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Ze Pollack posted:It was an institutional enough problem, however, that, the way it was uncovered was someone asking the question "why, exactly, have ethiopian immigrants to Israel ceased having children. at all" instead of any Israeli medical professional asking why, exactly, sterilization treatments were suddenly part of Standard Immigration Procedure. Hmmm, any source for that? The closest I can find is that Gal Gabai claims that there was a 50% decrease in childbirth among the Ethiopian community in the decade following their immigration to Israel. Should also be noted that a Depo-Provera shot only lasts for three months and that from an original immigrant population of around 35,000 there are now some 154,000 Ethiopian-Jews living in Israel and that whole genocide thing seems somewhat sensationalist.
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Mar 9, 2017 20:03
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It was contraceptive, not sterilization. And as far as I know there were absolutely zero evidence that it was sanctioned at ministry level.
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Mar 9, 2017 20:32
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Ze Pollack posted:A Likud government couldn't find anyone to say "this is official immigration policy." For that level of institutional, sure. The problem with connecting it to the Israeli government is that the shots were prescribed by medical NGOs which were not under the control of the Israeli government, in aid camps run by NGOs not under the control of the Israeli government. Israeli ministries were impressed with the high participation rate in the NGOs' family planning programs, but there's no indication that they realized that participation wasn't as "voluntary" as it was supposed to be. There was definitely misconduct somewhere along the line, but there's zero evidence to support the accusation that it was the result of official Israeli government policy, and the leader of the medical program in question has a solid enough reputation for his previous aid work in Ethiopia that I have a hard time believing he would knowingly carry out an ethnic cleansing program even if it were demanded by the Israeli government.
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Mar 9, 2017 20:52
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Svartvit posted:It was contraceptive, not sterilization. And as far as I know there were absolutely zero evidence that it was sanctioned at ministry level. And the investigation into Abu Ghraib revealed that definitely, nobody above sergeant rank was involved in any meaningful way. I'll cop to hyperbole charges on "at all-" the birth rate was merely cut in half before anyone in the health ministry thought to ask why it was that all these women were showing up with a nice fresh "schedule for another birth control shot every three months, don't bother her with the details" note attached to their paperwork. After, of course, their original response of "no, that's crazy, nothing like that's happening, these women are definitely lying." But hey, what's a little stopping the untermenschen from breeding among friends, am I right? Must have been a few bad apples, who for some odd reason were in a position to cut the immigrant birth rate in half with not a single finger raised to stop them until an outside journalist started asking questions.
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Mar 9, 2017 21:26
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Ze Pollack posted:And the investigation into Abu Ghraib revealed that definitely, nobody above sergeant rank was involved in any meaningful way. Ah, so you just came up with a nonsense number and now you're willing to accept another number even though you actually haven't researched the topic yourself, at all. That's pretty interesting because Gabai's figure actually discusses not the decade following the immigration to Israel but rather the decade between 2003-2013, it would seem strange if forced Depo injections given in 1990 would cause this sort of reduction in child birth after a decade. Perhaps some alternative explanation could possibly be the integration of the Ethiopian community with the rest of Israeli society and the increase in their standards of living and expenses, I mean, this is of course all unlikely, because a documentary filmmaker drew a conclusion at 2013. Anyone who'll actually google this topic and read the actual testimonials by the Ethiopian women who've been interviewed by Gabbai could tell you that while there are a few women who did claim that the women at the joint clinics told them that if they won't take Depo they won't be allowed to make Aliyah the majority of the women interviewed only claim that they were given Depo without being properly briefed on its side effects and that they agreed to take the contraceptives willingly. In fact, some additional reading on the subject shows that Depo is a very popular contraceptive in Ethiopia and in Africa in general and that even today, 30 years later, it is still widely used by Ethiopian women in Israel (who account for almost 100% of Depo users in Israel). So, yeah. I mean, it could just be Israel being kinda bad at doing genocide again I guess.
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Mar 9, 2017 22:09
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Ze Pollack posted:It was an institutional enough problem, however, that, the way it was uncovered was someone asking the question "why, exactly, have ethiopian immigrants to Israel ceased having children. at all" instead of any Israeli medical professional asking why, exactly, sterilization treatments were suddenly part of Standard Immigration Procedure.~
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Mar 9, 2017 22:44
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The episode from Gabai's show that actually broke the story in 2013 (hebrew) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSO0lTmYpc0 My take: There was definitely an aggressive policy by the JDC to push a 'family planning' agenda to Ethiopian women and the Israeli Ministry of Health was aware of the plan, several women testify that they were given the Depo without ever being told what it does and were instructed to renew their prescriptions in Israel as well, all the women interviewed by Gabai claim that they were not offered any alternatives to the Depo shots even after having agreed to take contraceptives. I would say all of these are clearly systematically racist, but I still think it's a far cry from genocide. After this episode aired Israel's surgeon general issued a notice that Depo prescriptions should only be renewed after the doctor meets with the patient and explains to her the side effects of the medication and the available alternatives, and indeed more than 30% of depo users opted to stop using it afterwards.
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Mar 9, 2017 22:55
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hakimashou posted:After what Europeans did to the Jews I don't blame them for being a little suspicious of foreign "critics." You do know that the main arguments of anti-semites against jews is the guilt tripping about holocaust to win every argument and silence any criticism? Funny that.
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Mar 9, 2017 23:25
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South Africa administers Depo-Porvera to impoverished women after child birth, typically without them understanding what it does. The idea being maybe its not so great for an impoverished women to be caring for 4+ children. Language barriers are an issue between the doctors and patients. Genocide isn't the only reason for this behaviour. There is also the fact that Israel is actually encouraging the immigration of Ethiopian Jews to Israel and to then genocide them, makes literally zero sense.
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Mar 10, 2017 02:28
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Ze Pollack posted:
Netanyahu has ministries that literally are searching Peru for anyone who has a curly pube who can claim the right of return, you really think he'd be against a huge infusion of Jews?
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Mar 10, 2017 03:05
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much like my heraldic bird, the quail, i will claim my right of return to israel only when the lord summons up an infestation of me so that the wanderers in the desert can feast upon my tender flesh
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Mar 10, 2017 03:14
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BattleMoose posted:South Africa administers Depo-Porvera to impoverished women after child birth, typically without them understanding what it does. The idea being maybe its not so great for an impoverished women to be caring for 4+ children. Language barriers are an issue between the doctors and patients. Genocide isn't the only reason for this behaviour. Intentionally sterilizing an ethnic group without their knowledge or consent, even if it's "for their own good", is highly unethical and borders on eugenics. I agree that it's almost certainly mostly a case of language barriers and well-meaning doctors trying to keep poor people from having more kids than they can afford, but even under those circumstances it's still a gross violation of medical ethics.
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Mar 10, 2017 03:14
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Main Paineframe posted:Intentionally sterilizing an ethnic group without their knowledge or consent, even if it's "for their own good", is highly unethical and borders on eugenics. I agree that it's almost certainly mostly a case of language barriers and well-meaning doctors trying to keep poor people from having more kids than they can afford, but even under those circumstances it's still a gross violation of medical ethics. I am not defending the behaviour. Just pointing out that it is not genocide.
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Mar 10, 2017 03:23
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Avshalom posted:much like my heraldic bird, the quail, i will claim my right of return to israel only when the lord summons up an infestation of me so that the wanderers in the desert can feast upon my tender flesh your flesh is tender and tasty, and most importantly, jewishly birdy
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Mar 10, 2017 11:08
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BattleMoose posted:I am not defending the behaviour. Just pointing out that it is not genocide. Yes it is Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
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Mar 10, 2017 11:48
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Piell posted:Yes it is Economic class on its own isn't usually perceived as a group applicable to the genocide convention though.
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Mar 10, 2017 12:27
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lollontee posted:You do know that the main arguments of anti-semites against jews is the guilt tripping about holocaust to win every argument and silence any criticism? Funny that. And what, you think the anti semites are right? Finish the thought.
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Mar 10, 2017 12:49
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lollontee posted:Economic class on its own isn't usually perceived as a group applicable to the genocide convention though. That would be why South Africa doesn't receive those accusations as often, because the administration of Depo is not as obviously on racial or ethnic grounds in their case.
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Mar 10, 2017 13:13
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hakimashou posted:And what, you think the anti semites are right? Finish the thought. Nah, it's just funny to watch oblivious asshats like you acting like picture perfect caricatures from fascist propaganda.
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Mar 10, 2017 13:27
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lollontee posted:Nah, it's just funny to watch oblivious asshats like you acting like picture perfect caricatures from fascist propaganda. What other truths should we cover up and ignore to placate and pander to fascists, if we don't want to be "oblivious asshats?"
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Mar 10, 2017 14:23
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hakimashou posted:What other truths should we cover up and ignore to placate and pander to fascists, if we don't want to be "oblivious asshats?" What you wrote was tasteless and dumb, get over it. Or do you want to keep invoking the souls of dead Jewish holocaust victims to get a little more edge to your Internet one-liners?
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Mar 10, 2017 15:09
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hakimashou posted:What other truths should we cover up and ignore to placate and pander to fascists The Nakba.
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Mar 10, 2017 15:38
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Cat Mattress posted:The Nakba. They aren't covering that up or ignoring it, they're just passing it through the Knesset instead.
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Mar 10, 2017 16:20
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Piell posted:Yes it is This here's the part that you are missing.
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Mar 10, 2017 16:24
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hakimashou posted:What other truths should we cover up and ignore to placate and pander to fascists, if we don't want to be "oblivious asshats?" Well, we could start with your posts.
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Mar 10, 2017 16:31
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We should cover up and ignore your posts is what I am saying.
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Mar 10, 2017 16:32
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Piell posted:Yes it is
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Mar 10, 2017 16:43
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Main Paineframe posted:Intentionally sterilizing an ethnic group without their knowledge or consent, even if it's "for their own good", is highly unethical and borders on eugenics. I agree that it's almost certainly mostly a case of language barriers and well-meaning doctors trying to keep poor people from having more kids than they can afford, but even under those circumstances it's still a gross violation of medical ethics. Let alone a general violation of Human rights regarding personal control of reproductive rights. The number of people treating this violation of human rights as no big deal and just a mistake is pretty goddamn disgusting. Imagine if the situation was reversed and it turned out doctors in New York were administering birth control shots to Jewish women every 3 months with very little evidence that consent had been given
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Mar 10, 2017 16:44
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Piell posted:Yes it is If you interpret that liberally, isn't almost any hate crime technically genocide then? I think broadening the definition to that extent isn't really useful and that it should at least be limited to actions undertaken as actual government policy.
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Mar 10, 2017 18:46
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Ytlaya posted:If you interpret that liberally, isn't almost any hate crime technically genocide then? I think broadening the definition to that extent isn't really useful and that it should at least be limited to actions undertaken as actual government policy. The "intent to destroy" part is critical, and international law has generally held that "in whole or in part" is basically meant to cover "only killing the people you can reach rather than going on a globetrotting international genocide expedition". You're not wrong that many lower-level crimes carried out by individuals can be covered, but that seems to be intentional - the first person convicted under that convention was a mayor, not a president.
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Mar 10, 2017 20:47
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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-palestinians-abbas-idUSKBN16H1IK Trump invited Abbas to WH
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Mar 10, 2017 22:07
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Trogdos! posted:http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-palestinians-abbas-idUSKBN16H1IK It's a trap!
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Mar 11, 2017 01:46
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Main Paineframe posted:The "intent to destroy" part is critical, and international law has generally held that "in whole or in part" is basically meant to cover "only killing the people you can reach rather than going on a globetrotting international genocide expedition". You're not wrong that many lower-level crimes carried out by individuals can be covered, but that seems to be intentional - the first person convicted under that convention was a mayor, not a president. I'm imagining a situation where some dude randomly sneaks up on someone else of a particular ethnic group and jabs them with a birth control shot and says "mwahaha, this is but the first step in my quest to remove (insert ethnic group) from the face of the Earth!" (This is not a serious example.)
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Mar 11, 2017 10:13
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https://twitter.com/AASchapiro/status/840658095391068162
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Mar 11, 2017 21:34
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I wonder what the new "obstacle to peace" will be if they go through with it.
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Mar 11, 2017 23:40
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Polygynous posted:I wonder what the new "obstacle to peace" will be if they go through with it. Probably the fact that it was ever in there at any time.
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Mar 11, 2017 23:42
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Polygynous posted:I wonder what the new "obstacle to peace" will be if they go through with it. They'll dismiss it as Taqiyya. 
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Mar 12, 2017 00:23
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Polygynous posted:I wonder what the new "obstacle to peace" will be if they go through with it. "Palestine does not have a united government" It's already in the top 3.
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Mar 12, 2017 10:35
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The secretery-general of ESCWA resigned after refusing to back down on a report describing israel as an apartheid state. http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN16O24X
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Mar 17, 2017 22:17
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I guess Netanyahu's going to mire Israel more deeply in Syria, because why not at this point?
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Mar 18, 2017 01:56
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