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Rinkles posted:No they aren't. I see what he's saying, but I think perhaps he means just Kaladesh *cards* because the only mechanic involved in the Tier 1 decks specifically are Vehicles, and out of those Heart of Kiran is the only one that's blatantly unfair.
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Mar 13, 2017 18:25
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Good choice not to ban anything right now, even if Guardian has to go eventually. Sure it shakes up the meta but we don't necessarily end up with anything better, and what are people going to do when they can't play their deck anymore, and the new set doesn't release yet? The last series of bans were too aggressive anyway and Smugglers Copter should have been the only card removed, but too late to fix that now. Bannings are also insanely disruptive to the market. On MTGO Gideon, Saheeli, and Heart of Kiran all dropped about 50 percent in value, only to instantly rebound after the announcement. An environment where every ban announcement has people trying to dump their mythics and not be caught with the hot potato is terrible. Bannings to shake up older formats are fine, but standard bannings are just awful when the cards have a built in expiration date. The promise of having your Gideons or Heart of Kiran for 2 years or however long it is factors heavily into people buying into the format that is meant to be the most accessible.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:04
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BJPaskoff posted:That's a good point. Standard is going to potentially get worse before it gets better. The FFL has already proven to be a poor testing ground, but it's better than nothing and probably saved us from some true horrors. Someone with more caring than I have should start looking at BFZ block for potential combo pieces or overlooked good cards that don't see play right now. Luckily BFZ block is mostly a steaming pile for Standard so its not too hard to pick out the dangerous cards which are almost all Eldrazi. Angry Grimace posted:I see what he's saying, but I think perhaps he means just Kaladesh *cards* because the only mechanic involved in the Tier 1 decks specifically are Vehicles, and out of those Heart of Kiran is the only one that's blatantly unfair. Yeah what I was trying to get at is that these are decks that want to maintain a critical mass of artifacts and/or energy spells, so they have limited room for improvement compared to whatever the pushed strategies in Amonkhet are going to be. The worst that can happen probably is if Amonkhet has a better shell for the Saheeli combo than the current energy shell.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:05
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Marketing New Brain posted:The last series of bans were too aggressive anyway and Smugglers Copter should have been the only card removed, but too late to fix that now. Emrakul 100% had to go and if Copter was the only card banned the only playable deck would be 4-Color-Delirium-Copy-Cat-Emrakul-Marvel.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:11
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Tales of Woe posted:Luckily BFZ block is mostly a steaming pile for Standard so its not too hard to pick out the dangerous cards which are almost all Eldrazi. That really depends on new systems being more broken than the systems before them, which is probably a much worse sign for the game as a whole. There are, of course, plenty of pushed and broken designs that never manage to break anything - Thought-Knot Seer is one of them. It only really breaks things when you can power it out earlier than expected. The thing is, the Cat has to go. There's no real question about it. It's mostly just optics, and I don't envy Forsythe for having to deal with it - the only thing that sucks about the decision is the fact they have to bullshit us with "well Temur Tower was being played at Utrecht" instead of admitting that for financial reasons it makes less sense to ban a deck out of existence mid-cycle. Which is true - the release of a new set means people are going to be BUYING cards and building decks, regardless of what's legal. Banning Cat right now means you have a negative flow of people playing the game since Cat players likely give up until Amonkhet (or possibly leave the game entirely), and few people are going to be in a buying mood when WOTC just banned an entire deck and the format is in lame duck status. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 19:11
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Reflector Mage would be in the Saheli decks right? Works with her and Guardian and seems to serve the decks purposes very well. Think it could be pretty disgusting. Amonkhet has to be pretty loving good now, both to get standard on the right track and rebuild trust in R&D after so many gently caress ups, but leaving Guardian out there is pretty bad.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:14
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ThePeavstenator posted:Emrakul 100% had to go and if Copter was the only card banned the only playable deck would be 4-Color-Delirium-Copy-Cat-Emrakul-Marvel. You might be right about that, I hated the design of that card, and I wasn't sorry to see reflector mage go either, which is the type of card that when it is is good, its too good, and when it isn't good it sees no play and doesn't matter. E: reflector mage reminded me a little of Maelstrom Pulse, where it would randomly blow someone out who had drawn too many Oblivion Rings, steppe lynxes or putrid leeches. Randomly time walking your opponent some percentage of the time just doesn't seem like good design on a man-o-war. Marketing New Brain fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 19:19
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SSG is perfectly fine.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:21
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I wanna know about the thread title. Because I don't really play Magic anymore, but I remember loving Kamigawa back in the day so I wanna know if the thread title is serious or ironic.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:26
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BJPaskoff posted:That's a good point. Standard is going to potentially get worse before it gets better. The FFL has already proven to be a poor testing ground, but it's better than nothing and probably saved us from some true horrors. Someone with more caring than I have should start looking at BFZ block for potential combo pieces or overlooked good cards that don't see play right now. Isn't part of the problem that after FFL makes all their adjustments to the set, cards still get further tweaks anyway? Like, I find it very hard to believe that Felidar Guardian's combo with Saheeli was missed. The combo was figured out immediately the day it was revealed and people were trying to make something like it work in Modern when Kaladesh came out. Someone had to have known this was a thing and wanted to see how things would turn out.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:28
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MonsieurChoc posted:I wanna know about the thread title. Because I don't really play Magic anymore, but I remember loving Kamigawa back in the day so I wanna know if the thread title is serious or ironic. Ironic
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Mar 13, 2017 19:29
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DoctorOozy posted:Ironic drat. What was bad about Kamigawa? I thought it was a lot of fun after how incredibly terrible the Mirrodin Power-Creep was.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:31
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The entire thing where they decided to keep BFZ past Amonkhet is bizarre anyways. Why not just let it rotate as usual but announce a return to Fall rotation after this Spring? The answer that would fill you with dread is that Amonkhet Gideon is so much better than BFZ Gideon you won't want to play BFZ Gideon. MonsieurChoc posted:drat. What was bad about Kamigawa? I thought it was a lot of fun after how incredibly terrible the Mirrodin Power-Creep was. The mechanics were fiddly and strange, it played oddly with two powerful blocks around it, nobody understood the flavor because they expected Anime Trope World and got Legit Japanese Mythology World. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 19:31
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MonsieurChoc posted:I wanna know about the thread title. Because I don't really play Magic anymore, but I remember loving Kamigawa back in the day so I wanna know if the thread title is serious or ironic. Serious for some, ironic for others. I'm in the group that laughs at Kamigawa not gaining much positive reception because nerds couldn't accept actual japanese fantasy and wanted a block filled only with samurai, ninjas, and catgirls. I never played during that era so I'd actually like a return to Kamigawa block. They fixed the formula though: Kaladesh was supposed to be Indian mythology but it's steampunk fantasy. So I imagine RTK will of course be the anime block but probably throw in a healthy dose of western fantasy just to keep the setting whitebread enough for consumption. Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 19:36
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MonsieurChoc posted:I wanna know about the thread title. Because I don't really play Magic anymore, but I remember loving Kamigawa back in the day so I wanna know if the thread title is serious or ironic. for some it's serious, for some, ironic. depends on if you like the flavor or hate the mechanics
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Mar 13, 2017 19:36
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Angry Grimace posted:The mechanics were fiddly and strange, it played oddly with two powerful blocks around it, nobody understood the flavor because they expected Anime Trope World and got Legit Japanese Mythology World. After reading a book on Yokai and how hilarious some of them are, I would legit appreciate another block like Kamigawa from a flavor perspective. For example, this wet lady who will follow you around forever if you smile at her. Cactrot fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 19:36
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Angry Grimace posted:The thing is, the Cat has to go. There's no real question about it. It's mostly just optics, and I don't envy Forsythe for having to deal with it - the only thing that sucks about the decision is the fact they have to bullshit us with "well Temur Tower was being played at Utrecht" instead of admitting that for financial reasons it makes less sense to ban a deck out of existence mid-cycle. Which is true - the release of a new set means people are going to be BUYING cards and building decks, regardless of what's legal. Banning Cat right now means you have a negative flow of people playing the game since Cat players likely give up until Amonkhet (or possibly leave the game entirely), and few people are going to be in a buying mood when WOTC just banned an entire deck and the format is in lame duck status. Yeah it is pretty much exactly this. The cat will need to go eventually, it is a ticking time bomb that will eventually get the right shell and be the best deck. Let people who bought it have their fun because it isn't completely broken now and then ban it when new cards come out and people were going to create new decks anyway. There's so little upside to banning it now and a lot of definite downside but the writing is on the wall for that card.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:36
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mandatory lesbian posted:for some it's serious, for some, ironic. depends on if you like the flavor or hate the mechanics I liked both back in the day. 
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Mar 13, 2017 19:45
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Star Man posted:Isn't part of the problem that after FFL makes all their adjustments to the set, cards still get further tweaks anyway? Phone posting, so sorry for the double post. Yeah the interaction is obvious so I assume a late change got made that enabled it. Saheeli might have been designed with her -2 being a -3 which instantly kills the combo, or Felidar was added late for an extra blink effect since they are all over the place in Kal/Aer and someone goofed with the templating and forgot to make it EOT like Flickerwisp or be unable to target Planeswalkers.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:48
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I think they just tunnel on certain cards for constructed and then when someone throws Felidar Guardian into the set file as a limited card for the UW blink deck, no one thinks to check it in Standard because it's not on their This Card Is Targeted At Standard list. They pretty much said as much for how they missed Reflector Mage.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:55
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MonsieurChoc posted:I liked both back in the day. personally i like playing my cards but we're all different
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Mar 13, 2017 19:55
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suicidesteve posted:....and completely ignoring how bad it currently is. I wish Mentor was never printed. I think taking a look at Gush or Git Probe would be a great place to start.
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Mar 13, 2017 19:57
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I was a literal child when Kamigawa came out and I thought the flavour was awesome. gently caress the haters.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:00
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Whether you remember Kamigawa fondly or hatefully depends on the type of memories you have of Heartbeat of Spring.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:03
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https://twitter.com/SaffronOlive/status/841299656197976064 Apparently the reasoning is, in the bad old days you could throw a Copter into any old deck and get something going.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:06
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Siivola posted:https://twitter.com/SaffronOlive/status/841299656197976064 Looting in every colour does enable a lot of things tbf
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Mar 13, 2017 20:09
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Imo Champions was a very good but not great set that was overshadowed in standard by affinity when it came out and even though it was actually pretty influential after affinity was banned, the perception of it as a weak set had already set in. It also had great limited, but it frustrated me back in the day because I didn't have much to add to my casual decks. Betrayers was a bad set; Ninja of the Deep Hours is a cool and good card but Umezawa's Jitte is an overpowered and frustrating card and there really wasn't much else worth mentioning. Saviors was trash and the only neat card in the set was Enduring Ideal. E: I guess Needle was also neat but the set is still trash. In My Opinion. Elyv fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 20:10
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Champions of Kamigawa was ahead of its time for limited, it was the first set to really refine a lot of the things we take for granted today like color pair archetypes and weird build-arounds and bad cards being niche rather than stone unplayable
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Mar 13, 2017 20:20
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I live for the thrill of equipping an Umezawa's Jitte to a True-Name Nemesis.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:25
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Saviors made me quit magic for a while. Unfortunately, this timing meant that I didn't get to experience the glory of Kamigawa-Ravnica or Ravnica-TimeSpiral T2
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Mar 13, 2017 20:27
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They could always just reprint Pithing Needle and solve a lot of problems at once. BBD brought this up and he's kind of right. It's a non-specific hate card that does work without hating out entire strategies.
Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 20:32
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Kamigawa in addition to setting the foundation for good limited play also has loads of iconic cards that have shaped every format in the game at various points, many of which are also absurdly awesome. Betrayers and Saviors had some terrible mechanics but it's still one of my favorite blocks, right behind the three that succeeded it. It's also basically the best Commander set ever. Like, look at this list of cards and tell me Kamigawa was bad: Sensei's Divining Top Sakura Tribe Elder Kodama's Reach Umizawa' s Jitte Desperate Ritual Shoals Enduring Ideal Ninja of the Deep Hours Lava Spike Kokusho Kiki Jiki Isamaru and a whole bunch of other poo poo I can't remember off the top of my head. Fajita Queen fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 20:33
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okay, kamigawa was bad that was easy
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Mar 13, 2017 20:41
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even if i agreed that kamigawa was super special awesome or whatever, saying jitte wasn't a mistake is uh, troublesome
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Mar 13, 2017 20:42
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mandatory lesbian posted:okay, kamigawa was bad And incorrect..... but lets just leave it at this, Kamigawa is a highly divisive set, whose flavor and mechanics spoke very powerfully to one subset of the magic playing populace but alienated another. That being said, Kamigawa did bring us a large amount of very powerful and unique cards that see play in all legal formats and have impacted the landscape of competitive magic greatly.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:45
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Madmarker posted:And incorrect..... I mean, there aren't *really* that many blocks don't contribute cards to non-rotating formats and EDH. I mean, Theros block is probably the worst block in terms of contributing to eternal formats, but it was the highest selling set by a lot when it came out.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:47
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Jitte is miserable though and lol at lava spike.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:48
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KillarySwank posted:I wish Mentor was never printed. Same except all of Khans block. And yeah, I don't know anyone who plays vintage (smmnennemnen excluded because lol Gush Book) who doesn't think Gush needs to go. Pontius Pilate posted:Jitte is miserable though and lol at lava spike. Half the time I play a Jitte I feel like it should be banned. It's so dumb.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:48
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Pontius Pilate posted:Jitte is miserable though and lol at lava spike. lava spike is good
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Mar 13, 2017 20:49
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Angry Grimace posted:I mean, there aren't *really* that many blocks don't contribute cards to non-rotating formats and EDH. I mean, Theros block is probably the worst block in terms of contributing to eternal formats, but it was the highest selling set by a lot when it came out. To be fair, that had been true of fall sets going back to Innistrad, each one was the new highest selling when it came out. Kaladesh was the set that broke that streak which is why WotC is freaking the gently caress out about standard.
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Mar 13, 2017 20:51
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