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Timeless Appeal posted:The Experiment kids gave me really big Peter Pan/Lost Boy parallels. Even some of the casting and characterization felt very Hook-ish with Logan taking on the role of the grown up Peter Pan. Hell, it's not really hard to see Pierce as Captain Hook. Eh. Was Hook a fan of Peter Pan?
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Mar 13, 2017 16:29
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Honest Thief posted:I'm saying for all the talk of transcending the super hero genre it just plays right into the western genre instead, and that's disappointing. The trailers didn't exactly sell it as Wolverine: El Topo. It's tough to transcend every genre.
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Mar 13, 2017 16:37
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Erdricks posted:I don't get the madmax / dystopian future analogies. I mean, they made it quite clear that they are able to farm and harvest food well enough to lace the food supply for an entire country with anti mutant gmos. No I didn't think about brown people when I saw a giant fuckoff wall. Or how they were ripping clonebabies out of Mexican women. Or bother to draw the comparison between brown people and the way that Mutants are treated during the pastoral "Our way of life is dying out" with the farmers. Honest Thief posted:I'm saying for all the talk of transcending the super hero genre it just plays right into the western genre instead, and that's disappointing. quote:And yes, the ending was weak, especially for Wolverine's character; for all the franchise's history being about the character's suicidal tendencies making the "send-off" the hero's death seemed the lamest way to go. FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 16:37
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Part of what makes Mad Max interesting is the question of "if you slept through the end of the world, what would be left when you wake up?" And that's the world Logan and Xavier have found themselves in. For the mutants, the world is over- their apocalypse wasn't some big event like the sentinels (or Apocalypse, I guess) but instead just fizzling out. It's been 150 years of bad road for Logan and he's tired, he's been fighting for ages and doesn't know how not to. Everything in his past is pain, and no matter how hard he tries he can't escape it.
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Mar 13, 2017 16:57
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MrJacobs posted:I really liked this movie but something really, really bothered me: X-24 should have been Sabretooth since he is just a psychopathic killing machine like X-24 but is Logan's official family and a representation of what he was trying to leave behind. He has the same powers, skills, and rage that plagues Logan and now Laura, while functionally being the same character as X-24. Having the final battle be between him and Sabertooth would have been a much better end to the arc of both characters since their origin in X-Men Origins. Just have Sabertooth fall in line with the bad guys and they give him drugs to keep him from losing his powers like Logan and Xavier (since apparently the additives to processed food and water caused them to have diminished powers) and he'll follow Dr.Rice while still going on a rampage on the GMO farmers against orders. It would have worked pretty much exactly the same way, but with a better end for both characters I don't get the idea that shoehorning Sabretooth in here would've somehow made for a better or more compelling movie. As people have said repeatedly, this film is about Logan grappling with how the world perceives him (hero or outcast or weapon or mythological figure), his own self-hatred, and the corrosive nature of the lifestyle that he chose/was chosen for him. Sabretooth is cool and I wouldn't mind seeing Liev Schriber take another crack at it, but Sabretooth as a concept is a dark parallel of Logan, the version of him that embraces all his worst aspects, but he's still a separate entity, something for Logan to fight against without having to interrogate his own choices or beliefs. Like Timeless Appeal said, LOGAN is about how much he hates himself and wants to leave the worst parts of himself behind so that they can't do any more harm. He's then motivated to shepherd his literal child to safety so that she can have a chance at avoiding becoming the same person while on the run from a soulless, mindless, mass production model version of himself that exists only to kill.. I don't think you can hone the narrative in any more than that, and adding another mutant to the mix would've just diluted the story.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:03
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Rap Record Hoarder posted:I don't get the idea that shoehorning Sabretooth in here would've somehow made for a better or more compelling movie. As people have said repeatedly, this film is about Logan grappling with how the world perceives him (hero or outcast or weapon or mythological figure), his own self-hatred, and the corrosive nature of the lifestyle that he chose/was chosen for him. Sabretooth is cool and I wouldn't mind seeing Liev Schriber take another crack at it, but Sabretooth as a concept is a dark parallel of Logan, the version of him that embraces all his worst aspects, but he's still a separate entity, something for Logan to fight against without having to interrogate his own choices or beliefs. Sounds like they actually considered it: http://www.slashfilm.com/logan-sabretooth-cameo/ quote:There was a moment when we were thinking about, as I recall, Jim [Mangold] had an idea where when they were on the run, and they go to the gambling town, there may have been at that point they were going to see [Sabertooth] for help. He was going to be there for help. Now that you mention it! I wouldn’t swear to it, but we thought that would have been an interesting thing to do. And then for whatever reason we didn’t do it. I would've figured he was considered for the X-24 clone body at the end instead of Wolverine but I agree I don't think it would've added/changed the message much either way.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:09
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MrJacobs posted:I really liked this movie but something really, really bothered me: X-24 should have been Sabretooth since he is just a psychopathic killing machine like X-24 but is Logan's official family and a representation of what he was trying to leave behind. He has the same powers, skills, and rage that plagues Logan and now Laura, while functionally being the same character as X-24. Having the final battle be between him and Sabertooth would have been a much better end to the arc of both characters since their origin in X-Men Origins. Just have Sabertooth fall in line with the bad guys and they give him drugs to keep him from losing his powers like Logan and Xavier (since apparently the additives to processed food and water caused them to have diminished powers) and he'll follow Dr.Rice while still going on a rampage on the GMO farmers against orders. It would have worked pretty much exactly the same way, but with a better end for both characters Yeah, agreed. It was a great movie that took huge risks that paid off (R rating, Xavier/Logan dying, no Magneto) but X24 was the weakest plot point. The villains went from needing genetic material to create kids that aged normally, to being able to create a full grown Logan clone? It would have been better if it had been Daken, Sabretooth, or perhaps a mash-up of mutant powers recovered from the Xavier disaster. A bad guy shooting eye beams and teleporting would have been neat. Another tiny quibble: the series had been treating adamantium as an ultra-rare resource, but X23 and X24 had it infused without fanfare. Would have been better for X24 to have bone claws, especially if he represents rage.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:11
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FilthyImp posted:Well white people with disposable income have it pretty good! Must mean the world is pretty cool! Besides the mutant clone babies, all of this is true today. It's not using a post apocalyptic setting to create a contrast. It's quite literally the setting from today with a date tweak.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:16
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Hyrax Attack! posted:Yeah, agreed. It was a great movie that took huge risks that paid off (R rating, Xavier/Logan dying, no Magneto) but X24 was the weakest plot point. The villains went from needing genetic material to create kids that aged normally, to being able to create a full grown Logan clone? They did that once, it did not work too well. http://imgur.com/86rZ2TE
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Mar 13, 2017 17:16
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Hyrax Attack! posted:Yeah, agreed. I get the issue here but then it would take away Laura using the bullet from Logan's past to finally put his rage to rest. The bullet itself is a silly plot device, which I get, but I really like the meaning.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:28
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Hyrax Attack! posted:Yeah, agreed. Another tiny quibble: the series had been treating adamantium as an ultra-rare resource, but X23 and X24 had it infused without fanfare. Would have been better for X24 to have bone claws, especially if he represents rage. Yeah, and if Laura had adamantium in her bones how does that work if she is still growing? Logan was a full grown man when he got his bones coated. That seems like it would cause a lot of problems unless she is supposed to be a little girl forever since I doubt the hardest fake metal ever grows with her skeleton.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:36
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MrJacobs posted:Yeah, and if Laura had adamantium in her bones how does that work if she is still growing? Logan was a full grown man when he got his bones coated. That seems like it would cause a lot of problems unless she is supposed to be a little girl forever since I doubt the hardest fake metal ever grows with her skeleton. Apparently it's just her claws that are covered.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:39
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FilthyImp posted:Reframing this as a Western, in light of the published character's hard-on for Samurai-esque honor, gives it a nice layer you're ignoring. My issue with death isn't with X-24, it's on the nose but subtlety can be overrated, but it felt forced especially having Laura do the kill shot. Logan barely made an effort to change and even reverted to being his old rage self when using the medicine; and I'm not ignoring how this can be framed in a tragic light, it simply felt throwaway like that line about gender with Laura. Same with Laura doing the kill, it lacked impact for me because if anyone ever played a paternal role in her life it was Xavier, same as when she recites Shane's line at the end. Honest Thief fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 17:40
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As Nero Danced posted:They did that once, it did not work too well. http://imgur.com/86rZ2TE Haha, good point. That's the only Xmen movie I haven't seen, just skimmed the plot summary.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:53
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Honest Thief posted:
The whole point of the movie is that Logan can't stop being his old self, no matter how he tries. He says in the comics that he's the best at what he does and what he does isn't very nice, but the reality is that he is what he does. What he wants is for Laura not to be him.
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Mar 13, 2017 18:06
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Jedit posted:The whole point of the movie is that Logan can't stop being his old self, no matter how he tries. He says in the comics that he's the best at what he does and what he does isn't very nice, but the reality is that he is what he does. What he wants is for Laura not to be him. edit:the whole thing would play better if Wolverine had spent time avoiding conflict instead of just being physically restrained. Honest Thief fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 18:29
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Jedit said the whole point of the movie is that Logan can't stop being his old self, and you said 'yeah, but he never actually stopped being his old self'?quote:
quote:
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Mar 13, 2017 18:53
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Skizzzer posted:Jedit said the whole point of the movie is that Logan can't stop being his old self, and you said 'yeah, but he never actually stopped being his old self'? Honest Thief fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 18:57
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Electromax posted:Sounds like they actually considered it: See, I love the idea of a drifter Sabretooth as unlikely ally but that complicates (and IMO dilutes) the rest of the movie. Juxtaposing him and Logan as the last of the old guard of mutants who have to shuffle off the stage in order for the kids to have a chance at a different, and hopefully better, future would be wonderful to explore. It would be easy enough to introduce him, probably hanging around the casino in OKC, but then his presence interferes with the more compelling paternal dynamics between Xavier/Logan and Logan/Laura. Also where do you get rid of him? If he gets killed off by X-24 that would make for a super poetic moment tying the narrative of all 3 Wolverine movies together, as the soulless embodiment of Logan's rage does him in, proving correct Sabretooth's assertion that Logan was only ever torturing himself by pretending to be better and would only ever surpass Sabretooth by giving in to his bestial, amoral fury. If it's at the farmhouse then it undermines the appearance of X-24 and Xavier's death. If it's when they arrive at Eden or during the final fight then it weakens the dynamic of Logan and Laura vs X-24 and Transigen. I think they could pull it off, but I don't think it would be worth the loss of the emotional points the film already has. Either way it's all speculation and fan fiction at this point, but I can see the appeal from that angle.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:02
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Honest Thief posted:Poor phrasing on my part, Logan doesn't try to avoid any killing, he just hurts like hell when doing. That's less about trying to change himself and not being able to, than just not being able to do as well as before. His inner conflict seems to be more about age performance than identity, even with the movie trying to make it about the latter. I didn't quite view the movie pushing that point of view, rather, Logan's struggle was more about reconciling what he feels is a life wasted. Logan is obviously contemplating suicide. I feel like there's an obvious juxtaposition between the X-men previous and what they are now, which is dead, forgotten, and not even mentioned by name. It's not even a life wasted - Logan feels like his life is poo poo and that he's probably caused more harm than good. He's better off dead than alive, and it's only the professor who is keeping Logan alive when we are first introduced to Logan. After the prof dies, it's Laura who keeps Logan alive, and Laura the reason Logan keeps fighting. We know Logan's identity; he knows it; and the Reavers know it too. He's a killer, and that doesn't change.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:15
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Personally I don't like Sabertooth being in this movie because it makes it a whole lot less self-contained. I'm of the mind that you could show this movie to someone who's never heard of the X-men and it'd still be emotionally effective. When you start putting in too many other characters with convoluted backstories you need to explain it overburdens the thing. Character bloat is one thing that makes movies 'comic book movies' in the denigrating sense, especially with the ensemble cast of most X-men films. Sabertooth's thematic parallels would only really make sense with knowledge of stuff outside of the movie, but a cloned blank slate rage-machine works perfectly in a vacuum.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:52
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NmareBfly posted:Personally I don't like Sabertooth being in this movie because it makes it a whole lot less self-contained. And, man, if you were to make the movie less self-contained, why would you start by referencing X-Men Origins: Wolverine?
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Mar 13, 2017 19:54
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Honest Thief posted:Poor phrasing on my part, Logan doesn't try to avoid any killing. Yes, he does.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:58
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Logan tried to avoid the fight at the very beginning of the movie. For multiple reasons.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:38
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Erdricks posted:I don't get the madmax / dystopian future analogies. I mean, they made it quite clear that they are able to farm and harvest food well enough to lace the food supply for an entire country with anti mutant gmos. Check your fuckin' prive...Oh, somebody covered this. MacheteZombie posted:Logan tried to avoid the fight at the very beginning of the movie. For multiple reasons. I think he actually still tries to talk them out of it after two or three hits. It's only after they start beating him while he's down.
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Mar 13, 2017 22:01
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While I had some issues with the story, I liked it overall. What I didn't like was the anti-gmo message which just left me scratching my head: How would they ever manage to create anti-mutant food if they barely know how a couple mutants work, let alone how would they be able to produce that same formula and introduce it to every single food producer in the world without massive side-effects? Even if like, Kraft or Coca Cola adopted their formulas those companies distribute vastly different versions of their foods for different countries based on local laws, tastes and ingredients available. Even with the farm scenes and allusions towards a modern world leaving the old behind it felt shoe-horned in and like the writer just wanted to rant on about his all-organic diet. I know I am complaining about superhero science but with how mostly grounded the movie was it just struck me as a weird route to take.
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Mar 13, 2017 22:58
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evilmiera posted:While I had some issues with the story, I liked it overall. What I didn't like was the anti-gmo message which just left me scratching my head: How would they ever manage to create anti-mutant food if they barely know how a couple mutants work, let alone how would they be able to produce that same formula and introduce it to every single food producer in the world without massive side-effects? Even if like, Kraft or Coca Cola adopted their formulas those companies distribute vastly different versions of their foods for different countries based on local laws, tastes and ingredients available. Even with the farm scenes and allusions towards a modern world leaving the old behind it felt shoe-horned in and like the writer just wanted to rant on about his all-organic diet. I know I am complaining about superhero science but with how mostly grounded the movie was it just struck me as a weird route to take. I'm pretty sure they just adapted the anti-mutant syrum from X3. That said, I didn't take it so much as anti-GMO as I thought it was anti-HFCS. That poo poo is in everything. That might be a personal bias though. Can we stop putting spoilers yet?
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Mar 14, 2017 00:13
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Honest Thief posted:edit: and yeah I was being way too vague (more lazy actually) before I'm still waiting for you to list a few movies which don't fail to the things which you criticized this one for. I mean literally, just pick THREE movies where they didn't play into the tropes which upset you - while also occasionally reversing them.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:34
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One of the best things about the movie was how personal and isolated the whole thing was for Logan, and Sabretooth or anyone else popping up to help and reminisce about old times would have really hurt that aspect of the movie.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:44
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Saw this tonight and I just want to say that it's my favourite superhero movie since Chronicle. It was really goddamn brutal for a film rated 15 (UK) and a lot better written than anything else in the MCU/X-Men franchises. The other Wolverine movies went "this guy is kinda hosed up so he does bad things to stop the even worse bad guys" and this one went "this guy is really hosed up but he's dealing with an impossible situation where his surrogate father is dying of Alzheimer's and he's just found out he's a father to an orphaned girl and he really, really has to try not to do bad things for the sake of both of them but he ultimately has to because the bad guys are way worse". Obviously I am a terrible film critic, since this is about as much as I am capable of summarising on the subject. I saw some chat about subtitles, though, and I have to add that I really love films that don't use subtitles when there's a foreign language that the audience surrogate (in this case, Logan) isn't supposed to understand. I understand a tiny amount of Spanish, but the acting was good enough that I knew exactly what was being said without knowing the words. I've ranted about this before and I'll rant about it again now: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me is one of my favourite films, and there's a scene in an incredibly loud nightclub where you can barely hear the dialogue. When I first watched the film, I was straining to hear what people were saying but I got the gist based on what was happening on screen. The blu ray, while gorgeous, has hardcoded subtitles for the entire scene. My eyes get distracted when those bright white words appear at the bottom of the picture. It was so much better being an observer in that club than it was being an omniscient being, and in Logan I really appreciated being able to get the feeling without knowing exactly what was being said. 'Showing, not telling' is a golden rule in story writing and I think it applies to dialogue in film. If there was anything in Logan I would change it would be that there are too many 'say something in Spanish, then repeat in English' moments that add nothing because I, someone that cannot speak Spanish, already understood what was going on.
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Mar 14, 2017 02:04
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Let's think about what the film would have been if Sabertooth was the villain. If Sabertooth is in the story as Logan's brother, then it steers towards being a fight between flesh and blood, and the rest of the movie has to revolve around that conflict. You can make the rest of the movie about a fight between Logan's biological family and his adoptive family, but if you go that route you probably have to make Laura unrelated to Logan. Logan would take sides with his adoptive father (Xavier) and adoptive daughter against his biological family. You'd have to have massive rewrites, replacing the scenes that deal with Wolverine's sense of mortality and instead put in scenes built around familial conflict. The movie would end with Logan choosing his adoptive family over his biological family. But that is an entirely different movie from what we got. The film is not about Logan being pulled between two families, it is about Logan battling with himself, with all the negative aspects of his own personality, and with his own mortality. Thematically it fits in better that he is fighting his inner demons, represented by a clone of himself. Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 02:35
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Steve Yun posted:Let's think about what the film would have been if Sabertooth was the villain. If Sabertooth is in the story as Logan's brother, then it steers towards being a fight between flesh and blood, and the rest of the movie has to revolve around that conflict. You can make the rest of the movie about a fight between Logan's biological family and his adoptive family, but if you go that route you probably have to make Laura unrelated to Logan. Logan would take sides with his adoptive father (Xavier) and adoptive daughter against his biological family. The movie would end with Logan choosing his adoptive family over his biological family. Honestly, that sounds like a pretty great movie. I just wouldn't want it to have overwritten this one and I'm not sorry we got this one instead.
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Mar 14, 2017 02:59
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Concerning the ending. Maybe i'm looking too much into it. I thought about the bullet a bit more. That bullet was his choice exit. He always thought about it, but he didn't because even though he was self-destructing himself through booze, and actually self-destructing due to the rejection, he felt that living was still worth it. In the end, that bullet was spent, and he was robbed of his choice of an easy out. At the same time, the bullet saved him, and in his final moments he found clarity and absolution, of going down, being a hero, helping to save those kids. For one second of his miserable forced existence, the whores and the war, the agonizing rage and pain, the endless list of enemies he had, he addressed Laura as his daughter. After hearing the "daddy" I felt that he finally knew the feeling of having a family, even though he was part of one for decades. What i'm saying is, the movie was really great. Fargin Icehole fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 03:04
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Steve Yun posted:Let's think about what the film would have been if Sabertooth was the villain. I think it's important to note that X-24's haircut bears a fitting resemblance to Liev Schreiber's portrayal of Sabretooth in X-Men Origins There was enough there visually, for me anyway, to make me think of the kind of image of Wolverine as a weapon and as all the things people would associate him with as this weapon or particular symbol. It didn't seem like a coincidence.
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Mar 14, 2017 03:58
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McSpanky posted:Honestly, that sounds like a pretty great movie. I just wouldn't want it to have overwritten this one and I'm not sorry we got this one instead. Yeah and it's kind of a shame they never really exploited what could've been a great emotional struggle between Wolverine and Sabertooth in these films. Sabertooth in X1 isn't even Wolverine's brother, and in X-Men Origins he ends up not having to make any difficult decisions because a worse bad guy comes along and he has to team up with Sabertooth to beat him. If you want a good adoptive family vs biological family superhero movie, Superman: The Movie is it. The climax of the film isn't about beating Lex Luthor; it's the moment when he decides which of his fathers to listen to. Corrosion posted:I think it's important to note that X-24's haircut bears a fitting resemblance to Liev Schreiber's portrayal of Sabretooth in X-Men Origins
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Mar 14, 2017 04:03
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Corrosion posted:I think it's important to note that X-24's haircut bears a fitting resemblance to Liev Schreiber's portrayal of Sabretooth in X-Men Origins I think the reference is sufficient, without the actual character being in the movie. That said, I always thought that if they made a direct sequel to Origins that it would turn out that Sabretooth and Logan weren't really brothers. Their respective fathers looked enough like them that it could be a coincidence of two mutants being born in close proximity, even if Sabretooth's dad was plowing Wolverine's mom.
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Mar 14, 2017 04:10
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It's an echo of the character, to be certain. It's evocative while allowing for the use of a different character entirely.
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Mar 14, 2017 04:21
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Steve Yun posted:Yeah and it's kind of a shame they never really exploited what could've been a great emotional struggle between Wolverine and Sabertooth in these films. Sabertooth in X1 isn't even Wolverine's brother, and in X-Men Origins he ends up not having to make any difficult decisions because a worse bad guy comes along and he has to team up with Sabertooth to beat him.
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Mar 14, 2017 06:07
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Logan: a good, christian movie (tilted 90 degrees at the end)
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Mar 14, 2017 06:40
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I love that they let Stephen Merchant keep his own accent for the part. In the UK the Bristolian accent carries heavy "country bumpkin" connotations so you very rarely hear it in films set outside the UK.
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Mar 14, 2017 10:33
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