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Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed. |
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| Jeremy Corbyn |
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95 | 18.63% |
| Dennis Skinner |
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53 | 10.39% |
| Angus Robertson |
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20 | 3.92% |
| Tim Farron |
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9 | 1.76% |
| Paul Ukips |
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7 | 1.37% |
| Robot Lenin |
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105 | 20.59% |
| Tony Blair |
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28 | 5.49% |
| Pissflaps |
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193 | 37.84% |
| Total: | 510 votes | ||
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Paxman posted:Corbyn was asked specifically how enthusiastic he was about staying in the EU, not whether the EU was perfect. "Seven and a half" out of ten was a dumb answer to that question. Which is a load of crap because Labour - at ~66% - delivered as strong a remain vote as the SNP (and the Lib Dems only achieved like 75% despite their 2015 vote clearly being a hardcore rump) whereas Cameron and the Tories only managed half that despite being the government telling their people what's good for them. Which is to say this: 2015 Labour voters constituted the largest number of remain voters so anyone who thinks Labour lost the referendum can gently caress right off. Lord of the Llamas fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 23:19
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Which is a load of crap because Labour - at ~66% - delivered as strong a remain vote as the SNP (and the Lib Dems only achieved like 75% despite their 2015 vote clearly being a hardcore rump) whereas Cameron and the Tories only managed half that despite being the government telling their people what's good for them.
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Mar 10, 2017 23:23
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jBrereton posted:If that's the case why did so many Labour constituencies vote to Leave? Non-voters turning out for Leave? I mean, that's the thing about non-voters, isn't it? They don't vote. So when they do all of a sudden decide to vote, who knows what's going to happen? With that in mind, accepting Brexit as the democratic reality is the most sensible thing Corbyn can do, because a) the last thing he wants is UKIP (or potentially even the Conservatives) managing to mobilise those voters against Labour in a "Save Our Brexit" campaign; and b) realistically, where else are the Labour Remainers dissatisfied with his Brexit position going to go? Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 23:26
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Which is a load of crap because Labour - at ~66% - delivered as strong a remain vote as the SNP (and the Lib Dems only achieved like 75% despite their 2015 vote clearly being a hardcore rump) whereas Cameron and the Tories only managed half that despite being the government telling their people what's good for them. Those numbers don't contradict anything I said though (I said Corbyn was a lousy campaigner in the referendum, not that Labour voters are anti-EU)
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Mar 10, 2017 23:29
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jBrereton posted:If that's the case why did so many Labour constituencies vote to Leave? Not every labour constituency has voted 100% Labour.
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Mar 10, 2017 23:29
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jBrereton posted:If that's the case why did so many Labour constituencies vote to Leave? Because even strong Labour seats still have Tory and UKIP voters who probably constituted the bulk of the leave vote? Paxman posted:Those numbers don't contradict anything I said though (I said Corbyn was a lousy campaigner in the referendum, not that Labour voters are anti-EU) Your assertion is that Corbyn was a lousy campaigner in the referendum and yet the Labour remain vote wasn't much different to the other pro-EU parties whose leaders aren't getting poo poo all over. So either his "lousy" campaigning didn't matter, or it wasn't lousy. Or Corbyn would've otherwise delivered a miracle compared to well known terrible politicians like Nicola Sturgeon? Lord of the Llamas fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 23:29
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Sometimes I read Europol and then I feel less unhappy about Brexit.
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Mar 10, 2017 23:30
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Wheat Loaf posted:Unionist, but not dead set against a united Ireland in the near or distant future on principle. What is Unionist as a political leaning, other than generally wanting Northern Ireland to remain in the UK? Is there a Unionist view on whether an economic system based on people selling their labour is a good thing, or whether healthcare should be provided by the state?
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Mar 10, 2017 23:38
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Paxman posted:What is Unionist as a political leaning, other than generally wanting Northern Ireland to remain in the UK? Is there a Unionist view on whether an economic system based on people selling their labour is a good thing, or whether healthcare should be provided by the state? Unionism in Northern Ireland has usually incorporated a kind of quasi-corporatist cross-class state paternalism that eschews class politics - untangling Unionism the concept from Unionism the political movement that drove the state for half a century is tricky
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Mar 10, 2017 23:45
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It's the three line whip people are mad about though. He didn't have a choice between two options, he had a choice between four. In order, theres: a) try to overturn the result of the referendum b) voting against the bill until it's amended c) allowing your MPs a free vote d) whipping your MPs to vote against the wishes of two-thirds of the parties voters (and probably 80% of the party's members) All the defenders there are saying he had no choice, when he did. That's why people feel betrayed, it's the symbolism. He could have said it was a free vote, knowing full well the result would be the same, and took so much less heat from his supporters. Hoops fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 23:49
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Paxman posted:What is Unionist as a political leaning, other than generally wanting Northern Ireland to remain in the UK? Is there a Unionist view on whether an economic system based on people selling their labour is a good thing, or whether healthcare should be provided by the state? To be perfectly honest, I don't know. Historically, unionism was based on an alliance of urban Protestant industrial workers and a pseudo-aristocratic class of wealthy Protestant landowners bound together by the shared experience of the First World War in general and the Battle of the Somme in particular. That's why so many of the leading unionist politicians of the 1922-1972 period continued to be referred to by their military ranks in peacetime, sometimes many years after the war had ended, e.g. Captain Terence O'Neill and Major James Chichester-Clark; the implicit message was, "We fought and bled for Ulster as well." While the Official Unionist Party, which governed Northern Ireland from its inception through to direct rule, was essentially conservative, they implemented most of Labour's reforms after 1945 because the priority was very much on avoiding very large controversies that would make Westminster start looking at the dodgy way they were running things. The problem was very clear in the last election. The DUP had no clear platform - no positive reason for voting for them - beyond warning against Gerry Adams Sinn Fein/IRA and his all-Ireland radical republican agenda. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 23:54
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Because even strong Labour seats still have Tory and UKIP voters who probably constituted the bulk of the leave vote? Labour voters backing remain doesnt somehow prove Corbyn was a good campaigner. We have no way of knowing how much any individual politician's performance affected the vote. Labour voters probably largely backed EU membership even before the campaign began, and if their views did change then we have no way of knowong if that was down to Corbyn or any of the other people they heard from. But we know Corbyn did a poor job of a campaigning because he went on the telly and said he was 7 out of ten in favour of the position he was supposedly campaigning for.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:01
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Paxman posted:Labour voters backing remain doesnt somehow prove Corbyn was a good campaigner. We have no way of knowing how much any individual politician's performance affected the vote. Labour voters probably largely backed EU membership even before the campaign began, and if their views did change then we have no way of knowong if that was down to Corbyn or any of the other people they heard from. This is as valid as saying politician X alienated swing voters by saying they were 10/10 for the EU because it showed they obviously didn't take their concerns about the EU seriously. What a load of crap. Edit: "If Corbyn had said 10 I would've voted remain" is something nobody has ever said. Lord of the Llamas fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Mar 11, 2017 |
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Mar 11, 2017 00:05
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I keep saying it but I appreciated the 7/10. As Lord of the Llamas put it, it was a summary of the "things aren't okay but we're better off in" position. You can't say everything's fine and more of the same if things are demonstrably really poo poo for people; you've got to argue that remaining in the EU was going to be the beginning of a different kind of change to Brexit.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:10
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I think Corbyn, at best, made no difference to how many labour voters voted Remain.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:11
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^^^ Well of course you don't. Corbyn badLord of the Llamas posted:Which is a load of crap because Labour - at ~66% - delivered as strong a remain vote as the SNP (and the Lib Dems only achieved like 75% despite their 2015 vote clearly being a hardcore rump) whereas Cameron and the Tories only managed half that despite being the government telling their people what's good for them. I don't know if there are any updated numbers that contradict this, but the lib dems didn't get that much: 
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Mar 11, 2017 00:29
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curse all those green voters, who would possibly want their vote EDIT: I'm still  at 4% UKIP voting for remain.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:32
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baka kaba posted:^^^ Well of course you don't. Corbyn bad Well, yes.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:37
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spectralent posted:EDIT: I'm still Wives who pretend to support UKIP otherwise the husbands would beat them.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:39
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spectralent posted:EDIT: I'm still That's the UKIP MEP's and staff who were horrified at the thought of their gravy train getting derailed.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:39
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We know there were plenty of Did Not Votes who came out to vote Leave, but was there anyone who voted in 2015 who didn't vote at all in the Referendum? Even just enough to make up 1% for one of the parties? Other than General China, who drew a cat.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:44
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Guavanaut posted:We know there were plenty of Did Not Votes who came out to vote Leave, but was there anyone who voted in 2015 who didn't vote at all in the Referendum? Even just enough to make up 1% for one of the parties? It's weird, I can't find anything that's bothered to ask non-voters. The closest I've seen is the Ashcroft data which has a 'have you voted yet' result from before the referendum and all the results are - - - - - - - A cat is clearly a Remain vote, they love doing that
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Mar 11, 2017 01:12
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It is of course ironic that David Cameron caused Brexit and a hard core Tory government when he is of course a Lib Dem at heart. As in the group of people who want to play government as long as nothing ever actually changes really at all but we all really pretend we want stuff to change because we totally understand stuff guys.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:29
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It is also ironic that he once hosed a dead pig.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:31
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It is also ironic that he once hosed a dead pig. Oh for fucks sake. Irony is when something happens that is the opposite of what you expect would happen as a result of your actions. David Cameron loving a dead pig is not ironic. David Cameron loving a dead pig is plausible and kind of expected. David Cameron's mother complaining to their local council about cuts was ironic. Lord of the Llamas fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Mar 11, 2017 |
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Mar 11, 2017 01:32
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For the record, I was looking into the numbers tonight and the referendum was counted at a local authority level, which don't roll up exactly into GE constituencies so take any extrapolation of "X% of Party Y voters voted Leave/Remain" only as someone's educated guess.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:36
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Hoops posted:For the record, I was looking into the numbers tonight and the referendum was counted at a local authority level, which don't roll up exactly into GE constituencies so take any extrapolation of "X% of Party Y voters voted Leave/Remain" only as someone's educated guess. Presumably you'd know (if you asked) who voted for who at an election, and what they did in the referendum, though? Labour voters who voted leave are the same regardless of the way you organise your samples.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:41
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This is pretty funny, crosspost from the political 'toon thread.Cloud Potato posted:Times: Bit surprised how much the government is getting hammered for that budget. Sure they did break a manifesto commitment. But, to be frank, which political party hasn't; and it could easily brushed off as "that was before Brexit and the current cabinet". Maybe media feels secure to criticise the government a bit now, what with how the current polls look for Labour.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:42
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"Accidentally"
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Mar 11, 2017 01:45
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spectralent posted:Presumably you'd know (if you asked) who voted for who at an election, and what they did in the referendum, though? Labour voters who voted leave are the same regardless of the way you organise your samples.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:50
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spectralent posted:Presumably you'd know (if you asked) who voted for who at an election, and what they did in the referendum, though? Labour voters who voted leave are the same regardless of the way you organise your samples. I'm not sure how often it happens but a not insignificant number of people who voted for whoever lost will say they voted for the winner when polled (at least in U.S. presidential elections). It would be interesting to see if it happens on a constituency or nationwide level in the UK - is it Tory voters in Labour constituencies saying they voted Labour (and vice versa), or Labour voters across the UK saying they voted Tory?
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Mar 11, 2017 01:51
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Private Speech posted:This is pretty funny, crosspost from the political 'toon thread. Not raising taxes is like, literally, their thing. Also lots of journalists are self-employed.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:52
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Yeah a lot of the big backlash against the ni change is that it will affect journalists
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Mar 11, 2017 01:55
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Hoops posted:Two of the reports I saw (that most of the newspapers referenced) were both done as extrapolations of vote splits in local authorities, to determine how many MPs were in "Leave" constituencies but voted against Article 50 etc. If there are standard polls that ask those two questions then I agree that's a simpler method, but I didn't actually see any done based on poll data when I was googling before. Oh, huh, that is one hell of an inference then. I assumed people were just polled "Which way do you vote on party lines and which way did you vote in the election?". Private Speech posted:This is pretty funny, crosspost from the political 'toon thread. It's all bollocks because until austerity's lifted it's titanic deckchairs criticism. Also everyone's going on about the NI increase and nobody's challenging that A: All those super generous budget boosts are actually just reversing stuff that was taken out of the economy, B: Asking where all the money's going if the chancellor keeps saying the economy's growing but more and more people are feeling a squeeze, and C: Why we're in an economy that's strong enough to wiggle on corporation tax but not strong enough to fund public services properly. also D: blatant corruption in the council sweetheart deal.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:57
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Surrey creates wealth so if you don't understand why that means the government must give them extra money then you clearly don't understand free market capitalism at all. loving commies.
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Mar 11, 2017 02:00
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Again, understanding 'most Labour voters went remain, but most Labour constituencies voted Leave' is not all that hard if you remember that Britain uses an FPTP system, where you only need a plurality, rather than a majority, to win. Or, to put it another way, a 'safe' seat is one where you always get 40% of the vote and your closest competition can only manage 30% at best. In a yes/no referendum, though, the vote can't be split, and so a bunch of Labour MPs had to deal with the uncomfortable realisation that a majority of their constituents don't agree with their policies, and have only failed to boot them out because they can't decide whether they like UKIP, the Conservatives, or the BNP more. This is also why Labour's traditional safe seats are now in serious trouble - with the collapse of UKIP and the Lib Dems, their opponents are now unified behind a single party, May's Conservatives. We saw this in Stoke and Copeland - the Labour vote share didn't change much in either, but the Stoke vote was split by a massive UKIP effort, and the Copeland one wasn't.
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Mar 11, 2017 02:02
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Hoops posted:Two of the reports I saw (that most of the newspapers referenced) were both done as extrapolations of vote splits in local authorities, to determine how many MPs were in "Leave" constituencies but voted against Article 50 etc. If there are standard polls that ask those two questions then I agree that's a simpler method, but I didn't actually see any done based on poll data when I was googling before. Here's the Ashcroft report here's the data from the polling linked at the end
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Mar 11, 2017 02:03
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Private Speech posted:This is pretty funny, crosspost from the political 'toon thread. They raised taxes. That's a big no-no that comes directly from Murdoch and his fellow media barons. You don't raise taxes, you slash public spending and drat the consequences. The irony is that May/Hammond genuinely seem to be more principled than Cameron/Osborne which is probably why they did it, and it's that tiny sliver of principle that has finally got them hammered by the media. EDIT: And of course at this point in the parliament with Labour so far behind the media can afford to hammer the Tories without actually risking the next election. Come 2020 it'll be a lot easier for May to act how she wants because the media will be obliged to tongue bath her whatever she does to make sure they stay in power. jabby fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Mar 11, 2017 |
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Mar 11, 2017 02:05
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Wheat Loaf posted:b) realistically, where else are the Labour Remainers dissatisfied with his Brexit position going to go? Since when has New Labour been allowed to post ITT?
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Mar 11, 2017 02:07
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39230239 Hmmmm
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Mar 11, 2017 02:14
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