaint. I'm guilty of it with Malmutate, and I realized that, so I decided to shut up about it unless I can actually put effort into a post about it, because the jokes eventually turn to white noise when you are making it for the 20th time. I also didn't make that post because a dev got sick of SA. Just because dpeg comes in here at times and can have civil discussions doesn't mean I'm going to defend him if he starts acting like a prick. I made it because I was tired of the constant posts that were neither constructive or funny. FulsomFrank posted:Singularity is a joke. No one expects it to come back or the Crown of Eternal Torment. I quoted that comment because it felt particularly mean-spirited in the moment, but a better example would probably have been to go grab one of Darth Windu's 'list of demands' posts or just not quote anything at all, in hindsight. Zore posted:Every time I've seen a serious effort post in this thread its been completely ignored, so no. I don't think either of your options are likely to lead to any changes because any real complaints or talk gets ignored (see: Hell effects, some of the proposed mut changes that aren't 'bring back rMut', issues with poison magic etc). As I said, I don't mind seeing negative posts, or the occasional shout out to an awful feature (see the era of shadow traps). What I don't like seeing is the exact same negative post every couple pages. The thread isn't fun to read or participate in if it's just a parroted protest thread. If the game is really that bad, get involved with the development process or at least put effort into your protest to describe why it is awful. At least find out why the change was made and complain in the right direction to altering it instead of pulling a mountain dwarf and complaining at the brick wall of 'no'. If the dev team is never going to make the fixes you demand, take the effort put into complaining and use it to learn how to get your own fork of Dungeon Crawl working; a lot of Crawl server hosts are willing to host other branches or forks if you ask. If you don't want to put in even that effort, then playing only older versions also leaves an impact: player numbers and win rates for all types of players and race/background combinations are tracked, and a decrease in player numbers can easily be spotted if players refuse to play the new version en masse. Basically, be negative, but at least be fresh about it or keep it on a reminder schedule instead of a one ever two-three pages schedule. apple posted:I've seen similar statements like these thrown around a lot and this is *really* overly optimistic. You said it yourself: development is a volunteer job. When Johnny Doughnuts discusses something in tavern, thinks something is an amazing idea and creates a patch without explicit unanimous approval there's a chance it simply gets shut down because no form of that patch is being considered by the core team. It's incredibly frustrating and players have already been burned in the past by this. Even something like "this sounds interesting but we'd have to see this in action and tested first to decide" is something I'd wait for potential contributors to see for doing anything beyond changing a variable and compiling. Fair enough. I guess I'm fine with being a hobbyist and flat out rejection (I still have no clue if Cynos have a chance at making it in, and I've put over two months of work into it) that it doesn't bother me that much.
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Mar 9, 2017 17:31
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The Eternal Torment was in you the entire time! 
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Mar 9, 2017 17:31
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FulsomFrank posted:Teleportitis is a death sentence I'm fairly sure. Even the first tier of it has gotten me into situations that required some severe emergency responses. It is the reason you save mutation potions in case you acquire this one by your own purple eating or bullshit from a mutator. I didn't think about quaffing more mutation pots. I'm dumb enough I was searching for "cure mut" and wondering why I haven't found a single one by zot... edit: My KoWn Wu Jian game - I have skills in long blades and short blades: code:code:Araganzar fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 17:41
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Araganzar posted:Were those opinions or bad jokes? Some of those were opinions, some of them were playful sarcasm. Both are allowed. ok, sorry you don't agree with some posts in this thread and don't like reading them I guess.
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Mar 9, 2017 17:45
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Captain Monkey posted:Some of those were opinions, some of them were playful sarcasm. Both are allowed. There's nothing to agree/disagree with in your posts, your posts are just terrible and you're being dense about it to boot.
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Mar 9, 2017 17:50
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Araganzar posted:I didn't think about quaffing more mutation pots. I'm dumb enough I was searching for "cure mut" and wondering why I haven't found a single one by zot... Its because you used it wrong. It is balways baquire barmour.
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Mar 9, 2017 17:52
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apple posted:There's nothing to agree/disagree with in your posts, your posts are just terrible and you're being dense about it to boot. You're similarly not that optimistic about positive dev changes in crawl coming from fellating them in this thread. I'm just not as interested in posting multi-paragraphs whines about a rogue-like video game as some people are.
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Mar 9, 2017 17:58
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Everyone ignored the fact that there is a player named Niggerkiller and his ghosts can appear in other people's games.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:12
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Captain Monkey posted:You're similarly not that optimistic about positive dev changes in crawl coming from fellating them in this thread. I'm just not as interested in posting multi-paragraphs whines about a rogue-like video game as some people are. My take on it is that everyone's human, devs included, that coupled with this being an open source project and fun being subjective means you should be prepared to be disappointed and possibly annoyed by things they do about a video game you enjoy but you shouldn't take things personally and do what you want to contribute; if it's nothing, that's okay! Historically I've been pretty vocal of changes I dislike but I try to keep it civil. I've had the same problem that Zore has of it being usually ignored, but I don't take it personally because it's still ~talking about video games you enjoy on a forum~ in the end. Decrepus posted:Everyone ignored the fact that there is a player named Niggerkiller and his ghosts can appear in other people's games. This actually is one of the most jarring things about webtiles, I'm guessing account creation process is too barebones to filter inappropriate names and no one wants to play a game of whack-a-mole to get rid of nkiller2, nkiller3 and so on since it's probably that type of person. apple fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 18:14
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apple posted:My take on it is that everyone's human, devs included, that coupled with this being an open source project and fun being subjective means you should be prepared to be disappointed and possibly annoyed by things they do about a video game you enjoy but you shouldn't take things personally and do what you want to contribute; if it's nothing, that's okay! Historically I've been pretty vocal of changes I dislike but I try to keep it civil. I've had the same problem that Zore has of it being usually ignored, but I don't take it personally because it's still ~talking about video games you enjoy on a forum~ in the end. Yeah man, I agree! I don't take any of this personally and I get really confused when people do. We're on the same page, I just post less words than you. Like, I've been playing crawl for forever, and being amused and mystified at the sometimes really weird decisions the devs make is just part of that. If it comes across as being a jerk, it's because of the text based medium. Everyone needs to chill the heck out about this (and all) game(s). vvv Look, a reasonable way to deal with posts you don't agree with vvv Yngwie Mangosteen fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 18:22
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Decrepus posted:Everyone ignored the fact that there is a player named Niggerkiller and his ghosts can appear in other people's games. Also, the very best thing about the Singularity spell was the name. I've worked on singularities, they're such beauties. Bonus points for first tournament dev clan called Singularity!!! Floodkiller: these days, I just filter out part of the thread. It's a bit strange, but at least it is better than tavern for me. (There, good and poo poo posts can come from the same mouth.) Poor disPleasedFungus, hopefully he comes back. But I really wonder: what's holding us back from deleting the Niggerkiller account and all its history?
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Mar 9, 2017 18:23
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Decrepus posted:Everyone ignored the fact that there is a player named Niggerkiller and his ghosts can appear in other people's games. Well yeah, nothing abnormal about that. That's just Attorney General Jeff Session's crawl account. It's how he meets up with Boris and Natasha.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:25
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If changes.txt makes you mad enough to type out embarrassing sentences about a silly game on an internet forum, maybe it's time to try other hobbies besides crawl? Just a thought.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:26
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LordSloth posted:Well yeah, nothing abnormal about that. That's just Attorney General Jeff Session's crawl account. It's how he meets up with Boris and Natasha. 
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Mar 9, 2017 18:31
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weirdly chilly pussy posted:If changes.txt makes you mad enough to type out embarrassing sentences about a silly game on an internet forum, maybe it's time to try other hobbies besides crawl? Just a thought. You're right. Sorry for the meltdown everyone; I've had a bad day so far and decided to snap and over a roguelike thread on a comedy forum.Please delete Niggerkiller, though.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:37
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dpeg posted:Good call to unite the thread by pointing at the common enemy! I would fully expect some choice words from the playerbase about "free speech" or something to that effect protesting their inability to call themselves what they want. There's already been a bit of "outrage" at renaming Sword of Jihad, for example. Captain Monkey posted:Yeah man, I agree! I don't take any of this personally and I get really confused when people do. We're on the same page, I just post less words than you. Like, I've been playing crawl for forever, and being amused and mystified at the sometimes really weird decisions the devs make is just part of that. If it comes across as being a jerk, it's because of the text based medium. I will say that your style of posting is pretty inflammatory because of the low content/low effort vibe it gives off. You don't need to write essays or suck up to other people to fix this (this post is already a huge improvement for example).
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Mar 9, 2017 18:37
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Just curious, what other options were considered for the wand change? I know the goal was to not make them infinite, so I had another idea that might work. Why not have the functionality of the better wands be more tied into evocation skill. Without a large investment for example, maybe teleport wands take 10 turns to activate, and a heal wounds cures you for like 5 hp. edit: I guess they would still be rechargeable in this instance, but the skill investment seems like a fair price for that. Or you could also tie the number of charges restored with evocations skill as well. blackflare fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 18:38
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dpeg posted:But I really wonder: what's holding us back from deleting the Niggerkiller account and all its history? It's not something the devs really have control over, this is the domain of the server admins. Putting the onus on them to track down that player, change their name, and deal with the resultant fallout is a bit much to ask. Maybe there could be a blacklist set up and any account names with substrings in that blacklist don't get to be ghosts? 
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Mar 9, 2017 18:41
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apple posted:I will say that your style of posting is pretty inflammatory because of the low content/low effort vibe it gives off. You don't need to write essays or suck up to other people to fix this (this post is already a huge improvement for example). I mean, people getting mad at low effort posts isn't really the fault of the poster. There's no reason to take anything anyone says here seriously enough to get mad. But we're pretty far off topic from the video game we've been discussing.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:42
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blackflare posted:Just curious, what other options were considered for the wand change? I know the goal was to not make them infinite, so I had another idea that might work. Why not have the functionality of the better wands be more tied into evocation skill. Without a large investment for example, maybe teleport wands take 10 turns to activate, and a heal wounds cures you for like 5 hp. Does this really make the situation any better? Find power wand, invest in Evocations, use them, recharge, as opposed to find power wand, use them, recharge? Especially with the glut of experience available in Depths (which is about the time you'd start actually using these wands) it's not much of a barrier.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:44
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For what it's worth I like everyone who posts here and especially enjoy Darth Windu's contributions/ransom lists. Mummys are miserable though. The last few I've had get off the ground were hampered by the fact that I seemed to be running out of EXP to get my higher level spells really clicking which lead to me diving into deeper and more dangerous branches/levels and inevitably dying. Maybe I should just go back to Deep Elves of V-man and call it a day.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:45
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SKULL.GIF posted:Does this really make the situation any better? Find power wand, invest in Evocations, use them, recharge, as opposed to find power wand, use them, recharge? I mean with that attitude there's not much of a barrier switching your weapon skill 2/3 of the way through the game, or picking up some new lvl 7-8 spells. I thought experience was a pretty significant barrier. If I invested 20 levels into evocations, thats a lot of exp I didn't spend on armor or dodging or something. I don't usually find I have that much extra exp to spare by that point, unless Im heading into 15 runes.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:56
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SKULL.GIF posted:It's not something the devs really have control over, this is the domain of the server admins. Putting the onus on them to track down that player, change their name, and deal with the resultant fallout is a bit much to ask. I think some form of this has been mentioned before, but a dev-side solution could be to simply remove player names by default and show instead "novice minotaur monk" or the like, and you could have an rc file option to enable player names if you'd rather have those. That would still leave leaderboards potentially showing inappropriate names, but AFAIK all the players with inappropriate names suck too much too appear in leaderboards  you can still pull them up by typing their name, though.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:59
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