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I like how Tiggum's both declared how it's impossible to play a role in a game because it's hard coded then asked why devs only allow certain choices when playing as a character.quote:Does anyone find morality systems in games compelling anyway? I don't think one has ever added to my experience. I think individual instances can make quests or scenarios stand out, but entire systems just become distracting systems to game. To go back to Metro 2033, I found its system for it compelling entirely because the game never tells you anywhere, in the manual or otherwise, that there actually is one, nor is there any ingame indication of what your "karma" is. Your first time through most of the white flashes happen around hallucinations (probably) and most of the negative indicators just seem like dripping pipes. Beyond what was already mentioned, Last Light's system didn't work as well because everyone already knew it was going to have one and what you'd probably have to do for the good ending. On top of that, to get the alternate ending, you have to additionally realize that the game has given you back control of the character in the last few seconds before the missiles fire. RBA Starblade has a new favorite as of 15:08 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 15:05
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2house2fly posted:less petty: I wish they'd give you an enemy-free run from the save point to the boss because the thrill of taking down a werewolf is subject to some real diminishing returns when I'm swatting them aside two at a time on my way to try and kill the blood starved beast for the third time
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Mar 10, 2017 15:05
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Morpheus posted:Goddamn I loved the morality system in Planescape Torment, because it wasn't a system where 'good' options where highlighted blue or whatever garbage. It utilized the alignment system of D&D really well, which is a tough feat, by giving you a bevy of options in numerous scenarios that would slide your scale in the appropriate direction, without making it explicit. I'm not even sure if alignment actually affected anything beyond the ability to use certain equipment. K. J. Parker's Engineer trilogy is basically about this kind of person - someone who has a very definite goal and will do anything to achieve it. It takes a while to get going but it's a good read in my opinion!
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Mar 10, 2017 15:27
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RareAcumen posted:Christ, you'd think this wouldn't be a thing after Tactics Ogre tried it like 20 years ago and it was awful. I thought the dumb crafting was yet another thing the remake added to make the game just as grindy as it's SNES counterpart in different ways.
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Mar 10, 2017 16:37
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RBA Starblade posted:I like how Tiggum's both declared how it's impossible to play a role in a game because it's hard coded then asked why devs only allow certain choices when playing as a character. The argument is that, because the devs have programmed all of the possibilities you can make, you aren't playing a role because you don't have complete freedom of choice, and therefore if you have a "choice" where you can do X person's quests or Y person's quests, that isn't roleplaying since the choice has already been structured for you, it's more like a level select screen and it's bad design that you can't do both. And I guess you either agree with that or you don't but I don't think there's a way to convince someone one way or the other on the issue.
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Mar 10, 2017 16:40
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2house2fly posted:less petty: I wish they'd give you an enemy-free run from the save point to the boss because the thrill of taking down a werewolf is subject to some real diminishing returns when I'm swatting them aside two at a time on my way to try and kill the blood starved beast for the third time Better solution: don't make the player waste time running back across the same pointless poo poo every single time they die to a boss in general. From software has copy pasted this into every souls game and then bloodborne and it's been poo poo every time. Even in the chalice dungeons where there's always a set and relatively short distance from the boss door and the lantern, you're looking at about a minute between each attempt when you factor in the bloodborne-length load times, which is way too goddamn long once things get instakilly enough that they could take you 30 tries or more (as several of them did the first time I fought them). That's 30 minutes not even doing anything but waiting and running back. Super meat boy still understands this better than anything else I've played. If your game is going to be really hard, minimize the delay between subsequent attempts. Nioh does the same thing bloodborne/souls games do with the run back which is awful, but its load times are so optimized that a load screen after a loss can be as little as 5 seconds or less.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:08
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gently caress!!! gently caress!!!!! gently caress!!!! I HATE VIDEO GAMES!!!12 gently caress THEM ALL!!!!! FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUJICKFAAS
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Mar 10, 2017 17:11
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Guy Mann posted:My favorite morality choice in the Bioshock series was the one in 2 with Gil Alexander because it was so ambiguous that people legitimately disagreed about what the right choice was and even blamed the game devs for being "wrong" with how they ranked your decision. The fact that they created a situation where a considerable number of people though that killing a defenseless man trapped in a tank begging for his life was not only justifiable but actually Good and could argue to support it was really cool. That said, I wonder how much of that disagreement was borne of the inclusion of a single morality achievement, which you only get for sparing all three people you have the option of killing.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:29
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One of my favorite moral choices was in Dragon Age Origins' mage tower. You run into a man possessed by a succubus. You're given the choice to kill her or let her go. She claims she just wants to live in the mortal world and if you let her go she won't harm anyone. But of course it could easily be all a lie. And most importantly, once your choice is made, you're never told if what you did was the right thing or not.
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Mar 10, 2017 18:38
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I think removing boss runs and adding checkpoints to bosses would hurt the tension in from soft games. I mean the hardest bosses tend to have pretty painless runs anyways. I just don't see myself feeling a lot of pressure if I can just respawn right outside and walk right in for another go. Most runs aren't all that hard anyways, and the choice is a very deliberate one. From soft games are all about tension and risks. The highs and sense of accomplishment wouldn't be as good without any risk. As is, many feel that bonfires have become too frequent since the first game. I kinda agree, I liked being terrified about the prospet of possibly not reaching the next one in time. Fear is good If you don't like your video games to feel like work, the souls borne series is just not catered to your tastes. Personally I am loving hooked. KingSlime has a new favorite as of 19:17 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 19:14
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KingSlime posted:From soft games are all about tension and risks. The highs and sense of accomplishment wouldn't be as good without any risk. This is true, and even when BB is aggravating it's a AAA game that feels like an auteur's uncompromising vision, which is rare. I'm just bad at the bosses 
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Mar 10, 2017 19:50
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:gently caress!!! gently caress!!!!! gently caress!!!! I HATE VIDEO GAMES!!!12 gently caress THEM ALL!!!!! FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUJICKFAAS finally someone who gets it
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Mar 10, 2017 19:52
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As dumb as it sounds, if there was a "retry at boss fight with no penalty" option in Dark Souls/Bloodborne, I feel like the frustrating fights would be even worse because I'd just be endlessly bashing my head against the wall, getting more and more frustrated really rapidly. The solution to a hard fight in DS is always to just get up and play a different game and try again later, but barring that, even the couple minutes' downtime between events lets me cool off a little bit. But that's just me, I dunno. When the runback involves a lot of fighting mooks, like Iron Keep in DS2, that sucks a lot, because that's certainly too much effort to have to put in between boss attempts.
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Mar 10, 2017 19:57
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I find that the solution to a hard fight in Bloodborne is to thoroughly explore the area for collectables and build up a healthy supply of aid items, coincidentally amassing tens of thousands of xp in the process 
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Mar 10, 2017 20:46
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RyokoTK posted:As dumb as it sounds, if there was a "retry at boss fight with no penalty" option in Dark Souls/Bloodborne, I feel like the frustrating fights would be even worse because I'd just be endlessly bashing my head against the wall, getting more and more frustrated really rapidly. You also get used to running the same short area over and over again, which leads to you generally getting used to "doing better and better at things over time by failing a bunch" which is what the Souls series is all about. The first time I ever fought Quelaag, I fuckin' lost probably 30k souls all up between slog-fighting those rock throwers, trying to farm the maggot dudes, getting mobbed by the bloodflies, and the actual boss fight. These days I know that I get the anti-swamp ring first, outrun the bloodflies, make a wide berth around the rock throwers or slit 'em up in a backstab frenzy, and just don't pay attention to the maggot dudes, I'll hit Quelaag with most of my health bar intact- and I know there's a bonfire afterward so I don't need to worry about powerslamming a Humanity to heal up afterward. Tell you what, there's nothing quite like the feeling of acing poo poo in Dark Souls. Most games, once I'm good at 'em, they feel boring; nothing can challenge me because nothing really ever did. Dark Souls, I still remember (vividly) just how horrific my first runs were, so when I play again and end up making it to like Ornstein and Smough with two deaths and 20 humanity it feels amazing.
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Mar 10, 2017 21:15
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Nothing improved my experience with the technical war crime that is loran darkbeast quite like having to run back across the same empty hallway for the (literally) thirtieth time. Times one through twenty nine were all just part of the process of coming to understand from software's immaculate vision.
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Mar 10, 2017 21:21
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The best part is nobody knows exactly how it would feel if you didn't have boss runs in souls games.
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Mar 10, 2017 21:23
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Yeah we do, she's called maria and she is an absolute breath of fresh air by virtue of having a lantern directly outside her door
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Mar 10, 2017 21:28
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I was gonna say, there are definitely bosses without a run. Plus souls borne aren't the only games with pattern based bosses that require practice and learning their tells, and plenty of them include a checkpoint right before the boss. So yeah we definitely have an idea of what that's like. I like the slog. It adds to the sense of oppression, a key theme in these games. That said, there are some lovely instances and it's not surprising that most of them revolve around chalice dungeons, the one feature of the game that sort of shits on the design philisophy of the rest of the games. I still enjoyed them but it took some time for me to warm up to the idea, and I never did finish them. They're just not that fun.
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Mar 10, 2017 21:37
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KingSlime posted:I was gonna say, there are definitely bosses without a run. I'm the idiot who platted BB and I will never do a chalice dungeon again in my life so help me god.
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Mar 10, 2017 21:45
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Digirat posted:Yeah we do, she's called maria and she is an absolute breath of fresh air by virtue of having a lantern directly outside her door I meant all the bosses. It's more a point about how it's hard to judge exactly what parts of a game are actually adding to the overall experience in a significant way. There are people who will defend durability in those games like it actually adds to the experience but I suspect it wouldn't have been missed if the games never had it. Boss runs it's harder. I think some bosses it adds to it like the boss is just the end of the stage rather than its own separate thing. The Taurus Demon comes to mind here. But something like O&S I could have done without the boss run.
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Mar 10, 2017 21:57
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Is the challenge of reaching the boss to be taken as part of the challenge in beating the boss, basically.
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Mar 10, 2017 22:17
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I suppose there's a psychological effect too- having a boss a bit of a distance away from the save point tells you "you don't have to fight this guy again right away, get some more levels, get more preparation in and go back to him later"
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Mar 10, 2017 22:29
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But my souuuuuuuuuls
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Mar 10, 2017 22:35
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KingSlime posted:If you don't like your video games to feel like work, the souls borne series is just not catered to your tastes. Personally I am loving hooked. this is why my friend couldn't get into the series and why he gave me his copy of bloodborne. I'm gonna return the favor by recording all my successful attempts at the bosses to show him what he's missing out. he likes challenging fights and still remembers ninja gaiden fondly but can't find the time to invest in the trial and error nature required for souls games.
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Mar 10, 2017 23:31
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Action Tortoise posted:this is why my friend couldn't get into the series and why he gave me his copy of bloodborne. Titan Souls is a game that's nothing but pretty cool boss fights. Except the last one. The last boss in that game is a piece of poo poo that just expects you to manage way too much with what the game's system lets you do.
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Mar 10, 2017 23:37
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Nuebot posted:Titan Souls is a game that's nothing but pretty cool boss fights. You can apparently exploit his AI which is way, way way a better idea than fighting him normally.
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Mar 10, 2017 23:56
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Pseudohog posted:K. J. Parker's Engineer trilogy is basically about this kind of person - someone who has a very definite goal and will do anything to achieve it. It takes a while to get going but it's a good read in my opinion! Also, the count of Monte Cristo, and Bester's The Stars My Destination. Dang good books with ridiculously driven characters. Amoral, too.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:15
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RyokoTK posted:As dumb as it sounds, if there was a "retry at boss fight with no penalty" option in Dark Souls/Bloodborne, I feel like the frustrating fights would be even worse because I'd just be endlessly bashing my head against the wall, getting more and more frustrated really rapidly. The worst is the run to Velstadt in DS2. Best case scenario, you have to slowly go through a gauntlet of heavily armored enemies one or two at a time to get to him again. Running straight through almost guarantees taking good damage or dying, and Velstadt is one of the bosses that 1 mistake will mean the end of the fight.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:39
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Captain Lavender posted:The worst is the run to Velstadt in DS2. Best case scenario, you have to slowly go through a gauntlet of heavily armored enemies one or two at a time to get to him again. Running straight through almost guarantees taking good damage or dying, and Velstadt is one of the bosses that 1 mistake will mean the end of the fight. He's also probably the easiest fight in the game though. Big slow clunky dude who spends half his time trying to cast spells he won't ever get off.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:42
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I think SotFS might have changed the worst boss run to Smelter Demon. In my last playthrough I died to the knights way more often than I died to the boss.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:42
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Nuebot posted:He's also probably the easiest fight in the game though. Big slow clunky dude who spends half his time trying to cast spells he won't ever get off. Maybe it's because I played with Caestuses only, and that created a specific challenge to me. Cause yeah, fighting him time and time again was brutal. The only boss I died more to were the Gargoyles. No shield on that fight no long range attacks - gently caress.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:05
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Captain Lavender posted:The worst is the run to Velstadt in DS2. Best case scenario, you have to slowly go through a gauntlet of heavily armored enemies one or two at a time to get to him again. Running straight through almost guarantees taking good damage or dying, and Velstadt is one of the bosses that 1 mistake will mean the end of the fight. I think you might have missed unlocking a shortcut, though I haven't played through DS2 in a while. Pretty sure once you unlocked it you could run straight from the bonfire into that hall before his boss room with the statues, ghosts and knights in it. Unless that's the room you're talking about, but I never had any trouble just sprinting past them all and only taking one or two hits at most. Now the boss runs for the DS2 DLC bosses, those were some bullshit. The Iron Passage and Frozen Wastes are absolute garbage.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:06
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Kay Kessler posted:One of my favorite moral choices was in Dragon Age Origins' mage tower. You run into a man possessed by a succubus. You're given the choice to kill her or let her go. She claims she just wants to live in the mortal world and if you let her go she won't harm anyone. But of course it could easily be all a lie. And most importantly, once your choice is made, you're never told if what you did was the right thing or not. I actually really like DA:O for moral choices overall. I think the biggest reason is that the game doesn't care or comment on it. Party members or NPCs do, but there's no karma meter going YOU HAVE DONE BAD or rewards system dispensing powerups for every five BADs.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:11
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Now the boss runs for the DS2 DLC bosses, those were some bullshit. The Iron Passage and Frozen Wastes are absolute garbage. the iron passage is utter horseshit and im never, ever going to attempt it again. it is so bad.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:30
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Captain Lavender posted:Maybe it's because I played with Caestuses only, and that created a specific challenge to me. Cause yeah, fighting him time and time again was brutal. The only boss I died more to were the Gargoyles. No shield on that fight no long range attacks - gently caress. Fist weapons in 2 were fun. It's hard if you let him get his spells off I guess, yeah. My first playthrough in a dark souls is always UGS though so 
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Mar 11, 2017 01:33
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He is also insanely parryable and when you do it seemed to change his AI, he attacked far less and hangs back. When he switches to dark damage he will usually only attack with two handed attacks which are hugely telegraphed.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:35
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Also caestuses are actually terrible for damage output without landing a bunch of hits in a row, so bosses where you need to capitalize on openings make them much, much harder. The difference between fighting artorias with a sword and a caestus are staggering
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Mar 11, 2017 02:09
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just use your fists man
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Mar 11, 2017 03:03
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spit on my clit posted:just use your fists man
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Mar 11, 2017 03:43
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