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The_Book_Of_Harry posted:From religious leftist Kareem Abdul-Jabbar:
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Mar 14, 2017 22:42
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Why can't things be sacred if they were struggled for? That isn't self evident.
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Mar 14, 2017 22:49
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The left in America (such as it is...) fails precisely because it isn't hostile to religion. It's part of the same overarching problem of course, which is that the left in America is practically toothless, unsurprising given the history of oppression that continues here. Or you could say that the American left is not hostile enough, just in general. We want to hold ourselves to some kind of higher standard, which is noble, but there are lives at stake here and we can't afford to allow our better impulses to forgive the forces that are destroying us. The agents of capital aren't going to stop, and any kind of sane take on the principle of self-defense would empower a whole lot of direct action against fascism, all of which is being ignored because we can't even find the strength of will to deny a systematically illiberal belief system which is at odds with the very foundation of what is supposed to be a deliberative and representative government. There's no more time for "well, I disagree with you, but you have a right to your opinion" when pollution is going to kill all human life on this planet within several generations thanks to our vaunted philosophical generosity and inaction against people who are one of two things: deliberately misusing the religious arguments they purport to believe in (which makes them liars, but at least smart) or bringing the ceiling down around us based on a genuine belief in some kind of otherworldly power (which makes them criminally dangerous and insane). I hope your horses are high enough to keep you and your family above the coming floodwaters.
zh1 fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 22:59
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The Kingfish posted:Why can't things be sacred if they were struggled for? That isn't self evident. What is your definition of sacred? It seemed like he was trying to argue from a religious perspective. If he wasn't then he's smarter than I gave him credit for.
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Mar 14, 2017 23:15
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zh1 posted:What Happens When a Irresistible Frickin' Force Meets a Unmoveable Mothershitting Object, Science? Your Move, Butt-Turd. Next! zh1 posted:What is your definition of sacred? It seemed like he was trying to argue from a religious perspective. If he wasn't then he's smarter than I gave him credit for. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sacred quote:Definition of sacred Like, say, we could use the holocaust as an example. It's secular in nature, it's provable. People suffered, people died, and now it is held up as something which we need to continue to remember. It is, inherently a sacred piece of history - if an "accursed" one. Or we could go the patriotic route, and just point out that the US flag - literally a piece of cloth is widely considered to be sacred. People struggled and died for the flag, so people tend to get upset when you toss it on the ground and burn it. And Kareem-Abdul Jabbar is smart as gently caress. the fact that you just made a series of broad assumptions about him without knowing anything about him, well, that speaks more to your intelligence and wisdom than his. I mean he didn't train with Bruce Lee on a lark, he wsa pretty serious back then as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kareem_Abdul-Jabbar#Writing_and_activism Most of his list of writings are not about sports either, dude. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 23:30
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Oh man.
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Mar 14, 2017 23:47
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Bolocko posted:Is it possible for one's emotions and intuition to be poisoned — as by, for example, addiction, depression, disease, or social pressure —so that this moral framework cannot be validly constructed? Absolutely. It's more than that. We have to cultivate our innate sense of the good in order to be human. It's a process and it's not always an easy one. Lack of cultivation or a perverted development can and do result in deeply dysfunctional morals. Religion in general seems very bad at providing this cultivation since absence of religion seems to result in more fully realized humans. That's a broad category and I'm sure there are some exceptions. But you don't find meaningful exceptions when dealing with Christianity in the United States, as a specific. It's a broken institution resulting in broken, terrifying people who actively seek to do evil.
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Mar 15, 2017 02:49
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noted broken, terrifying person MLK Jr
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Mar 15, 2017 03:22
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Bolocko posted:Is it possible for one's emotions and intuition to be poisoned — as by, for example, addiction, depression, disease, or social pressure —so that this moral framework cannot be validly constructed? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7VaXlMvAvk&t=76s I worked in a psych research institution for a decade, and a lot of their studies involve measuring stress indicators in disadvantaged kids and/or their families. Stress makes you fat, it makes you choose poor decisions in the short-term instead of wise ones in the long-term, and it also leads people to abuse alcohol, drugs, their spouses, their children.. It's not really that people on drugs or booze or with a gambling problem slowly slip into moral turpitude, it's more that by the time they become dependant on whatever substance or vice they prefer, they've been reduced to a huge id, their super-ego has eroded away between the bad choices and the self-destructive thoughts they tend to have whenever they slip into a hole again, and their ego is playing traffic cop on flying stress neurons, instead of morality cop on their behavior.
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Mar 15, 2017 03:40
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Calibanibal posted:noted broken, terrifying person MLK Jr He says terrifying to certain people.
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Mar 15, 2017 03:49
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Calibanibal posted:noted broken, terrifying person MLK Jr I've clearly made exceptions for minority Churches. It wasn't MLK's faith that drove the Civil Rights movement. American Black Liberation has had Christians, Muslims, and atheists all fight for it while finding ground. It's almost like religion doesn't actually matter in this case! Because it doesn't. Edit: Like, do you not get what I'm saying? As a moral litmus test all I'm asking is "Does it produce reactionaries?" Trying to "got'cha" me with Black Churches clearly misses the point. Shbobdb fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 03:54
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i do hereby unilaterally declare the bad, reactionary religious people to be THE EXCEPTION and thus officially bring this very good thread to a close, on pg 24. thanks for coming ya'll
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Mar 15, 2017 04:06
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Shbobdb posted:I've clearly made exceptions for minority Churches. That's an....exceptionally bold claim to make, considering he was the Reverend MLK Jr. You're doing that weird thing where you hold religion responsible for everything bad associated with it, but try to explain away all the good things associated with religion. I'm not even saying your overall antipathy to religion is unfounded, but making claims like the above does you no good in establishing credibility for your position.
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Mar 15, 2017 04:11
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And Malcolm X and Farrakhan were Muslims. Bobby Seale and Huey Newton were atheists. Yet they all actively viewed each other as being part of the same movement. It's almost like religion doesn't matter.
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Mar 15, 2017 04:21
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A big flaming stink posted:That's an....exceptionally bold claim to make, considering he was the Reverend MLK Jr. Holy poo poo guys!
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Mar 15, 2017 04:46
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zh1 posted:Holy poo poo guys! Thanks for that. It's like internet warlord going, "THIS sick BURN will CLEANSE the opposition!11111" A big flaming stink, it's not like you are illuminating some new truth. You are trying to re-purpose old truths to serve old masters.
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Mar 15, 2017 04:49
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This forum is deader than the real Christ after 3 days stinking up that loving cave or whatever, what do you expect? For years now this place has been a punchline, and it's no surprise, everyone decent has been banned by the worthless mod/admin team. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 15, 2017 04:51
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Uh He Was The CHRIST you Guys, He was a Undeniable Religiousulilty MAN who Did a Fing...Now You Gonna Tell Me Other poo poo?? For OTHER REASON? What the fucka you fucka you gonna fucka you gonna fucka a hrer er ermmmennn....*Mashes d&d post button like a BAUS*
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Mar 15, 2017 04:55
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zh1 posted:Uh He Was The CHRIST you Guys, He was a Undeniable Religiousulilty MAN who Did a Fing...Now You Gonna Tell Me Other poo poo?? For OTHER REASON? What the fucka you fucka you gonna fucka you gonna fucka a hrer er ermmmennn....*Mashes d&d post button like a BAUS* This is a good post and would have been a great post once upon a time. But the modern shitposter has grown and developed. Tier 1, ZH1, is make sure you have someone buy an avatar and redtext for you. That is what makes you real. But, take my advice, D&D posters are p jaded. You need to spread your wings and fly to get the 'tard 'tar. I know you can do it.
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Mar 15, 2017 04:58
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don't even. my first red text tar was in 2002 or something and it called me the "jerry farwell" (sic) of the left. i've been clowning on these insects since before you were a...sainted prelife in your mother's ovum-potentiate, which carried you as surely as adam carried eve's whatever in his rib, for whatever or something...see atheists, this is just as good as whatever you did with your keyboards. i am d&d 2017
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Mar 15, 2017 05:05
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now you are ready for lf thirdworldism *slowclap* *insert obligatory 13 (600+) year old anime girl being empowered here8 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 15, 2017 05:17
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lf, a terrible forum but the closest sa ever got to greatness look at it now
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Mar 15, 2017 05:19
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You know what, zh1, I like you!
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Mar 15, 2017 05:20
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coyo7e posted:Like on "Black Jeopardy" You have got to be loving kidding me.
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Mar 15, 2017 06:00
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:You have got to be loving kidding me. 
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Mar 15, 2017 06:34
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coyo7e posted:High cortisol (stress indicator) levels have been repeatedly proven to put human beings into a state where they basically make hand-to-mouth decisions http://www.pnas.org/content/111/9/3608.full.pdf "we raised cortisol levels in volunteers ... and found that participants became more risk-averse" http://www.nature.com/articles/srep11206 "cortisol ... shifted investment towards riskier assets" I don't know this field, I just know that on similar topics (neuromodulator effects on behavior), everything is super complicated and nothing ever replicates. So maybe you know of a systematic meta-analysis. Shbobdb posted:You know what, zh1, I like you! zh1 posted:lf, a terrible forum but the closest sa ever got to greatness
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Mar 15, 2017 14:54
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Crossposting from another thread because it's about a (former?) leftist's take on religion:NikkolasKing posted:Yep, a favorite quote of mine from him. He was always consistent in championing the rights of women. The Quran has a few passages where people ask Mohammed to show them miracles, and he, frustrated, points at the heavens and goes: at night it is dark so you can sleep, but there are still stars so you can maneuver at sea. The rain falls to nourish the crops. The mighty winds roar. To those whose hearts aren't closed already, these are clear signs. (This works better if you assume salvation depends on doing good deeds and avoiding sinful ones, ignoring good deeds like pilgrimage to mecca. Doesn't work so well if you're a Lutheran I guess.) However, I think the strongest, most consistent response a religious person can bring to this is to simply point to God's incomprehensibility. It doesn't seem just to you. Well, your mind is not the arbiter of justice. God's mind, however, is. So the fundamental incompatibility here is that leftism typically values, often above all others, the material well-being of the many. Joy in this world. Not starving to death. Not seeing your children die before you. I think if you accept that this is of tremendous importance, not all religion becomes impossible for you, but a lot, maybe even most, do. (This is I think somewhat different, although related, to the theodizee.)
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Mar 15, 2017 15:32
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Cingulate posted:Crossposting from another thread because it's about a (former?) leftist's take on religion: A very intriguing response, thank you. I have the utmost respect for people who can do this. To have such unwavering, unbreakable faith is a virtue I have never been able to possess, which is part of why I'm agnostic. If a monk or nun or priest can give everything in this life to pursue enlightenment or salvation or whatever, that is amazing and commendable. But my "Leftist sensibilities" hold me back, as well as well as various personality flaws.
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Mar 15, 2017 15:44
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NikkolasKing posted:as well as well as various personality flaws. 
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Mar 15, 2017 15:49
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zh1 posted:lf, a terrible forum but the closest sa ever got to greatness but was it sacred?
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Mar 15, 2017 15:54
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Cingulate posted:However, I think the strongest, most consistent response a religious person can bring to this is to simply point to God's incomprehensibility. It doesn't seem just to you. Well, your mind is not the arbiter of justice. God's mind, however, is. So what does this incomprehensibility have to offer? The original argument was that religion 1) Provided a moral framework 2) provided community and 3) Is hedonic. Now it's "religion is weird and incomprehensible and at odds with life as lived." What does religion have to offer?
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Mar 15, 2017 17:21
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Michael Jackson posted:but was it sacred? "LF: The Secular as Sacred" by SA poster Humphrey Fingerbanger is a very short, almost pamphlet sized text. Despite that, it's had a profound impact on how we contextualize LF and almost all discussions about LF, excepting those purely focused on historical aspects of the school, will reference it in some way. "With superb faithfulness to the site, Fingerbanger discerns the deepest meaning of the thought of LF and, paradoxically, its application to our own time. This is another beautiful book from one of our most perceptive thinkers." -- Robot In Shallah
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Mar 15, 2017 17:26
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A big flaming stink posted:would it be gauche to point out that the scientific method is literally based on an article of faith? The difference being where scientists say "We don't know that yet" and demand evidence versus faith that just says "God did it, and don't question it" 
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Mar 15, 2017 17:41
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Shbobdb posted:So what does this incomprehensibility have to offer? The original argument was that religion 1) Provided a moral framework 2) provided community and 3) Is hedonic. Now it's "religion is weird and incomprehensible and at odds with life as lived." What does religion have to offer? If you can understand this argument intellectually, but don't see how anybody could believe it, consider: have you ever had an experience of the sublime? (If not, you're missing out.) I should make clear that many, probably most, religious people would not make this argument, although I think it is a good one.
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Mar 15, 2017 17:51
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I was using "us" as in the "the left". I don't see religion as having any political utility outside of using minority churches to organize voters. The fact that churches also seem to indoctrinate people against the left and result in more reactionary voters is also a strike against it. That's been my point: the left isn't hostile to religion, religion is hostile to the left. Who care about what an individual believes? That's not at all what I'm talking about nor is it my concern.
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Mar 15, 2017 18:01
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Shbobdb posted:I was using "us"
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Mar 15, 2017 18:15
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zh1 posted:Uh He Was The CHRIST you Guys, He was a Undeniable Religiousulilty MAN who Did a Fing...Now You Gonna Tell Me Other poo poo?? For OTHER REASON? What the fucka you fucka you gonna fucka you gonna fucka a hrer er ermmmennn....*Mashes d&d post button like a BAUS* Shbobdb posted:This is a good post and would have been a great post once upon a time. Anyway Jesus Christ is real and religion gives you fulfillment as well as a reason for helping people and improving yourself.  Also capitalism is bad and christian socialism exists.CommieGIR posted:The difference being where scientists say "We don't know that yet" and demand evidence versus faith that just says "God did it, and don't question it" Actually reading the poster you quoted in context I have no idea what he was trying to say. But the fact remains that you cannot prove the scientific method using the scientific method, for obvious reasons. Science is the use of the scientific method and philosophy is what then defines what science is or at least should be. Saying it's based on "faith" is perhaps wrong, but it's not based on any "objective, scientific" fact. So it's not based on evidence, at least. magnavox space odyssey fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 22:34
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magnavox space odyssey posted:Also religion, at least modern religion, is not used to explain the natural world, despite what creationists would have you believe.
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Mar 15, 2017 22:40
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magnavox space odyssey posted:I think, and I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think this is a horribly false view of theology. Also religion, at least modern religion, is not used to explain the natural world, despite what creationists would have you believe. It's more to do with morals, at least as far as I remember mass.  Then its being addressed at those who do use it as a way to explain the natural world. People like Senator Inhofe who uses religion as proof Climate Change cannot be real, and others like him. Or people like Ken Hamm, who do real damage to science education through faithful ignorance.magnavox space odyssey posted:Actually reading the poster you quoted in context I have no idea what he was trying to say. But the fact remains that you cannot prove the scientific method using the scientific method, for obvious reasons. magnavox space odyssey posted:Science is the use of the scientific method and philosophy is what then defines what science is or at least should be. Saying it's based on "faith" is perhaps wrong, but it's not based on any "objective, scientific" fact. magnavox space odyssey posted:Saying it's based on "faith" is perhaps wrong, but it's not based on any "objective, scientific" fact. So it's not based on evidence, at least. Cingulate posted:Creationism is a very modern phenomenon, isn't it? CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 22:43
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Cingulate posted:Creationism is a very modern phenomenon, isn't it? CommieGIR posted:No offense, his is an incredibly igorant statement. The Scientific Method is not a thing or a material object. Its a system. Of course you can't prove it, do you even understand what you are claiming by saying that? Also the scientific method is very intangible, given that it's a method. It's not faith but oh well. You'll have to excuse me for the following blunt question as well, but I couldn't really be bothered to read after the first three pages of some guy being incredibly insane about something: did you all figure out whether leftist ideologies are hostile to religion or not? What brough upon this derail on whether Jesus Christ or God are real and also Science?
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Mar 15, 2017 22:51
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