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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Ryan On Millions Losing Care: 'Never Going To Win A Coverage Beauty Contest' Hahaha holy poo poo Between this and Chaffetz's "iPhone" line, the Republicans are practically doing their opponents' work for them. I haven't seen messaging this terrible in a long time.
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Mar 10, 2017 16:47
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Does anyone know when the CBO will put out their numbers?
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Mar 10, 2017 16:50
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eviltastic posted:Ted Cruz, noted student of Senate parliamentary rules, would like to play Calvinball with Mike Pence. Its actually not completely crazy what he's suggesting because its the same basic principle the nuclear option relied on: at the end of the day, the only way to reverse a ruling from the chair on what the rules say is having 51 votes. Expect to see conservatives call for it more and more as stuff that's not going through reconciliation gets blocked. My guess is that its not going to happen because the Republicans in the senate don't actually want to pass the hard-right stuff. It's usually unpopular, and fundamentally Republicans are more happy with government not working than Democrats are so they'll happily sacrifice a few laws (knowing they can get their tax cuts through) to make it harder for Democrats to legislate in the future. So they'll go oh too bad we're totally with you but i guess we just can't pass the Grind Up The Poor And Feed Them To Dogs act because of those mean old senate rules! That way their dumb constituents don't really notice they voted in favor of it like they would if they actually started getting turned into doggie burgers, and their hard right constituents think they're on their side but it's old yertle who is the problem. Part of the job of the Senate Majority Leader is, basically, to be the bad guy for his caucus when they don't want to be the bad guy.
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Mar 10, 2017 16:52
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DaveWoo posted:Hahaha holy poo poo
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Mar 10, 2017 16:55
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Cheesus posted:And yet I'm still going to be legitimately shocked when both the repeal and replace pass. It'll pass They're appealing to party loyalty and that's the big sell.
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Mar 10, 2017 16:57
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That argument could work if the underlying insurance was useless. As it stands he is pushing some kind of 1950s soda jerk fantasy about visiting the town doctor when you have a tummy ache. But people don't worry that much about a GP visit, they want to know that if they need $200,000 of pharmaceuticals or surgery that they wont be told to go to Hell or the bread line. What is his plan to make things "more affordable" even Trump talked about reigning in rx drug prices. DaveWoo posted:Hahaha holy poo poo And the DNC can't even be bothered to say anything at all. I've heard a lot from Chaffetz, Doll Eyes, Turtle Club, Trump but not Pelosi or Reid. Dmitri-9 fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 16:58
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Dmitri-9 posted:That argument could work if the underlying insurance was useless. As it stands he is pushing some kind of 1950s soda jerk fantasy about visiting the town doctor when you have a tummy ache. But people don't worry that much about a GP visit, they want to know that if they need $200,000 of pharmaceuticals or surgery that they wont be told to go to Hell or the bread line. What is his plan to make things "more affordable" even Trump talked about reigning in rx drug prices. He backed off on importing canadian drugs already, so i guess good luck there - since price controls seem to imply the market isn't free to set the price since 'demand' drive it, not realizing that people pay exhorbitant prices due to the counterpoint of death or an incredibly low quality of life. Like my life would take a figureative and literal dump if i couldn't afford my meds, but i wouldn't immediately die
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Mar 10, 2017 17:02
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Cheesus posted:And yet I'm still going to be legitimately shocked when both the repeal and replace pass. I don't think it's happening. I was already feeling vaguely hopeful but if Senator Cotton, noted piece of poo poo and fervent Trumpenstaffel sturmgrenadier, is saying its a stupid piece of poo poo that will make health care worse, I don't see it getting anywhere in the Senate.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:03
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Dmitri-9 posted:And the DNC can't even be bothered to say anything at all. I've heard a lot from Chaffetz, Doll Eyes, Turtle Club, Trump but not Pelosi or Reid. The House Dems spent 27 straight hours clowning on the thing.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:05
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Dmitri-9 posted:And the DNC can't even be bothered to say anything at all. I've heard a lot from Chaffetz, Doll Eyes, Turtle Club, Trump but not Pelosi or Reid. The Democrats' strategy is to stay out of the way and it's a good one. They are letting Republicans savage the bill while Democrats sit off on the side going yep, definitely poo poo whenever asked keeps the focus on a Republican vs. Republican fight instead of a fight against the Evil Liberals that might help unify the Republicans. Then every time one of them says something real dumb, like that, they tweet it to everyone - but making sure the focus stays on Republicans.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:08
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Oxxidation posted:The House Dems spent 27 straight hours clowning on the thing. Maybe it's the fault of the "liberal media" constantly carrying water for Trump's job creation successes and presidential demeanor when they aren't calling him a lying traitor. It must be hard to cover more than two things.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:09
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Dmitri-9 posted:Maybe it's the fault of the "liberal media" constantly carrying water for Trump's job creation successes and presidential demeanor when they aren't calling him a lying traitor. It must be hard to cover more than two things. Do you want Democrats loudly opposing this, or do you want the greatest possible chance of it going down in flames and no repeal passing?
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Mar 10, 2017 17:11
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evilweasel posted:I don't think it's happening. I was already feeling vaguely hopeful but if Senator Cotton, noted piece of poo poo and fervent Trumpenstaffel sturmgrenadier, is saying its a stupid piece of poo poo that will make health care worse, I don't see it getting anywhere in the Senate. I didn't think Don would win, either, so I'm just going to assume this will pass until it doesn't.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:20
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evilweasel posted:Do you want Democrats loudly opposing this, or do you want the greatest possible chance of it going down in flames and no repeal passing? Being the silent, passive party with no ideas or beliefs doesn't strike me as a good strategy. If they can't make political hay out of stupid policies no progress will be made, the status quo will be eroded out from under them.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:30
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Dmitri-9 posted:Being the silent, passive party with no ideas or beliefs doesn't strike me as a good strategy. If they can't make political hay out of stupid policies no progress will be made, the status quo will be eroded out from under them. If Democrats attack the bill it gives the currently fractured Republican factions a common enemy to unite against.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:34
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Dmitri-9 posted:Being the silent, passive party with no ideas or beliefs doesn't strike me as a good strategy. If they can't make political hay out of stupid policies no progress will be made, the status quo will be eroded out from under them. It feels more like they don't want to fight against it, lose, and then take blame as the reason people are dying because of their failure
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Mar 10, 2017 17:35
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Dmitri-9 posted:Being the silent, passive party with no ideas or beliefs doesn't strike me as a good strategy. If they can't make political hay out of stupid policies no progress will be made, the status quo will be eroded out from under them. I mean look, there's not a Democrat out there who, when asked, isn't repeating the correct talking points. Most importantly, there's not a single Democrat, in the House or the Senate, showing any inclination of giving these idiots any cover whatsoever. They've got the votes on lockdown. They've got a good strategy: gum up the works as much as humanly possible while waiting for the CBO score to drop and officially announce how terrible this is. And to stay out of the way while the Republican party tears itself apart while Ryan and Trump keep vainly trying to get everyone to focus on defeating the Democrats. One of the most helpful things here is that there is a bipartisan consensus this is poo poo. Not Democrats vs. Republicans: Democrats and Republicans vs. Republicans. It's one of the things McConnell identified early on in Obama's presidency: the public assumes that anything that is "bipartisan" is good. Right now, this is bipartisan opposition. Everyone watching sees Republicans on the TV repeatedly castigating this. They see Democrats also saying its bad, but the Democrats aren't crowding out the Republicans or making it easy for people on the right to go "stop fighting, you're helping the Democrats!!" I mean, people are doing that and they're right. But because the Democrats are making it hard for them, so those republicans are not being very effective at it. They have ideas, they have beliefs, and the fact they're sticking to them is what's put the Republicans in this spot. But there's more to a strategy than blindly charging full speed every time at something. Republicans are busy making a very big mistake. The Democrats - who are as far from an election as it is possible to be - are busy making sure that when the election does come around Republicans are in as bad a spot as possible. I am very, very sure they're saving the video footage of these idiots for the 2018 elections. I am very, very sure that they will be loudly denouncing what the Republicans have tried to do/will do. There is nothing, nothing at all, better that could happen for the Democrats (and for the country) than for Obamacare repeal to fail because Republicans ripped off the mask and showed (and said) that their actual health care policy is gently caress you, die in a gutter. Everyone knows the Democrats are in favor of broader health care. What there has been confusion on - because it's an explicit Republican strategy to make sure that confusion exists - is what Republicans are in favor of. Right now, the Democrats are letting Republicans tell you what they are in favor of. And it's not pretty.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:37
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EugeneJ posted:It feels more like they don't want to fight against it, lose, and then take blame as the reason people are dying because of their failure That's a stupid opinion and you should feel dumb for saying it. They're in lockstep opposition to it, even senators from deep red states that Republicans hoped to flip. They aren't giving an inch of ground on this, they will not supply a single vote for it, and they won't supply a single vote for followup laws. They are just also making sure that there's plenty of airtime for Republicans to murder their own. They are doing everything possible to set this bill up for failure, and doing stupid poo poo because it feels good but makes repeal more likely is going to make it more likely people die (but you feel good!).
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Mar 10, 2017 17:39
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evilweasel posted:That's a stupid opinion and you should feel dumb for saying it. They're in lockstep opposition to it, even senators from deep red states that Republicans hoped to flip. They aren't giving an inch of ground on this. They are just also making sure that there's plenty of airtime for Republicans to murder their own. You're saying this as if the repeal succeeding and people dying in the streets wouldn't be an easier way for Dems to win over voters Optics!
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Mar 10, 2017 17:43
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For what it's worth, I think the Dems are doing just fine speaking out against the bill; it's just that there are so many people/groups speaking out against the bill right now, that the Dems kind of get a bit lost in the chorus. Seriously, it's amazing just how unpopular this bill is.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:47
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EugeneJ posted:You're saying this as if the repeal succeeding and people dying in the streets wouldn't be an easier way for Dems to win over voters True, but if they die they can't vote  . In all seriousness, the Republicans managed two different wave elections in response to heath care reform that failed (clinton) or succeeded but hadn't actually done anything yet (obama). I don't think its necessary to actually take people's heath care away, they just need to know that Republicans tried very, very hard to take away their heath care. Republicans can't run on repeal and replace anymore. They now have to defend this piece of poo poo.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:47
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They caught this car and still have no idea what to do with it that isn't going to come back to haunt them
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Mar 10, 2017 17:50
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lol tpm decided to get a little frisky on the image for this article: 
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Mar 10, 2017 17:50
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I think the problem is all these loving liberal parents shoving Mind altering drugs down kids throats from age 2. How many people here are on a range of ADHD meds anxiety meds or similar mind altering drugs? Democrats designed obamacare to reduce human intellect. Now trumps removing that ability. http://www.additudemag.com/adhdblogs/19/11708.html Chewable ADHD meds. Good stuff Obamacare
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Mar 10, 2017 17:51
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If you like your plan, you can keep it*quote:Price: Americans Will Be Able To Keep Their Plans, But Some May Be 'Moved' To Insurance That's 'Much More Desirable'
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Mar 10, 2017 17:52
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I get the whole "give them enough rope to hang themselves" strategy but I guess the fact that that was what democrats did in all of 2016 to Trump and he won anyway is the thing that gives me pause e: LeoMarr posted:I think the problem is all these loving liberal parents shoving Mind altering drugs down kids throats from age 2. How many people here are on a range of ADHD meds anxiety meds or similar mind altering drugs? Democrats designed obamacare to reduce human intellect. Now trumps removing that ability.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:52
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SousaphoneColossus posted:I get the whole "give them enough rope to hang themselves" strategy but I guess the fact that that was what democrats did in all of 2016 to Trump and he won anyway is the thing that gives me pause Meanwhile, the left is tripping over their dicks over how the democrats just aren't allies.
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Mar 10, 2017 18:07
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evilweasel posted:There is nothing, nothing at all, better that could happen for the Democrats (and for the country) than for Obamacare repeal to fail because Republicans ripped off the mask and showed (and said) that their actual health care policy is gently caress you, die in a gutter. Everyone knows the Democrats are in favor of broader health care. What there has been confusion on - because it's an explicit Republican strategy to make sure that confusion exists - is what Republicans are in favor of. Right now, the Democrats are letting Republicans tell you what they are in favor of. And it's not pretty. Yeah. I mean, just look at this: quote:“We always know, you’re never going to win a coverage beauty contest when it’s free market versus government mandates,” Ryan told radio host Hugh Hewitt, after Hewitt floated the possibility that the CBO would estimate 15 million people will lose health insurance because of the American Health Care Act. quote:Our goal is not to show a pretty piece of paper that says, ‘We’re mandating great things for Americans.’ quote:“I would suggest to Martha that what our desire is, is to make sure certain you are the individual that is able to select the physician and the treatment that you desire for yourself, not that the government dictates to you,” Price said, responding to a woman who stood to lose thousands of dollars in government health care subsidies. (And if you can't afford the physician or treatment you desire, well that's all on you isn't it?) They're not even attempting to spin this dogshit plan as an improvement to America's current overall healthcare situation. It's purely a massive wealth transfer upward to people who don't need it, and that's always what it was meant to be. That's been their objective since 2010 and they're fully aware it will loving ruin many of their constituents, but they have to do it right now before everyone finally gets wise to what's going on.
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Mar 10, 2017 18:11
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Rhesus Pieces posted:They're not even attempting to spin this dogshit plan as an improvement to America's current overall healthcare situation. It's purely a massive wealth transfer upward to people who don't need it, and that's always what it was meant to be. That's been their objective since 2010 and they're fully aware it will loving ruin many of their constituents, but they have to do it right now before everyone finally gets wise to what's going on. Didn't Trump say that if the health care market collapsed, they can just blame the Democrats?
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Mar 10, 2017 18:16
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SousaphoneColossus posted:I get the whole "give them enough rope to hang themselves" strategy but I guess the fact that that was what democrats did in all of 2016 to Trump and he won anyway is the thing that gives me pause The difference here is that Trump is/was a cipher-because he said so much contradictory poo poo, a lot of his supporters would look at him and assume that he wasn't really for the wall, or wasn't really against healthcare, but he was for whatever they wanted him to be for. Now that there's actually a concrete plan in place, it's much harder for people to see what they want to see, which is why the bill has gotten such pushback from both moderate and far-right Republicans.
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Mar 10, 2017 18:25
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Bubbacub posted:Didn't Trump say that if the health care market collapsed, they can just blame the Democrats? yes, but this falls apart when they ran on the repeal platform and control the gov't and have 100% power to repeal it - his statement was about letting the ACA fail and then blaming the dems.
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Mar 10, 2017 18:26
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We'd probably suffer at minimum a significant increase in unemployment if we suddenly lost 15 Million people off of insurance. Some studies show that 1 in 8 Americans work in the health care field in some capacity . https://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2015/03/05/five-years-ago-they-called-obamacare-a-job-killer-heres-what-they-say-now/#30b4fc253214 Studies indicate that it did boost employment after all so gutting the Medicaid expansion or loving with it will cause a reduction in the work force. https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen/2015/02/20/obamacare-jobs-grow-faster-in-medicaid-expansion-states/#4c66a311bc75 Can you imagine the fall out if they did repeal it? Your talking a massive sticker shock of job losses in a relative short period of time.
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Mar 10, 2017 18:48
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I've also been wondering about the Democrats political messaging on healthcare, and Evilweasel sounds correct: they don't have any power to make change, the Republicans are punching themselves in the dick, and they are currently as far from an election as can be. The party itself is holding the line fairly well. I am disappointed that there isn't more prospective messaging about what Dems would do differently, but it's possible they currently feel boxed into the position of 'fix Obamacare rather than replace.' I don't think that stance will be around much longer if the Republicans are able to advance their legislation any further. But let's consider if Republicans are able to nuke the ACA and return us to the bad-old days of 2009. In that case, in the 2020 elections there is absolutely no chance that Democrats will be campaigning on a healthcare platform that calls for returning to Obamacare or 'repairing' it. That was tried and failed - total nonstarter politically. The only thing that's left is single payer (Medicare-for-all)! I really think Republicans have managed to give us the greatest chance in a long time to get single-payer healthcare. Bernie was already calling for it during his presidential campaign and Clinton countered that they should try to fix the ACA instead (which was a reasonable position). When Paul Ryan gets his tax cut the ACA will be gone and single-payer will be on the ticket in 2020. just spitballin' EugeneJ posted:You're saying this as if the repeal succeeding and people dying in the streets wouldn't be an easier way for Dems to win over voters we get it, you're the one true progressive, and would never soil yourself with politics *loses every election for a decade*
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Mar 10, 2017 18:50
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sharkbomb posted:But let's consider if Republicans are able to nuke the ACA and return us to the bad-old days of 2009. In that case, in the 2020 elections there is absolutely no chance that Democrats will be campaigning on a healthcare platform that calls for returning to Obamacare or 'repairing' it. That was tried and failed - total nonstarter politically. The only thing that's left is single payer (Medicare-for-all)! Well, that's the big thing: the current bill doesn't return us to 2009. That's why conservatives hate it. It is not completely wrong that it's Obamacare lite. It keeps the medicaid expansion around for a while. It keeps subsidies, but makes them cheaper and stingier. It repeals the taxes. But the basic structure of Obamacare is still all intact. And that means that it's very easy for Democrats to fix when all hell breaks loose if it passes: they run on restoring the subsidies, and canceling the sunset of the medicaid expansion. Neither of those things change anything about the health care people currently have. All those regulations that sunseted poo poo insurance? Still intact. All you need is a more viable replacement for the individual mandate. So Republicans are discredited, Democrats restore Obamacare, and the principle that it is the government's job to help all people get health care gets firmly rooted in the law. Where you go from there, assuming that anyone is still interested in touching health care with a ten foot pole after 12 years of nonstop political combat about it, would be a public option. The core lesson from all of this is that people don't like the health care system, but the vast majority of people have coverage that is "good enough" that they are scared of losing it. That's why Obamacare tried so hard to advertise people could keep their insurance. That's why repeal of Obamacare was so much easier before everyone had Obamacare. People do not like uncertainty in their health care and want to, at a minimum, keep everything they have. So the natural outgrowth isn't medicare for all in 2020, it's a public option for under served areas - nobody has to use it. Questionable if you could muscle it through with insurance company opposition, but there are no natural other constituencies that would suffer from one. And you can expand the public option from there: its always going to be somewhat handicapped from the possibility Republicans take over and privatize it or whatever, but its the most obvious next step.
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Mar 10, 2017 19:07
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Given that the medicaid expansion is reasonably popular even in some red states, has anyone thought about making the "public option" just expanding medicaid to anyone who isn't already insured or eligible for medicare/tricare/whatever else? The only real complication I can think of is the SCOTUS decision that made it optional for each state.
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Mar 10, 2017 19:14
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sharkbomb posted:But let's consider if Republicans are able to nuke the ACA and return us to the bad-old days of 2009. In that case, in the 2020 elections there is absolutely no chance that Democrats will be campaigning on a healthcare platform that calls for returning to Obamacare or 'repairing' it. That was tried and failed - total nonstarter politically. The only thing that's left is single payer (Medicare-for-all)! Trump securing the border and purging illegals would also get rid of the "b-b-but why do we have to pay for non-Americans under single-payer" as a talking point for Republicans
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Mar 10, 2017 19:15
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SousaphoneColossus posted:Given that the medicaid expansion is reasonably popular even in some red states, has anyone thought about making the "public option" just expanding medicaid to anyone who isn't already insured or eligible for medicare/tricare/whatever else? The only real complication I can think of is the SCOTUS decision that made it optional for each state. 1) The Supreme Court decision is a huge stumbling block 2) That would require enormous increases in state funds that many states can't or won't do
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Mar 10, 2017 19:21
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Dmitri-9 posted:Being the silent, passive party with no ideas or beliefs doesn't strike me as a good strategy. If they can't make political hay out of stupid policies no progress will be made, the status quo will be eroded out from under them. There is only one winning strat right now in health care politics, it is Medicare for All/ public option Medicare, and it is politically impossible until after the Republicans fall on their faces. Health care is in a state of market failure and anything short of single payer is just going to force the party in power to own that failure.
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Mar 10, 2017 19:22
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:1) The Supreme Court decision is a huge stumbling block You'd have to make it fully federally funded.
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Mar 10, 2017 19:22
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SousaphoneColossus posted:Given that the medicaid expansion is reasonably popular even in some red states, has anyone thought about making the "public option" just expanding medicaid to anyone who isn't already insured or eligible for medicare/tricare/whatever else? The only real complication I can think of is the SCOTUS decision that made it optional for each state. No that's also a good option, its just expensive so you have to raise taxes, which imposes its own political cost. But that was one of the best aspects of Obamacare and one of the things currently making it hard as balls to repeal, because the expansion red states aren't interested in giving it up.
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Mar 10, 2017 19:24
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