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NewMars posted:Good news! They have legions of slaves working day in day out, while they reap the profits and sell off all the surplus to genocidal murderers. Not to mention consisting of insular clans utterly removed from the pain their society inflicts and sacrificing the blood of their workers to their graven idols of gold. The chaos dwarves as capitalists interpretation is already canon! And originally, they also created Black Orcs as an Uruk-hai analogue.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:24
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see, i rather enjoy those kinds of "evil version" factions, since its actually playing upon both the dualistic nature of character flaws (dilute standard dwarfs hidebound love of tradition, twist their greedy nature, and add a dash of modern capitalist sociopathy and silly hats, you get chaos dwarves), and an expansion on the existing themes and archetypes the original faction represented, instead of just being CORRUPT BLACK SPIKE MAN who does Bad because they are Evil. plus they expand on the whole sense of an interconnected world with various understandable ideologies that nevertheless play off each other in rational ways, and demands you think about how they work instead of insisting everything being arbitrary and stupid is okay because ~its fantasy~ im super boring and i read about the not fighting parts of history, for fun. im sorry. e: come to think of it, that really does sum up my issue with a lot of fantasy works succinctly. i like poo poo that invites you to think and laugh, as opposed to not think and never laugh. Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 19:25
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fnordcircle posted:40k's fluff went from a pretty decent 'maybe the regressive, theocratic fascist xenophobe goodguys aren't actually the good guys *wink wink*' story that didn't take itself too seriously to 'check out these badass regressive, theocratic fascist xenophobe goodguys!' I think it's gotten worse over time as there's almost no-one else in WH40k from whose perspective you can write from. Everyone outside the Imperium is either too alien to understand or has been squatted. Or are boring Tau. So all the fluff comes from any one of fifty different pro-Imperium factions, skewing the universe to be all about how great the Imperium is. Compared to fantasy where most factions have something going for them. They have some goal, some philosophy, some perspective which allows a writer to get on their side and explain why they're not really the bad guy. You can play Dark Elves and complain that the slave economy is all the High Elves fault for forcing you out to this wasteland and is actually super practical and probably good for the slaves too! Or be Industrial Revolution Chaos Dwarves. Or Canonically Smartest Faction Lizardmen. Or Randian Skaven pulling themselves up by their bootstraps (and warpstone) to be the only intelligent society on the planet than weren't put there by some dumb Great Old One a bajillion years ago and are still kicking rear end. They have their own stories that a GW writer can get to grips with and promote. Compare that to the Eldar. "They're really alien, guys. Also fast.".
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Mar 13, 2017 19:29
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Tiler Kiwi posted:see, i rather enjoy those kinds of "evil version" factions, since its actually playing upon both the dualistic nature of character flaws (dilute standard dwarfs hidebound love of tradition, twist their greedy nature, and add a dash of modern capitalist sociopathy and silly hats, you get chaos dwarves), and an expansion on the existing themes and archetypes the original faction represented, instead of just being CORRUPT BLACK SPIKE MAN who does Bad because they are Evil. plus they expand on the whole sense of an interconnected world with various understandable ideologies that nevertheless play off each other in rational ways, and demands you think about how they work instead of insisting everything being arbitrary and stupid is okay because ~its fantasy~ At the same time, if you read the background, the Norscans are basically victims of Chaos. They're the equivalent of people who grow up somewhere that's ruled by violent gangs and warlords and if you want to be anyone, you join up. And they're that way because they were driven off from the south and exiled up in the lovely, infertile north next to the hellportal. The Norse in Fantasy aren't all Chaos worshippers and a fair number resist it, or incorporate it as part of their overall pantheon but don't go all spikey armor until some dipshit from further north kills anyone who won't convert fully and demands they join his massive 'let's go get hosed up by the Empire because we don't learn' party.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:31
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Funky Valentine posted:Orks are of course mid-to-late 21st century. And Slann are late 20th early 21st century. 
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Mar 13, 2017 19:33
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Night10194 posted:The Norse in Fantasy aren't all Chaos worshippers and a fair number resist it, or incorporate it as part of their overall pantheon but don't go all spikey armor until some dipshit from further north kills anyone who won't convert fully and demands they join his massive 'let's go get hosed up by the Empire because we don't learn' party. Empire hands out so many cans of whoop rear end to so many people they are only bottle necked by their ability to generate said cans of whoop rear end.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:36
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Tiler Kiwi posted:i maintain that magic wizard kills are not properly tracked: i swear ive seen models die but no kills be awarded This is definitely the case. It works on some spells - vortex ones, projectile spells like fireball or shem's burning gaze, wind spells - and not on others, notably the bombardment and direct damage spells. I had a wizard get 0 kills after using a direct damage spell on one unit repeatedly through a battle, killing upwards of 80 men (nothing else hit the unit, just the direct damage spells); likewise the Fay Enchantress' damage aura doesn't have kills tracked. I think this contributes to the feeling that spells like Searing Doom are worthless; they do pretty significant damage, you can see it on the health bars, and even get kills, but the kills don't get attributed to the wizard.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:36
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yeah the Norse are cool, except in this game, where they all must die
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Mar 13, 2017 19:37
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All the chaos worshiping factions in the game besides the chaos warriors proper have at least some reason besides gently caress the world to worship chaos. Even beastmen don't want the world to end so much as they want to make it so that civilization doesn't exist anymore. With the exception of the centigors, who are hilariously cursed to be so clumsy as to not even be able to live in holes in the ground, instead having to settle for ditches, which drives them up the wall, being even worse off than regular beastmen.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:40
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I would also add that, actually, let me just post it straight from the book.  Archeon is still the dumbest and most boring antagonist.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:46
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they're a fun team to use in blood bowl, too
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Mar 13, 2017 19:49
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Dandywalken posted:And originally, they also created Black Orcs as an Uruk-hai analogue. The story of the Black Orcs is still one of my favorite pieces of Warhammer lore: Chaos Dwarfs think, hey, maybe we can genetically engineer these green violent idiots into strong, smart slaves that will act as cannon fodder and slave labor for our dark industrial empire. But it turns out that even though you can twist their love of battle into a grimdark desire to kill everything, you can never kill the Orc's love for freedom to fight and kill everything on their terms 
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Mar 13, 2017 20:05
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Everyone digging at the Bretonnia peasants being poor thing keeps talking about that loving pig and ignoring the two loving gold coins. £1 in 1751 is approximately worth £204 in today's money. If you're sitting there thinking "that difference isn't that much" skilled journeyman like a blacksmith or whatever would earn 18 shillings a week, which is nearly £1. So they earned about £3.50 a month, or the equivalent of £590 a month in today's money. This is someone with an expensive skill by the way, not some loser farmer pulling turnips out of the ground. So if you scale that back even further can you not see how, possibly, giving a peasant two fat gold coins is probably a poo poo ton of money? Honestly I reckon that peasant was super excited until he was like murdered for the money or bought so much alcohol he died drinking it.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:22
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Bretonnian peasants are also absolutely stupid and ignorant. If they had a single gold coin and the Lady of the Lake offered to give a peasant anything it asked for, the peasant would ask for a second gold coin.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:26
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Kitchner posted:Everyone digging at the Bretonnia peasants being poor thing keeps talking about that loving pig and ignoring the two loving gold coins. 400 gold recruits an unit of 90 swordsmen, though.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:29
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ZearothK posted:I would also add that, actually, let me just post it straight from the book. So the Norscans are gnostics/Manicheans who seek gnosis through murdering? That makes me like them so much more. 
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Mar 13, 2017 20:36
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Kitchner posted:Everyone digging at the Bretonnia peasants being poor thing keeps talking about that loving pig and ignoring the two loving gold coins. Uh yeah, two gold coins is a non-trivial amount of money but not a life changing one even for a peasant. And the whole point of the story is to emphasise the grimderp poverty of the peasants, they didn't add the detail about the pig for nothing! jokes posted:Bretonnian peasants are also absolutely stupid and ignorant. If they had a single gold coin and the Lady of the Lake offered to give a peasant anything it asked for, the peasant would ask for a second gold coin. Yes this is also really dumb and boring writing though?
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Mar 13, 2017 20:44
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Mukip (Carcassone) vs Sammvt (Von Carstein) Round 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/l4m20ai0oxgzgeo/mukip%20vs%20sammvt%201.replay?dl=0 The blood knights get overwhelmed by the much more numerous Bretonnian cav and peasant bows as the undead infantry is flanked and put down by the more numerous Bretonnians. Mukip (Chaos) vs Sammvt (Beastmen) Round 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/nwfarpf6el6for1/mukip%20vs%20sammvt%202.replay?dl=0 Not much to see in this round. The fight is over almost as soon as it starts as the beastmen infantry decide not to kill their chaos brethren and run instead. Well played to Mukip and good luck to whoever has to go up against you in the semifinals, they'll need it. The bracket: http://challonge.com/GoonFight5 Trujillo fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 20:45
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jokes posted:Bretonnian peasants are also absolutely stupid and ignorant. If they had a single gold coin and the Lady of the Lake offered to give a peasant anything it asked for, the peasant would ask for a second gold coin. The paraphrased bits of someone trying to explain how Windmills work or how big the storehouses are is pretty funny. I'm imagining a conversation between a pleasant trying to reassure some noble that the recent heat wave won't affect that summers crops-  "It's ok my Lord, I'm certain the windmills spinning will keep the turnips from wilting."  "That's not how Windmills work!"
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Mar 13, 2017 21:03
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Aren't Bretonnian peasants also stereotypically "sub-human" as the nobility makes them out to be? Like they are imbecilic, dim-witted, and physically malformed.
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Mar 13, 2017 21:30
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jokes posted:Bretonnian peasants are also absolutely stupid and ignorant. If they had a single gold coin and the Lady of the Lake offered to give a peasant anything it asked for, the peasant would ask for a second gold coin. And they still build trebuchets without any education in physics, not even basic trigonometry. Bretonnia is a land of contrasts.
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Mar 13, 2017 21:52
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Well, all the craftsmen, engineers and merchants are peasants too. A peasant is anybody not of noble birth (from both parents back several generations), which is basically everybody who does any work around there what with "work" being a tawdry activity for low borns.
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Mar 13, 2017 22:05
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In some of the older editions, the Bretonnian commoners were merrily building late Age of Sail galleons and general economic development while their nobles concerned themselves with just how many goblins they could skewer on one lance.
wiegieman fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 22:05
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Fangz posted:400 gold recruits an unit of 90 swordsmen, though. If it's anything like in real life, I'm pretty sure at least some of it is for recruitment bonuses that all disappear into alcohol somehow.
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Mar 13, 2017 22:06
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wiegieman posted:In some of the older editions, the Bretonnian commoners were merilly building late Age of Sail galleons and general economic development while their nobles concerned themselves with just how many goblins they could skewer on one lance. E: In fact I think they actually use them for naval engagements. Mordja fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 22:08
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I'm sure these fantasy dudes have the same value for a gold coin as this one random example from an arbitrary time and location in real history.
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Mar 13, 2017 22:19
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Mordja posted:Isn't Bretonnia technically advanced enough to have cannons and gunpowder weapons; they just don't use them because such firearms are base and unchivalrous? The bretonnian navy is composed of late Age of Sail ships, including galleons bristling with cannons. This is because the navy is funded by the burgeoning middle class in order to protect trade. Bordeleaux, for example, is the trade and economic capital of Bretonnia.
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Mar 13, 2017 22:55
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Mordja posted:Isn't Bretonnia technically advanced enough to have cannons and gunpowder weapons; they just don't use them because such firearms are base and unchivalrous? Pretty much exactly, this, yeah. They use cannons on ships mainly because they only have so many and the Brets like having the strongest navy in the world so any new cannons they build/buy get co-opted into that, which suits the Knights just fine. They don't hand out rifles to peasants mainly because rifles are expensive and more difficult to work/maintain than a longbow, and Knights have no interest because of the aforementioned Chivalry. In the real world, you might think they limited firearms deployment in order to keep peasants from being able to kill Knights, but Bret nobility is so convinced of their peasant's loyalty (and they're usually correct in this conviction) that the thought never occurred to them.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:00
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theDOWmustflow posted:Aren't Bretonnian peasants also stereotypically "sub-human" as the nobility makes them out to be? Like they are imbecilic, dim-witted, and physically malformed. Depends on which version you use. The issue with talking about Bretonnia is they've been rewritten more then almost any other WHFB race, and thus can be whatever people say they are. They also stopped being supported after a certain point, so they kind of stagnated. They also suffered for being the race GW focused on first for their "grimdarking" of WHFB before the backlash caused them to stop ( and basically killed Bretonnia as a faction alongside it. ) Are the Knights superhuman beings that emanate virtue that work alongside an enlightened middle class and a supported/protected peasantry? Sure in some editions. Are the Knights a mix of superhuman beings of virtue that manage to complete their Grail Quests, but also many petty nobles that ignore the issues of the peasantry/abuse their power and authority to indulge basic vices? Sure, in this other edition. Is the "virtue"/superhuman aspect an exaggeration from backwards peasants, and all the Knights are actually just petty nobles, ruling over a backwards malformed people? Here's the edition that supports that. The last rewrite they ever got had the Knights powers be an exaggeration from peasants that were so malformed/mutated they couldn't be classified as human anymore. The Knights themselves were petty nobles that abused their power and treated the people like cattle. What little magic they actually had wasn't virtue based, but random bits of magic bits and bobs the Lady of the Lake gave them. But most Bretonnia fans ignore this rewrite because it was so out of place for both the setting/race, and also because it was an attempt by GW to grimdark up the faction/setting. The "likely" Bretonnia most people agree to is that the Knights are a mix of virtue based heroes that could/do complete their grail quests and protect their people, with some petty nobles that abuse their power/station and have lovely provinces because of it. Their is a strong middle class of craftsmen/merchants that supplements the Bretonnian economy and live pretty well off. There are peasants who either live pretty well off ( if they live in a province of an actual chivalrous Knight ), or live in kind of a lovely situation because their Knight doesn't fight off the Orcs/Skaven/Undead.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:16
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Rookersh posted:The last rewrite they ever got had the Knights powers be an exaggeration from peasants that were so malformed/mutated they couldn't be classified as human anymore. The Knights themselves were petty nobles that abused their power and treated the people like cattle. What little magic they actually had wasn't virtue based, but random bits of magic bits and bobs the Lady of the Lake gave them. But most Bretonnia fans ignore this rewrite because it was so out of place for both the setting/race, and also because it was an attempt by GW to grimdark up the faction/setting. poo poo, I forgot about this dumb idea. This was like 6th Ed right?
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Mar 13, 2017 23:39
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The WHFB army books fiction are often written as propaganda from the faction's perspective to make them seem awesome, so in the Bretonnia book you get told that peasants are all useless and need to be charitably looked after by their chivalrous overlords.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:44
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wiegieman posted:In some of the older editions, the Bretonnian commoners were merrily building late Age of Sail galleons and general economic development while their nobles concerned themselves with just how many goblins they could skewer on one lance. Look, Mr. Saltine, I don't tell you how to... threaten your blonde kid, so why don't you go back over there to your Sit n' Spin and let me do my job? This is just about how I imagine a conversation between a Brettonian peasant building a goddamn ship and a Brettonian noble going.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:54
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I just use the WHFRP one as my default reference. It's pretty awesome.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:00
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Dandywalken posted:I just use the WHFRP one as my default reference. It's pretty awesome. The correct decision.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:18
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Let's just be upfront: bretonnian peasants are ugly and weak and dumb and nobles are pretty and stronk and smart.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:22
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Rookersh posted:Depends on which version you use. Well, appropriately for a feudal faction, how virtuous knights are or how inbred peasants are can be said to be entirely dependent upon whose demesne it is. Psycho Landlord posted:poo poo, I forgot about this dumb idea. This was like 6th Ed right? IIRC 6th was the 'best' treatment that the Bretonnian Problem received and is largely what you see in the WFRP2 book and what cannon they seem to draw on for Total War. It sounds more like this is End Times stuff, because the whole of that was basically stripping any mystique or legitimacy from Bretonnia as a faction before they all (literally) rode off into the sunset to their deaths. Someone there really hated Bretonnia. I think a lot of it comes out of people forgetting that in the days prior to 5th Edition, Bretonnia was literally Pre-Revolution France, with nobles being absolute hedonists in powdered wigs getting carried around in palanquins and poo poo, and a lot of the "peasants are sub-human" stuff comes from this very different, not-at-all Arthurian Bretonnia. I admit that I'm not a complete authority on the fictive background of these particular tiny plastic mans, though. edit for correct opinions: Night10194 posted:
Syrnn fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 00:37
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jokes posted:Let's just be upfront: bretonnian peasants are ugly and weak and dumb and nobles are pretty and stronk and smart. They also look and smell like poo.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:41
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Yeah, if you want to talk about End Times Bretonnia, you need to look no further then the fact the "honorbound/oathkeeping virtue Knights" faction broke their oath to the Empire that Bretonnia would come to their aid at the end of the world. Or how about a character that was the "virtue of bravery" fleeing the field and letting his men get slaughtered to cover his retreat. Someone at GW REALLY hates Bretonnia.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:50
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Well, it is a British company staffed by the writers of Warhammer "Catholic Space Nazis Are Unironically The Height Of Cool" 40,000 writing about the French. 
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Mar 14, 2017 00:52
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Bretonnian peasant invents one weird apparatus, nobles hate him!
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Mar 14, 2017 01:18
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