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Loving Life Partner posted:It's hard to overstate the extent of which false consciousness has permeated American thought, the "American Dream", belief in a 'just world', etc. America's nickname as THE GREAT SATAN is one apt cherry I love (from a line of leftism I mostly don't), I feel like we're uniquely in the history of the world a capitalist society the likes of which would have been Marx's nightmare final boss for the prole revolution.The conditions of our founding, expansion, the restructuring of the South IN A BIG WAY all have created this hellbeast of class blind angry exploited people who can't imagine or reach for much beyond vague tribalism and faith based reflexes Not a big enough way. We should have given Sherman six months and as many torches as he could carry. A huge part of our present political problems stem from being insufficiently firm with the boot that was on the South's neck after the Civil War.
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Mar 14, 2017 07:24
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OwlFancier posted:If you're arguing that I should suspend ethical reasoning and just go with whatever my instinctive reaction says then I proclaim the highest morals to be spending as much time as possible asleep and scratching your balls a lot in public. Keep going with that strawman. Edit: Seriously, that's not a thing that people do. I'm not a big fan of Mincome but whenever we've tried it, people don't loaf about. They actively engage and do things. Your dim view of human nature stems from a misinformed moral education. Shbobdb fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 07:35
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Loving Life Partner posted:It's hard to overstate the extent of which false consciousness has permeated American thought, the "American Dream", belief in a 'just world', etc. America's nickname as THE GREAT SATAN is one apt cherry I love (from a line of leftism I mostly don't), I feel like we're uniquely in the history of the world a capitalist society the likes of which would have been Marx's nightmare final boss for the prole revolution.The conditions of our founding, expansion, the restructuring of the South IN A BIG WAY all have created this hellbeast of class blind angry exploited people who can't imagine or reach for much beyond vague tribalism and faith based reflexes http://www.bestoftheleft.com/_1085_a_case_against_the_myth_of_individualism_culture
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Mar 14, 2017 07:40
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Liquid Communism posted:Not a big enough way. We should have given Sherman six months and as many torches as he could carry. A huge part of our present political problems stem from being insufficiently firm with the boot that was on the South's neck after the Civil War. Uh, how would a brutal, war crime-heavy occupation "help?" The South already hated the North, why would murdering all of them fix this problem? Ignoring how unethical it is, is it even practical? Do such bloody occupations have a good success rate of putting down all dissent? Shbobdb posted:Easy, culture does change. Do I kill people for money? No. That would be wrong, obviously .But I think that's too simple and extreme. But that's not my point. I was asking what in human society or culture defines good and evil since our ideas of those two things have changed constantly throughout history? NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 07:44
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NikkolasKing posted:Uh, how would a brutal, war crime-heavy occupation "help?" The South already hated the North, why would murdering all of them fix this problem? Republicans do kill people for money, but I do agree it is "obviously" wrong. That's your answer. It's been touched on in other areas in this thread. The mass line takes time to build but during the Roman times there were abolitionists. In early America there were abolitionists. They were considered extreme. Now their views are accepted as morally correct. To argue the moral relativism you are espousing is to ignore their achievements and normalize brutality.
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Mar 14, 2017 07:46
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The lack of an objective morality doesn't preclude moral conviction. If you believe something, then your act on the basis of that belief, at the time you have that belief.
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Mar 14, 2017 07:48
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OwlFancier posted:It's immaterial in that it runs up against the chinese room problem, observation of a mind cannot tell you whether it is self aware, merely that it responds suitably to stimulus.
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Mar 14, 2017 07:53
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Shbobdb posted:Keep going with that strawman. My dim view of human nature stems from the fact that I am acutely aware of how insufficient gut instinct is as a moral guide, as my gut instinct most certainly does not correlate with any substantive moral code. Reasoned ethics exist because gut instinct is woefully inadequate. Suggesting we abandon them in favor of whatever feels right is laughable. rudatron posted:You're making assumptions about awareness and consciousness that have not been proven, and ones I find questionable - the assumption that only a immaterial consciousness can be 'truly conscious', because otherwise it's somehow equivalent to the Chinese room, is very problematic. If your concept of self awareness is simply that a thing looks self aware then it makes absolutely no sense to suggest that religion is any impediment to it.
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Mar 14, 2017 08:56
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Religion teaches you to value emotional attachment towards facts about reality. Emotions are not a viable way of discovering knowledge about the world, because the universe does not give 2 shits about how you feel. It simply does. Similarly, the process of self awareness requires you to confront uncomfortable truths about yourself, constantly. Therefore, a system of beliefs that encourages people to ignore reality in favor of what feels true ('spirituality') is one that teaches people not to confront themselves, and live in ignorance.
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Mar 14, 2017 09:20
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reminder that shoboab the morals man belives that thirty million people should be executed
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Mar 14, 2017 09:35
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Liquid Communism posted:Not a big enough way. We should have given Sherman six months and as many torches as he could carry. A huge part of our present political problems stem from being insufficiently firm with the boot that was on the South's neck after the Civil War.
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Mar 14, 2017 09:38
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Great listen, super pro click!
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Mar 14, 2017 09:39
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rudatron posted:Similarly, the process of self awareness requires you to confront uncomfortable truths about yourself, constantly. So, religion?
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Mar 14, 2017 09:42
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coyo7e posted:I literally quit playing online games entirely, because every time I could hear someone talking, it was some teenager bitching about Hillary Clinton being "a second affirmative-action president". I'm not defending Gamergate or "gamer" culture in any way. 1% is an exaggeration, but video games are ubiquitous now. 59% of Americans play video games, and the largest demographic is now adult women. The issue of teenagers/adult being loud bigoted assholes online is not a new thing and we are seeing a brand new world with the rise of Trump where they are emboldened. Imagine being a 15 year old shithead from a random town where there's standard American casual misogyny/racism, and now the America has Donald "Grab 'em by the pussy" Trump for president. Video games are just entertainment and come with a similar set of problems as all of our pop culture. Again, gently caress Gamergate assholes, seriously. Their harassment campaigns were vicious, and disgustingly sexist. They're angry and afraid that video games are now enjoyed by everyone and not middle/upper class white men (boys). But they don't represent the overwhelming majority of gamers.
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Mar 14, 2017 09:51
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NikkolasKing posted:But that's not my point. I was asking what in human society or culture defines good and evil since our ideas of those two things have changed constantly throughout history? You can arrive at a good moral framework with basic empathy - i would not wish to be murdered, therefore murder is wrong. I would enjoy getting help if ever in need of it, therefore charity is good. And so on.
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Mar 14, 2017 10:00
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Is it possible for one's emotions and intuition to be poisoned — as by, for example, addiction, depression, disease, or social pressure —so that this moral framework cannot be validly constructed?
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Mar 14, 2017 10:15
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Cingulate posted:I remember, and prefer, the left that believed it was suffering and oppression that created reactionary ideologies, with the hope that people, ever malleable, could be uplifted, with adequate nutrition, health, love and support, and education into the humanitarian and cosmopolitan spirit. Yeah, well, as we say to Libertarians : "on the other hand, recorded history"
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Mar 14, 2017 10:34
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Bolocko posted:Is it possible for one's emotions and intuition to be poisoned — as by, for example, addiction, depression, disease, or social pressure —so that this moral framework cannot be validly constructed? If you base it on emotions and feelings then yes, obviously. Which is why we should use logical rational arguments rather than feelings. You can feel that something is right or wrong but need an actuall argument to back up your stance if you want to make it a law for example.
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Mar 14, 2017 10:51
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Bolocko posted:So, religion?
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Mar 14, 2017 11:02
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Are we really stuck on "without god what's to stop us from doing whatever we want"? How old is everyone here?
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Mar 14, 2017 11:26
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zh1 posted:Are we really stuck on "without god what's to stop us from doing whatever we want"? How old is everyone here? Hey, we haven't gotten to the Problem of Evil yet. 
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Mar 14, 2017 11:28
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NikkolasKing posted:Question. How does one embrace moral absolutism without the presence of a higher authority? What is evil now wasn't evil a few short centuries ago. Would you judge every racist or slave owner in history as evil when they could not possibly know any better?
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Mar 14, 2017 11:36
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Liquid Communism posted:Hey, we haven't gotten to the Problem of Evil yet. But I gotta be religious so I can see my mommy and daddy again after I die. Can you handle that argument, atheists?
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Mar 14, 2017 11:39
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zh1 posted:See, this is a misconception that could have been handled if the U.S. had even a halfway decent education system. Still, I remember learning as a child that many people "knew better" even back in the day. How is possible to be unaware of all the well-known abolitionists as an adult in loving 2017? Okay, I went to public school but I know who John Brown was and I remember the Underground Railroad stuff. But so what? What about a century before that? Was abolitionism big in the 17th or 18th century? That I honestly don't know a thing about. And what if we went back even further, to Antiquity? Was everyone in Athens evil because they were racist and sexist as gently caress slave owners? NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 11:49
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To answer the original question: unless we are talking hardcore communists, whom I loathe, then unfortunately no.
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Mar 14, 2017 11:52
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I'm surprised the thread has such a bad rating. We've had a few pages of decent, civil discussion.NikkolasKing posted:Okay, I went to public school but I know who John Brown was and I remember the Underground Railroad stuff. Galen Strawson posted:Maybe one way to put it is this: People in themselves aren’t evil, there’s no such thing as moral evil in that sense, but evil exists, great evil, and people can be carriers of great evil. You might reply, Look, if they’re carriers of evil they just are evil, face the facts. But I would have to say that your response is in the end superficial. After all, we don’t call natural disasters evil. Liquid Communism posted:Yeah, well, as we say to Libertarians : "on the other hand, recorded history" Cingulate fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 12:33
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Heh, it's by far the longest and most thought-provoking thread I've ever made. Apart from some trolling, I'm glad I made this. And that is a good and enlightened view you have there. I wish I could be less judgmental.
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Mar 14, 2017 12:47
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NikkolasKing posted:How does one embrace moral absolutism without the presence of a higher authority? Just how would the presence of a powerful entity make any difference to morality, unless you already have 'obey powerful beings' as a root moral conviction?
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Mar 14, 2017 13:01
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NikkolasKing posted:And that is a good and enlightened view you have there. I wish I could be less judgmental. I think this is good and helpful. On this fallibility of man, Strawson, in the passage just before the one I just quoted: Galen Strawson posted:BLVR: You’re right that many people find this hard to swallow. As you write in one of your essays, if it all comes down to luck, “even Hitler is let off the hook.” So how should we regard Hitler and Stalin and other villains of history? Should we view them like we view the Lisbon earthquake, or the Plague? That's an even more powerful quote, I think. Strawson is an aggressive materialist and a convinced atheist, with a particular distaste for Christianity, but this line is I think very close to the New Testament.
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Mar 14, 2017 13:10
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Cingulate posted:I believe that is what Libertarians like to say to Communists ..? It's really applicable to both. I'm mostly using it here as a rejection that, historically, radicals are uplifted via education. As is very relevant to the thread topic, it is very difficult to argue someone logically out of a position that they never talked themselves into logically. Indoctrination and bad cultural norms are incredibly powerful, and historically are only broken by forceful intervention into the culture that produces them.
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Mar 14, 2017 13:17
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Liquid Communism posted:It's really applicable to both. I'm mostly using it here as a rejection that, historically, radicals are uplifted via education. As is very relevant to the thread topic, it is very difficult to argue someone logically out of a position that they never talked themselves into logically. Indoctrination and bad cultural norms are incredibly powerful, and historically are only broken by forceful intervention into the culture that produces them. - what you describe. Take some kids who have been socialized into violence, and try to re-educate them. - have kids grow up in the context of a decent education, hoping they'll never be socialized into violence in the first place. Still, I was more interested in left ideals and goals. E.g., some dream of a world where nobody is racist because everyone loves their neighbor instead. Others dream of a world where all the racists have been burned at the stake. Regardless of what's more realistic, I'd rather hang out with group #1.
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Mar 14, 2017 13:31
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NikkolasKing posted:Uh, how would a brutal, war crime-heavy occupation "help?" The South already hated the North, why would murdering all of them fix this problem? They can't hate the north if they're all dead, now can they?
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Mar 14, 2017 15:57
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Cingulate posted:Well I didn't want to make a specific claim about what we should actually go for, just about ideals. But at least there's two possible scenarios here: I don't think violence is something humans have to be socialized into.
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Mar 14, 2017 16:24
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From religious leftist Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: "For civilized societies, the absence of reason and compassion is the very definition of pure evil because it is a rejection of our sacred values, distilled from millennia of struggle." ... "The audience’s willing suspension of disbelief is great for poorly written horror films, but when government tries to promote it to the American people, us buying into it would be social suicide. We can’t suspend our rational minds while a schlockmeister-in-chief turns our foreign policy into the tacky Plan 9 From Outer Space. The only way Trump can make a ban like this work, since it is so egregiously unconstitutional, is to convince the people that there is no legitimate source of truth except his administration. Trump adviser Kellyanne Conway describes the president’s first week of extensive lying as "alternate facts" and, in a Fox interview, even used references that compared Trump to Jesus. Trump strategist Steve Bannon has called the media “the opposition party.” They are trying to convince the public that no one has the moral integrity to judge what they say or do. Just like the royalty of old that Americans fought to get away from, they rule through God’s grace and so are infallible. Just ask them." ------- full editorial
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Mar 14, 2017 16:32
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Panzeh posted:I don't think violence is something humans have to be socialized into. I don't want to imply a state of nature where everyone is peaceful or anything like that, although I would assume you need a bit of ideology for cooperative mass murder (e.g., above small-group, personal conflicts).
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Mar 14, 2017 16:42
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Man, if we tear down all those Ten Commandments monuments, gonna be a lot of dead people.
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Mar 14, 2017 18:40
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would it be gauche to point out that the scientific method is literally based on an article of faith?
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Mar 14, 2017 20:43
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Hume: "Both the sciences man and the religions man are dumb"
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Mar 14, 2017 20:44
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A big flaming stink posted:would it be gauche to point out that the scientific method is literally based on an article of faith? And physicists and mathematicians generally are willing to admit that there are some holes in math and physics which could someday be discovered and which could really, really gently caress up our understanding of things.
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Mar 14, 2017 21:05
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What Happens When a Irresistible Frickin' Force Meets a Unmoveable Mothershitting Object, Science? Your Move, Butt-Turd.NikkolasKing posted:Okay, I went to public school but I know who John Brown was and I remember the Underground Railroad stuff.
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Mar 14, 2017 22:37
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