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Darko posted:Tribalism is a huge part of it to. In fact, the economic part works so well because of the natural inclination of tribalism. "Tribalism" is just as likely to promote cooperation and trade. Tribalism, for example, is useful socially when you can use it to join two peoples together through a series of marriages. Racism specifically originates from justifying inequity. It's a reification of an advantageous social and economic arrangement. What stokes racism is arguably irrational, but you can track the development of racism over the past half millenium and it's remarkably consistent despite the fluidity of its categories. Hat Thoughts posted:still obsessed with the guy i heard saying the problem with the movie was that "once again scientists are the bad guy" That guy owns.
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Mar 14, 2017 17:07
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DeimosRising posted:I bet he's one of those people who gets super mad if you mention how great Frankenstein is Tribalism is definitely a natural inclination; primates do it, and humans have historically done it since we can trace back. Grouping people according to skin color and features is something that European colonialism created, as this was the first time it could be done on a universal, near-worldwide level, and it "naturally" stuck because we're visual creatures and group things according to visuals constantly (probably). Appealing to tribalism doesn't mean appealing to race distinctions in itself, but people grouping themselves due to some similarity (including location) and creating an "other." Europeans just making a dumb visual grouping like that is something that easily works on a lot of people.
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Mar 14, 2017 17:22
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:"Tribalism" is just as likely to promote cooperation and trade. Tribalism, for example, is useful socially when you can use it to join two peoples together through a series of marriages. Racism specifically originates from justifying inequity. It's a reification of an advantageous social and economic arrangement. What stokes racism is arguably irrational, but you can track the development of racism over the past half millenium and it's remarkably consistent despite the fluidity of its categories. Racism is sourced in justifying colonial dominance over groups, but it perpetuates today, outside of all common sense, because of how well it fits into how people generally like to group things. It crosses over into resources a ton, but it also exists outside of those considerations because it aligns with where people generally fall back into on "instinct." We know why the idea of race, and thus racism, exists, but now that it exists, it branches out beyond its source and exists in more insidious forms because of that.
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Mar 14, 2017 17:27
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Darko posted:Tribalism is definitely a natural inclination; primates do it, and humans have historically done it since we can trace back. Historically and anthropologically, group identity (and "race") have been conceived of as performative and cultural far more often than the modern, semi-genetic conception. The critical features of "race" for virtually all premodern groups from whom we have written or oral records were language, clothing, and religion, only one of which is visually expressed and all of which are performative and voluntary. We shouldn't uncritically accept conclusions based on the results of studies performed on modern people, either, because by the time they can do the studies they have already been enculturated into skin color racism.
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Mar 14, 2017 17:37
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Darko posted:Racism is sourced in justifying colonial dominance over groups, but it perpetuates today, outside of all common sense, because of how well it fits into how people generally like to group things. It crosses over into resources a ton, but it also exists outside of those considerations because it aligns with where people generally fall back into on "instinct." Yes, but there's a reason racism is concieved of as distinct from prejudice. The world is full of petty prejudices, cultural and otherwise. Individuals invariably filter their own prejudice through their own pathologies. Racism, however, is about the levering of power. We can catalog symptoms all day but if you wanna understand it, you have to talk about the whole phenomenon, and it's not just pathology. Overcoming it has got to go beyond individual diagnosis.
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Mar 14, 2017 18:12
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Groovelord Neato posted:c'mon man you're gonna come at me with that poo poo and you didn't get why the groundskeeper was running. It's not like "deep subtext" is a thing you unlock once you 100% the regular thinking dude. I'm not ashamed to admit I didn't quite get one event of the movie, and even then it wasn't one that heavily impacts readings or anything, just one event of the old people showing off their new bodies out of the multiple in the movie.
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Mar 14, 2017 19:12
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:"Tribalism" is just as likely to promote cooperation and trade. Tribalism, for example, is useful socially when you can use it to join two peoples together through a series of marriages. Racism specifically originates from justifying inequity. It's a reification of an advantageous social and economic arrangement. What stokes racism is arguably irrational, but you can track the development of racism over the past half millenium and it's remarkably consistent despite the fluidity of its categories. It's important for people understand the terms they're using, otherwise you have people calling antiracism 'racist' because egalitarianism is insufficiently multicultural - which gets things backwards. Multiculturalism has always been a decaf alternative to true equality. Or, as you've addressed, you have the conflation of racism with tribalism or basic prejudice. Prejudgment happens all the time, but Racism is a specific ideology, which originated as a justification for the slave trade. There was no racism before the concept of race. That's why we specify 'racial prejudice', to distinguish it from other sorts. Also, it's worth noting that 'reverse racism' does not exist except in the sense that, for example, white liberals praise other races for their beautiful cultural practices and so-on, while remaining ignorant or indifferent to injustice, inequality.
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Mar 14, 2017 21:40
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Yes, but there's a reason racism is concieved of as distinct from prejudice. The world is full of petty prejudices, cultural and otherwise. Individuals invariably filter their own prejudice through their own pathologies. Racism, however, is about the levering of power. We can catalog symptoms all day but if you wanna understand it, you have to talk about the whole phenomenon, and it's not just pathology. Overcoming it has got to go beyond individual diagnosis. You'll want to make very clear that you only use the term "racism" in the systemic sense, and you don't really get to declare that everyone else has to do the same. Many, many instances of the term "racism" in this thread, in wider discussions of this film, and in discussions of racism as a whole, refer to the personal sense of the word. You're right that it's not just pathology - nobody said it was. But it's not just the systemic meaning either. The word has two meanings, and if you're being honest it's easy to keep the two definitions distinct and meaningfully discuss how they interact. e: I make sure to not use "jealous" when I mean "envious", but that makes me a pedant, it doesn't make everyone else wrong. VROOM VROOM fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 21:51
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VROOM VROOM posted:You'll want to make very clear that you only use the term "racism" in the systemic sense, and you don't really get to declare that everyone else has to do the same. Without belaboring it, personal anecdotes about racism are interesting insofar as they contribute to an understanding. Without it, the concept of racism is very abstract and "essentializing". For example, the tendency to treat Chris and his boy in the TSA as one in the same. Chris "made it", he's a rising star in the arts, has a white girlfriend, a neat 1 BR in a nice part of town, a toy dog, etc. He already has the tastes of someone upwardly mobile. His specific anxiety is how he will fit within his girlfriend's lifestyle, if he's ready to get "sunk in" with corny, bougie people. It comes as a relief when the mask comes off and they're squeezing his muscles, asking him about basketball and winking about big black dicks. It's easy to reject and distance yourself these people, it's awkward, tired poo poo. It's not shocking, whether or not you've met some white girl's parents. That's his enforced blackness and it's not new. What's appaling to him is what he'll be asked to give up to buy into that life, because giving himself up is something he hadn't even considered. That's what Rod is worried about when he's sitting alone bored as hell dogsitting in Chris' apartment, soul deadness. No life, no energy, just conformity. The funniest joke in the movie is Rod immediately shutting Rose down because he's prejudiced. She's supposed to be kryptonite for black men, but she's basic. He's not a social climber, so he sees right through her.
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Mar 14, 2017 22:38
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Wonder if Rod left food for the dog when he picked up Chris at the end.
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Mar 15, 2017 00:34
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Something I was very interested in was the metaphor of becoming a passenger in your body while another person is in control - the constant struggle you face by having no control in your body. It's no accident that the flash from the phone camera unlocks that, obviously - it played a vital role in the very real, harsh aspects of oppression in police brutality. In terms of economic oppression, it becomes even more interesting. Minorities in America have to fight for every opportunity, seizing brief moments of "flash" - camera light - that allow them to have control of the moment, the public spotlight. This is where the movie, if we follow the metaphor directly, becomes most pessimistic, as the groundskeeper's final act of control is to deceive, kill, and commit suicide. Yet the context of the science fiction aspect of it makes it feel so real, so understandable, so basically human. There is no solution to escaping this situation that we know of, just like there's no solution to convincing every employer to hire minorities. What else would you do in that situation? What other option is left before the moment passes and you lose control again? This is the one part of the movie I've been mulling over in my head again and again because there's so much potential in that message. If you take this movie as a metaphor or speaking for internalized racism in some way, this is the darkest message it has to offer, but I certainly didn't take it that way. It's about a society that subjugates you on color, throwing a million justifications for this on top of that, desperately convincing you that they're not "bigots", and what can one person do? Get out, and end the cycle, by any means neccessary. Curious to know if I'm off-base on this; do you guys think that's taking it too far? Violence makes sense in this situation, or in any context of the horror movie, but it's fairly essential and even subversive to the horror movie genre that the protagonist initiates the actual physical "violence" (beyond being captured, auctioned off, chained in, knocked out, physically, emotionally, and psychologically exploited and tortured). It's also hella justified. You can take the house experience as just dealing with different kinds of racists easily, but it's possible that those racists being entirely in control of the situation isn't off-message. (Also it's my favorite, and probably the most complex, horror movie ever.)
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Mar 15, 2017 11:08
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Loved the film. A little touch I love thinking back on the film is in the opening shot of Rose, basically the first thing we see her doing is browsing several similar looking pastries, deciding which to consume. Not a mind-blowing 6th Sense thing, just more evidence that the script/production was given a lot of love and a lot of attention. Nothing was wasted, not even the world building.
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Mar 15, 2017 14:52
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So I went with a friend last night who hadn't seen it to see it again. The movie seems more dreadful when you know what is going on. The laughable weird old ignorant white people party vibes turn into vile stuff when you actually know what they are doing. What's neat to me is that during the first viewing I found the party goers to be funny and the grandparents to creepy. With the second viewing the roles reversed. It's more fun to watch the grand parents whereas the party people are super creepy. I do have one goonsay question about the movie: When Chris is watching the briefing video by Grandpa, Grandpa says that he tested/perfected the procedure on his own flesh and blood and and shows a shot of the whole family. What are we supposed to believe about that? All the family members appeared to be in their original bodies unless the procedure was done before moving them from their old body into their current white body. Also, the procedure seemed to be called the "Coagula" or that's just what they say when the participate in their "Order of the Coagula" stuff. I can't help but want to know more about the secret society or whatever but I'm glad the movie doesn't really get into it. mary had a little clam posted:A little touch I love thinking back on the film is in the opening shot of Rose, basically the first thing we see her doing is browsing several similar looking pastries, deciding which to consume. I noticed this during my re-watch last night. It's cool watching and knowing she's not a good person, it makes her much worse. 2ill posted:Things That was interesting and I don't think it goes too far.
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Mar 15, 2017 15:16
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I thought he said with his own flesh and blood, not on. Meaning its a process that he and family developed. I could be mistaken.
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Mar 15, 2017 16:10
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eSporks posted:I thought he said with his own flesh and blood, not on. Meaning its a process that he and family developed. I could be mistaken. That makes the most sense and you are probably right. I think I took "Developed with my own flesh and blood" to mean "we tried it out on our own flesh and blood".
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Mar 15, 2017 16:16
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UFOTofuTacoCat posted:I do have one goonsay question about the movie: When Chris is watching the briefing video by Grandpa, Grandpa says that he tested/perfected the procedure on his own flesh and blood and and shows a shot of the whole family. What are we supposed to believe about that? It's exactly what he says: the nuclear family is itself not 'natural', was a creation of the patriarch(y). The inconsistency is, however, an ideological symptom. Why do only the working-class conservative characters appear as freakish mixed-race abominations, with mismatched bodies, prominent scars, and a weakness to light? Simply because Chris has less sympathy for them. Whatever bad the white Hillary supporters may do, they remain less alien to him. It's the same as asking what happened to Andre. If we take the film's plot to its logical conclusion, the last scene should have been Chris and Rod flashing Andre so that he can join their avengers initiative. However, if this were to happen, the metaphoric narrative of the film would break down completely. Chris' and Rod's worldview depends on them being dismissed as crazy - the idea that they're powerless against a vast conspiracy is, again, comforting. But the truth is that Rod blatantly savotaged himself when he went to the cops. He could have simply said that he found the missing person, and the cops would quickly discover that Mr. Logan King is suddenly twenty years younger, and the wrong race. That's got to look like some sort of fraud. And what happened to the original white Logan? It's going to look like the wife did a murder. The truth is that there never was a 'white version' of Logan. There was only ever one character - Andre/Logan is listed in the credits as Andrew Logan King. One name.
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Mar 15, 2017 16:27
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SMG they're rich as gently caress white folk literally silent bidding on Chris' body in a slave auction.
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Mar 15, 2017 17:14
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Annointed posted:SMG they're rich as gently caress white folk literally silent bidding on Chris' body in a slave auction. The auction scene is intercut with Chris describing how he's been having weird thoughts ever since his hypnosis. This visual storytelling conveys that the auction is 'just' another weird thought - that Chris felt like he was being put up for auction. The old people are certainly rich and racist, but the point of the film is that Chris can only make sense of these bad things in terms of conspiracy theory. The idea that there is a grand conspiracy is more comforting than the reality that racism is systemic, and that these individual people are merely well-meaning idiots.
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Mar 15, 2017 18:21
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Chris went through the gauntlet of white people fetishizing him and could have been in serious trouble with the cop in one of the first scenes. The majority of the text from the white characters was microagressions of commonly said racist rhetoric spouted by white liberals. This isn't even from a context of a conspiracy when the cast made a point of making said scenes reminiscent of modern day discrimination. Chris was in tears by the end of that party. I don't think "well meaning folk" was in his vocabulary after he murdered the body appropriating family. Annointed fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 18:34
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Annointed posted:Chris went through the gauntlet of white people fetishizing him and could have been in serious trouble with the cop in one of the first scenes. Yes? Those characters are racist in a boring, familiar way that Chris has learned to put up with. There's no shocking subversion here, where the white people are revealed to be racist. When the one guest asks 'is it true what they say?', we all instantly know exactly what she means. The fact that these people are racist is the basic premise. The expectation that they will be racist is established in one of the earliest lines of dialogue. People are celebrating the film's premise that racism exists, and missing there's a whole surreal film after that. This entire film is about how the protagonist attempts to combat racism, and that's where it gets loopy.
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Mar 15, 2017 18:53
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The auction scene is intercut with Chris describing how he's been having weird thoughts ever since his hypnosis. This visual storytelling conveys that the auction is 'just' another weird thought - that Chris felt like he was being put up for auction. No, that's wrong. Chris is actually up for auction, he is actually bought and sold, he is actually captured, and that old man is actually lobotomized with the intention of actually taking control of his body and making Chris a passenger in his own brain, rarely or barely in control. In fact, Chris doesn't even see the auction. It's one of the few scenes shot entirely outside of his perspective and he goes entirely uninformed by it. You can't hand-wave away the plot of this movie by saying it was "weird thoughts" inspired by "hypnosis". Also, the conspiracy is real, as shown by the short infomercial Chris is forced to watch.
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Mar 15, 2017 20:29
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2ill posted:No, that's wrong. Chris is actually up for auction, he is actually bought and sold, he is actually captured, and that old man is actually lobotomized with the intention of actually taking control of his body and making Chris a passenger in his own brain, rarely or barely in control. In fact, Chris doesn't even see the auction. It's one of the few scenes shot entirely outside of his perspective and he goes entirely uninformed by it. I mean, once you travel down this road, you have to contend with the facts that: there is no person named Chris, he has no girlfriend, they don't visit her family, etc.
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Mar 15, 2017 20:47
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The whole movie actually took place within a racist child's snowglobe
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Mar 15, 2017 20:55
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2ill posted:No, that's wrong. Chris is actually up for auction, he is actually bought and sold, he is actually captured, and that old man is actually lobotomized with the intention of actually taking control of his body and making Chris a passenger in his own brain, rarely or barely in control. In fact, Chris doesn't even see the auction. It's one of the few scenes shot entirely outside of his perspective and he goes entirely uninformed by it. The Brian O'Blivion reference should have clued you in that "your reality is already half video hallucination. If you're not careful, it will become total hallucination." We're talking about a film where the protagonist travels to an alternate dimension inside the floor and so-on. The dialogue outright states that Chris is questioning his reality after the hypnosis, and the formal qualities of the film back this up. The film even includes the cliche "it's a in his head" ending - where all the evidence of the gremlin on the wing is conveniently destroyed & there are no other eyewitnesses. The only twist is that, instead of being sent to the loony bin, he willingly jumps into the car with his loony friend.
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Mar 15, 2017 21:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The film even includes the cliche "it's a in his head" ending - where all the evidence of the gremlin on the wing is conveniently destroyed & there are no other eyewitnesses. The only twist is that, instead of being sent to the loony bin, he willingly jumps into the car with his loony friend. Except for Andre, who was definitely kidnapped and definitely had his brain scooped. To say that it's all in his head would completely invalidate a large part of the commentary, as any criticism of white people could be dismissed as Chris's paranoia. The idea is that these are actual things whites people do taken to the ultimate extreme, not "niggas be crazy".
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Mar 15, 2017 21:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The Brian O'Blivion reference should have clued you in that "your reality is already half video hallucination. If you're not careful, it will become total hallucination." We're talking about a film where the protagonist travels to an alternate dimension inside the floor and so-on. The dialogue outright states that Chris is questioning his reality after the hypnosis, and the formal qualities of the film back this up. It's not an alternate dimension, though. It's very clearly defined as "a mental state where one lacks control of your own body". Even in this state, Chris has a clear, unchanging view of what is happening, though it is zoomed out and blurred. Nothing absurd, unrealistic, or even questionable compared to the rest of the movie happens in this state. The characters attempting to manipulate Chris - all of them with the exception of Rod - all benefit from having him question his reality and be anxious and uncertain about the information he is receiving as it lulls him into a sense of security until the point where he needs to be psychologically ready for the procedure, at which point the full truth is revealed. The elements of uncertainty in the movie are designed to increase the tension and demonstrate the uncertainty of living in a society where you always have to question what you're being told about race, color, privilege, et cetera, not invalidate the plot of the movie. Yes, the crime scene at the end of the movie looks bad, but it doesn't fully fall into the horror movie cliche of "inexplicable" because it's clearly not the work of one man, though. Multiple of the Armitages are in scrubs. Dean's holding the bonesaw and clearly performing a planned lobotomy. The tape and the television are undamaged. There are clear signs of struggle (read; no one is innocent). Also, is Rod loony??? 2ill fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 22:44
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TheHan posted:Except for Andre, who was definitely kidnapped and definitely had his brain scooped. To say that it's all in his head would completely invalidate a large part of the commentary, as any criticism of white people could be dismissed as Chris's paranoia. The idea is that these are actual things whites people do taken to the ultimate extreme, not "niggas be crazy". Chris is already dismissed as paranoid - that's the whole point of the ending - and, in fact, he is paranoid. The fact that he's paranoid is independent of whether or not there actually is a conspiracy. Note how Chris is pathologically jealous before even finding out that his girlfriend cheated. This example is straight out of Zizek: "recall Lacan's outrageous statements that, even if what a jealous husband claims about his wife (that she sleeps around with other men) is all true, his jealousy is still pathological." The same is true of the paranoia. Even if Chris's claims are factual, his paranoia is still pathological because it represses the true reason that he needed there to be a conspiracy - to sustain his liberal-ideological position. Keep in mind that it cannot all be in his head. Pure ideology is impossible. And, again, the film begins with the premise that racism does exist. The film is about 'a man who goes crazy', but it's also very much about the forces that made him go crazy. The same is true of The Terminator. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 22:54
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in the fictional world of the film, the silent auction actually occurs. tho i do have to laugh at thinking the auction is all in his head but also arguing he falls through the floor into some subfloor dimension and that not being imagery to show his transition into the sunken place inside his own mind. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 22:58
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Groovelord Neato posted:in the fictional world of the film, the silent auction actually occurs. The 'sunken place' is presented as equally (un)real as Chris' memory of his mother's death, or anything else that happens. The film depicts a reality: Chris' reality. This reality is different from that of (for example) the cops, who are presented as incapable of perceiving things the same way. When Chris struggles to articulate his bad feelings about this trip, we cut to people silently plotting against him. That's the logic of the film. We see Chris' world, but truth is what cuts across the multitude of worlds. It's necessary to do the difficult task of seeing things from the perspective of 'Grandma Georgina'.
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Mar 15, 2017 23:55
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from her perspective, they are silently plotting against him.
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Mar 16, 2017 00:41
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Groovelord Neato posted:from her perspective, they are silently plotting against him. At no point does Chris interact with cops either.
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Mar 16, 2017 00:43
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JawnV6 posted:At no point does Chris interact with cops either. The cop that asks him for his license/state ID?
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Mar 16, 2017 00:46
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ruddiger posted:The cop that asks him for his license/state ID? Is alone without a partner. He never interacts with cops.
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Mar 16, 2017 01:05
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JawnV6 posted:At no point does Chris interact with cops either. I did not write that the cops interact with Chris. I wrote that they are presented as incapable of understanding Chris' perspective. That is the point of the ending.
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Mar 16, 2017 01:30
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but they are mostly incapable. 90 percent of white police believe the races have been made equal, only 7 percent disagree (as in only 7 percent inhabit reality).
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Mar 16, 2017 02:02
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Groovelord Neato posted:but they are mostly incapable. The fact that racism exists is, again, a basic premise of the film. We encounter an unambiguously racist cop in the first ten minutes. It's part of the setting: 2017 America. The actual film is about how the protagonist understands and attempts to combat racism. Compare these two phrases: A) "The war on terror is racist." B) "The war on terror is racist because jet fuel can't melt steel beams." Which one is more accurate?
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Mar 16, 2017 02:26
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that isn't analogous to anything i said.
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Mar 16, 2017 02:30
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Groovelord Neato posted:that isn't analogous to anything i said. You replied with 'but police are racist in real life', which is a non sequitur - unless your point is that the film (about a conspiracy by white people to make themselves 'cool' by transplanting their brains into the bodies of virile black men) is simply realistic - simply real. Even then, I've already implicitly asked you to define 'realism'. The trouble here is, again, that Chris is being automatically approached as an apolitical and apsychological figure - a 'rational actor' of sorts, who sees things as they really objectively are. That's to say that he's unlike the ideological baddies (whose vision is 'distorted by prejudice') or the ignorant muggles. Of course, what I've just outlined is the opinion of Stephen Root's character - his idea that blackness gives Chris a superior 'eye'. He's not like those white dummies; he's inherently better because he's 'from the streets', or something. Root is, of course, a genuine reverse racist. I, on the other hand, interpret Chris as being a human. He's flawed. He's a liberal who perceives black conservatives as freakish aliens, for example. He's jealous, paranoid, self-important, a conspiracy theorist, and not especially great at his job. That's the fun of the film, given that it's not the least bit scary: the character study. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 04:48
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quote:The film even includes the cliche "it's a in his head" ending - where all the evidence of the gremlin on the wing is conveniently destroyed & there are no other eyewitnesses. Actually, the twist at the end of the episode is that the damage is visible and the narration makes it clear that it is real. In the film, it's even more explicit with claw marks seen by maintenance crew. I haven't seen the film yet, I just wanted to point that out.
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Mar 16, 2017 05:21
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I don't understand. Do you think this is a movie about a man who gets invited to an awkward party, then goes home?
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Mar 16, 2017 05:38
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