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The bizarre thing is how living space m2/per person in Stockholm is among the highest in Europe... just feeding the city more housing won't solve this problem (considering supply is technically quite high...). A totally stagnated rental market is a huge part of the problem which is affecting the property market. Its almost impossible to get a hold of a proper rental contract. The turnover is abysmal, no one is willing to let go of a regulated contract as the rent rebate is the equivalent cold hard cash. Some people would rather keep a place empty than loose the contract (just in caaase...). Otoh just removing the rent regulation overnight would be a clusterfuck, but there has gotta be a better compromise to get the some turnover and freeing up rental apartments.
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Mar 15, 2017 20:42
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Threadkiller Dog posted:The bizarre thing is how living space m2/per person in Stockholm is among the highest in Europe... just feeding the city more housing won't solve this problem (considering supply is technically quite high...). It wouldn't help the situation. The same people who get locked out of condos today due to the steep capital requirements would fail to get the unregulated rental properties (which do already exist in Sweden since any new or renovated property effectively lacks rent-control) because they instead have prohibitive income requirements. I'd still have to wait 5-12 years to get an apartment, only now I would get robbed by speculators on the rental front too. The rental problem is not a fault of pricing, it's all supply. All de-regulating the market would accomplish is pricing even more people out. Other countries have already tried this, it never works. It also bears mentioning that supply is the long-term solution to the lack of housing but nothing short of a market correction (read: Price collapse) is fixing the current pricing dilemma in the private market which is fueled by rapidly increasing household debt and overly generous subsidies.
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Mar 15, 2017 22:21
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Threadkiller Dog posted:Some people would rather keep a place empty than loose the contract (just in caaase...). e: drat, I think I misunderstood your post
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Mar 15, 2017 22:31
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Rexides posted:e: drat, I think I misunderstood your post Well i spelled lose "loose" so who knows what I was thinking  MiddleOne posted:It wouldn't help the situation. The same people who get locked out of condos today due to the steep capital requirements would fail to get the unregulated rental properties (which do already exist in Sweden since any new or renovated property effectively lacks rent-control) because they instead have prohibitive income requirements. I'd still have to wait 5-12 years to get an apartment, only now I would get robbed by speculators on the rental front too. The rental problem is not a fault of pricing, it's all supply. All de-regulating the market would accomplish is pricing even more people out. Other countries have already tried this, it never works. I agree there is a lot of madness in this market that only a correction will resolve. So just de-regulating everything would just spread that madness to the rental market in its entirety. But as you say there are some rentals that skirt the edge of "market" rates - whatever they actually are. The problem is that these more expensive rentals are such a small part of the available stock, and even if they were close to market rates they are still not available for renters in any reasonable or dynamic way. You need to queue essentially.. Because of that the choice most people are met with is simply buy or bust - only by buying do you have any real agency in how/where to live. So renting isnt even a real option for most people moving in, and they are forced to enter the property market instead. (IIRC new apartments are still "lightly" rent controlled, enough so that they are still quite popular. Those built by the public housing corps in Stockholm actually have no significant income requirements (used to be max 1/3 of gross income, now you just need 5k sek after rent is paid essentially). Suffice to say they are quite popular. I think maybe the Djurgårdsstaden ones are hitting rates where people might balk.... maybe, because the houses are far from empty.) So i guess we need lots more expensive rentals! Much more. Hell, decouple them from rent control entirely to incentivize. Let the builders take the risk. Threadkiller Dog fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 23:15
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Got 12 years in the municipal housing queue in Stockholm. Another 12 and I'll have that juice two room apartment in Årsta that I crave.
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Mar 15, 2017 23:34
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You should just start another Miljonprogrammet and avoid the mistakes of the last one.
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Mar 15, 2017 23:36
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Cerebral Bore posted:You should just start another Miljonprogrammet and avoid the mistakes of the last one.
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Mar 15, 2017 23:39
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Collateral Damage posted:Copy-paste Vasastan onto Gärdet.
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Mar 15, 2017 23:41
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In case anyone missed it; In danish news, a vile hag celebrated refusing refugees from war-torn countries asylum and help with cake (wars Denmark helped start and perpetuate of course). Denmark really is Scandinavians racists rear end in a top hat
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Mar 16, 2017 09:42
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Cerebral Bore posted:You should just start another Miljonprogrammet and avoid the mistakes of the last one.
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Mar 16, 2017 09:44
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Cerebral Bore posted:You should just start another Miljonprogrammet and avoid the mistakes of the last one. That would require politicians to learn from history.
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Mar 16, 2017 10:05
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Cardiac posted:That would require politicians to learn from history. Well with miljonprogrammet that list is pretty short though as it was a resounding success except for the one big thing. "Don't cluster high-density low-income residential towers you loving idiots".
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Mar 16, 2017 10:12
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Threadkiller Dog posted:The bizarre thing is how living space m2/per person in Stockholm is among the highest in Europe... just feeding the city more housing won't solve this problem (considering supply is technically quite high...).
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Mar 16, 2017 11:19
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MiddleOne posted:Well with miljonprogrammet that list is pretty short though as it was a resounding success except for the one big thing. "Don't cluster high-density low-income residential towers you loving idiots". Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time...... 
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Mar 16, 2017 12:13
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Cardiac posted:Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time...... It's staggering how many poor political decisions in Swedish politics that can be connected to politicians just doing what was trendy in the US at the time. Especially in urban planning.
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Mar 16, 2017 13:11
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evil_bunnY posted:Also, rent-control reduction historically solves fuckall, it just puts more money in landlord's pockets And makes the housing market even more speculative.
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Mar 16, 2017 13:13
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Rexides posted:And makes the housing market even more speculative. Yeah, we're already seeing it with stock-owned housing companies leveraging themselves to buy up lovely apartments in places like Rinkeby from allmännyttan, 'renovating them'* and the putting them back on the market with a rate 2-3 times as high. Without rental controls the rental markets becomes just as speculative as the condo market. *In the most minimalist manner the law will allow
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Mar 16, 2017 13:22
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Cardiac posted:Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time...... quote:Att lyfta upp gatans nivå över Drottninggatan och Vasagatan samt breddningen av den samma innebar att all bebyggelse längs gatan måste rivas och skulle ersättas med ett pärlband av parkeringshus på sydsidan och fem tjocka punkthus på norra sidan. 
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Mar 16, 2017 13:24
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evil_bunnY posted:Wait what. Can you show your sources? Also, rent-control reduction historically solves fuckall, it just puts more money in landlord's pockets (so more downstream negatives and inequality effects). Average living space/person in Sweden is 44m2 IIRC, which is among the highest in Europe. I remember seeing a list comparing European capitals, but all i can find now is this angry cornucopia post FWIW. Eurostat has some decent data though. Figure 4 there shows an average per country and some cities, Stockholm among them. I guess my point is that we probably dont have a housing shortage objectively speaking. But we do have high standards and a ton of single households that are willing to pay a lot of money to keep it that way. Or in the case of rent control, not so much money. E:fixed eurostat link i think Threadkiller Dog fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 13:28
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Threadkiller Dog posted:Average living space/person in Sweden is 44m2 IIRC, which is among the highest in Europe. I remember seeing a list comparing European capitals, but all i can find now is this angry cornucopia post FWIW. You can't generalize. Sweden has one of the highest urbanisation rates in the modern world with Gothenburg and Stockholm both being record cities. It doesn't matter if there are a lot of big houses in the suburbs when all of the jobs and studying opportunities create a demand for small apartments. Flatsharing and overcrowding is very common in Stockholm because the only way to move into Stockholm without at least 300k in your pocket is by moving in with somebody else. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 13:31
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MiddleOne posted:You can't generalize. Sweden has one of the highest urbanisation rates in the modern world with Gothenburg and Stockholm both being record cities. It doesn't matter if there are a lot of big houses in the suburbs when all of the jobs and studying opportunities create a demand for small apartments. Flatsharing and overcrowding is very common in Stockholm because the only way to move into Stockholm without at least 300k in your pocket is by moving in with somebody else. Yeah, but the interesting fact there is that the average in Stockholm is still 36 or 40 m2 depending on the source, which is actually kinda high. And Stockholm taken on its own isnt such a special snowflake. Its not like other cities dont have their own sprawly suburbs. E: regarding flat shares. There is obviously a living space segregation problem here. A friend rents a room for 4k/m in Solna. My granny has 100m2 for herself on Söder for 7k/m... Threadkiller Dog fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 13:39
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Threadkiller Dog posted:Average living space/person in Sweden is 44m2 IIRC, which is among the highest in Europe. I remember seeing a list comparing European capitals, but all i can find now is this angry cornucopia post FWIW. Part of the housing shortage is also due to the inefficiencies in relocation. I am sure a lot of you have parents who live in houses, where they have more space than needed and it could be a good idea to move to something smaller. In my parents case, there is virtually no economic point in moving since a apartment/small house is on the same price level or above as their own house + increased maintenance cost in the case of apartments. They have virtually no mortgage left (thanks 80s inflation), so anything new would become more expensive.
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Mar 16, 2017 14:05
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Threadkiller Dog posted:Yeah, but the interesting fact there is that the average in Stockholm is still 36 or 40 m2 depending on the source, which is actually kinda high. And Stockholm taken on its own isnt such a special snowflake. Its not like other cities dont have their own sprawly suburbs. Considering the enormous demand for black market contracts in Stockholm, is that somehow taken into consideration? Because a tentant without a contract wouldn't show up otherwise.
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Mar 16, 2017 15:05
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I don't suppose it would help if they cracked down on assholes renting places purely to rent it on to someone else to make a profit?
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Mar 16, 2017 15:14
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Poil posted:I don't suppose it would help if they cracked down on assholes renting places purely to rent it on to someone else to make a profit? All Landlords Are Bastards, so yes, it would.
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Mar 16, 2017 15:15
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To be on the safe side, just copy-paste Råsunda onto Hagaparken too. Make Kungliga Slottet student corridors.
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Mar 16, 2017 16:39
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so that means I can be a cheapskate and post about posting instead of having some wit or spending any more on comedy avs for people. Which I'm also incapable of. Comedy.
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The big problem with the million program and others like it that they were built like satellite communities instead of letting the city grow organically from the core, which leads to a very lopsided development, with densisty going from HIGH to LOW to HIGH again. For example, southbound from Gullmarsplan there is an industrial zone next to the water, and then a smattering of villas and low density housing surrounded by nothing dot the landscape, all the way too around Farsta where density suddenly shoots up again... It's like the core of the city just stops at the southern bridge from Södermalm for no apparent reason.
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Mar 16, 2017 17:47
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Svartvit posted:Considering the enormous demand for black market contracts in Stockholm, is that somehow taken into consideration? Because a tentant without a contract wouldn't show up otherwise. It is definitely possible. The figures seem to be from SCB and use the tax residence and property databases... and sure its common enough that people are registered in one place and live in another. OTOH in the cases i know of they are still residing in the same metro at least. Being registered in stockholm also has huge tax advantages though so im pretty sure most people who could, would.  Just speculating here. Now, undocumented residents and immigrants are another matter. But i think most european cities have their fair share, probably more so than Stockholm. Threadkiller Dog fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 21:09
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That Gärdet just sits there empty and useless because it's owned by monarchs or something is screwed up on so many levels. DO SOMETHING!!! It's EMPTY!!
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Mar 16, 2017 22:58
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von Braun posted:That Gärdet just sits there empty and useless because it's owned by monarchs or something is screwed up on so many levels. DO SOMETHING!!! It's EMPTY!! Norra Djurgården is just as bad. We have a student housing crisis in Stockholm while there are acres of unused grassland literally next to Stockholm University. That no one is pressuring the royal family about this at the state level is loving mindblowing to me. Like the land is right there and it's not being used for anything. At least Kungliga Djurgården has the justification of being an actual maintained park.
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Mar 17, 2017 09:33
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MiddleOne posted:Norra Djurgården is just as bad. We have a student housing crisis in Stockholm while there are acres of unused grassland literally next to Stockholm University. That no one is pressuring the royal family about this at the state level is loving mindblowing to me. Like the land is right there and it's not being used for anything. At least Kungliga Djurgården has the justification of being an actual maintained park. Eh, in case you haven't noted. No one gives a gently caress about students.
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Mar 17, 2017 09:53
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I'm pretty sure the current state of affairs is that no one cares about anyone without several hundreds of thousands of kronas in cash irregardless of age or occupation.
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Mar 17, 2017 09:58
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Both Gärdet and Norra Djurgården are part of the same problem - Nationalstadsparken. 2700 hectares of land right up against the edge of the city sitting unused and unbuildable because the king said so. https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kungliga_nationalstadsparken Threadkiller Dog posted:Gärdet delenda est Collateral Damage fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Mar 17, 2017 |
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Mar 17, 2017 10:01
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MiddleOne posted:Norra Djurgården is just as bad. We have a student housing crisis in Stockholm while there are acres of unused grassland literally next to Stockholm University. That no one is pressuring the royal family about this at the state level is loving mindblowing to me. Like the land is right there and it's not being used for anything. At least Kungliga Djurgården has the justification of being an actual maintained park. Yeah, it's unbelievable. The Royal familiy hasn't been relevant for centuries but their word about the extremely windy Gärdet and Djurgården for some reason is law. It's all so frustrating since it's not gonna turn the place into the sink hole Slussen looks like now if they start building.
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Mar 17, 2017 10:19
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von Braun posted:Yeah, it's unbelievable. The Royal familiy hasn't been relevant for centuries but their word about the extremely windy Gärdet and Djurgården for some reason is law. It's all so frustrating since it's not gonna turn the place into the sink hole Slussen looks like now if they start building. Yeah, Slussen under construction is an absolute nightmare to navigate, but that's only because it's connecting currently developed areas, right? It is definitely weird that these random fields that aren't even parks or nature preserves are being held for no other reason than arbitrary royal preference. Kungliga slottet should get converted into mixed-income housing. gently caress 'em!
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Mar 17, 2017 11:02
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Imagine how ugly the area would have been if they started to build there like in the 60s or something though.
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Mar 17, 2017 11:02
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Neeksy posted:Yeah, Slussen under construction is an absolute nightmare to navigate, but that's only because it's connecting currently developed areas, right? It is definitely weird that these random fields that aren't even parks or nature preserves are being held for no other reason than arbitrary royal preference. Kungliga slottet should get converted into mixed-income housing. gently caress 'em! Slottet is also just a waste of space. Definitely make it into apartments. Like Zlatan did with a church.
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Mar 17, 2017 11:12
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Fox Cunning posted:Imagine how ugly the area would have been if they started to build there like in the 60s or something though. We're not talking the park-parts here, we're talking literal fields of grass. No trees, no flowers, no art, no fountains, no animals, no nothing. Even ugly housing would be an improvement.
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Mar 17, 2017 11:12
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But if you build over Gärdet then Stockholmare will have to cross the tullarna to go to open air festivals!
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Mar 17, 2017 11:53
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Rexides posted:But if you build over Gärdet then Stockholmare will have to cross the tullarna to go to open air festivals! When was there a festival there last? I only know Kentfest
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Mar 17, 2017 12:06
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