Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
bloodychill
May 8, 2004

And if the world
should end tonight,
I had a crazy, classic life
Exciting Lemon
Her face is indeed tired.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

lets hang out
Jan 10, 2015

https://my.mixtape.moe/ywwoto.webm

oddium
Feb 21, 2006

end of the 4.5 tatami age

script notes: [trigger tired face animation here]

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.

lets hang out posted:

(Yoko Taro vid)

Oh, which Mass Effect Andromeda character is that supposed to be?

Guy Mann
Mar 28, 2016

by Lowtax
It must be really depressing to work at Bioware and spend so much time and effort on waifu/husbando bait only to be greeted with derisive mockery while your target audience lusts after a giant talking fish in a Nintendo game instead.

Help Im Alive
Nov 8, 2009

VideoGames posted:

The "5Grade; Video Games Reviews video games" score system is a simple way of breaking games down into a number, which satisfies people's minds, with a more accurate result rather than marks out of ten or one hundred.

The G stands for one of the following words:
Gahh. (bad)
Gratifying. (fine)
Good. (good.)
Great. (really, really good.)
Greatest. (excellent fun and a favourite!)

G1, G2, G3, G4, G5.

The f stands for Fun Factor, with 1 being the lowest and 5 being the highest. This allows for some games to be good but didn't give me much fun and some games to be bad but a heck of a lot of fun! It's all highly subjective to myself, but I feel has slightly more leeway than percents and all that.

c-couldn't you just add the two numbers together for a /10 rating

Macaluso
Sep 23, 2005

I HATE THAT HEDGEHOG, BROTHER!

Guy Mann posted:

It must be really depressing to work at Bioware and spend so much time and effort on waifu/husbando bait only to be greeted with derisive mockery while your target audience lusts after a giant talking fish in a Nintendo game instead.

If they partnered with Nintendo on the new Mass Effect and added Bowser as a romance option they'd probably win game of the year

oddium
Feb 21, 2006

end of the 4.5 tatami age

Help Im Alive posted:

c-couldn't you just add the two numbers together for a /10 rating

hmm i don't think me2 deserves a 4. 6 at most

Lobok
Jul 13, 2006

Say Watt?

Macaluso posted:

If they partnered with Nintendo on the new Mass Effect and added Bowser as a romance option they'd probably win game of the year

Super Mario Galaxy RPG

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

Replace the characters in Mass Effect with the ones from Paper Mario and we'll finally have a 11/10 game

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

Hey, uh, Bioware: if a huge portion of your game is going to involve staring at people's faces while you talk to them, maybe put as much work and resources into it as necessary to make sure it's not going to suck to do that?

I know that poo poo's hard. I get that. I bet it's like an order of magnitude harder than I think it is, and I think it's probably really loving hard. But you've done it before. I mean, the faces in Dragon Age: Inquisition were fine. Why couldn't they just reuse whatever tech they used for that? Use Inquisition face creator for humans and asari, too, that'd be fine.

I'm well aware there are always going to be bugs in an early access thing and maybe they've got a day one or slightly later patch that'll fix things like the weird walking animation glitches and NPCs holding their guns backwards in cutscenes and stuff. And honestly, I don't expect competent cutscene direction from Bioware at all, so things like Peebee shooting her gun and the other person not even reacting as the shot whizzes past their head, okay, fine, that's just par for the course from Bioware. But the loving faces, the thing you're gonna spend like 50% of the game staring at, Bioware couldn't get that right, or at least "not awful?"

At least the less-humanoid races aren't terrible, but it's not like we have a huge curve to get over when it comes to how realistic a krogan's facial animation is anyway.

corn in the bible
Jun 5, 2004

Oh no oh god it's all true!

Jay Rust posted:

What's a good game that isn't fun?

Kane and Lynch 2

suuma
Apr 2, 2009
I played the hell out of ME1-3 and I can't even tell which character is the player character in these ME:A videos because even the player character looks as low-effort as a random Citadel human.

e: I mean the PC in 1-3 stand out, regardless of what you make them look like.

VideoGames
Aug 18, 2003

Help Im Alive posted:

c-couldn't you just add the two numbers together for a /10 rating

Not really. Some games are fun but bad. For example, I played bad rats after being gifted it and it is a bad game, but gosh did I have fun playing such a bad game.

Dr Cheeto
Mar 2, 2013
Wretched Harp
I always really liked Remember Me but I know it's a deeply flawed, possibly bad game, and now I've got a way to express that using numbers

tap my mountain
Jan 1, 2009

I'm the quick and the deadly

Jay Rust posted:

What's a good game that isn't fun?

Every Suda51 game except NMH

Healbot
Jul 7, 2006

very very very fucjable
very vywr very


Macaluso posted:

If they partnered with Nintendo on the new Mass Effect and added Bowser as a romance option they'd probably win game of the year

Bioware would mess up and probably lose another set of music, replacing it with random keystrokes on a virtual keyboard.

They are gonna name it Super Mario: Yet another Chronicle of the Dark Brotherhood Origins.

bloodychill
May 8, 2004

And if the world
should end tonight,
I had a crazy, classic life
Exciting Lemon
Princess Peach fighting to save the kingdom and having romance options with Mario, Luigi, Toad, Daisy, and Bowser sounds pretty awesome

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.
My bad hot take: A game that you enjoy is a good game. A game that you don't is a bad game. There's no "objectively good game" or "objectively bad game" lurking in the code, waiting to be uncovered. I know a couple of people who think universally praised games suck rear end, and people who get genuine joy from (what I considered to be) complete black holes of garbage. And they aren't pretending.

Having said that, score games however you want. A review is only useful in the sense that it illuminates and challenges the reader, so if you're good at explaining your thoughts on what works and what doesn't, that's more important than picking the correct types of numbers.

Edit: I've been inoculated against any interest in Mass Effect by the powerful combination of the bad ending of ME3 and the extremely good Horizon Zero Dawn and Nier Automata being released.

Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Mar 16, 2017

The 7th Guest
Dec 17, 2003

this looks good there needs to be more Ghosts n Goblins alikes than just maldita castilla

http://store.steampowered.com/app/603930/

also it's by the dev of Insaity Blade which was a pretty authentic rastan style game

corn in the bible
Jun 5, 2004

Oh no oh god it's all true!

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

My bad hot take: A game that you enjoy is a good game. A game that you don't is a bad game. There's no "objectively good game" or "objectively bad game" lurking in the code, waiting to be uncovered. I know a couple of people who think universally praised games suck rear end, and people who get genuine joy from (what I considered to be) complete black holes of garbage. And they aren't pretending.

Having said that, score games however you want. A review is only useful in the sense that it illuminates and challenges the reader, so if you're good at explaining your thoughts on what works and what doesn't, that's more important than picking the correct types of numbers.

Edit: I've been inoculated against any interest in Mass Effect by the powerful combination of the bad ending of ME3 and the extremely good Horizon Zero Dawn and Nier Automata being released.

Spec Ops The Line wasn't fun but it was good

Looper
Mar 1, 2012

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

My bad hot take: A game that you enjoy is a good game. A game that you don't is a bad game. There's no "objectively good game" or "objectively bad game" lurking in the code, waiting to be uncovered. I know a couple of people who think universally praised games suck rear end, and people who get genuine joy from (what I considered to be) complete black holes of garbage. And they aren't pretending.

Having said that, score games however you want. A review is only useful in the sense that it illuminates and challenges the reader, so if you're good at explaining your thoughts on what works and what doesn't, that's more important than picking the correct types of numbers.

Edit: I've been inoculated against any interest in Mass Effect by the powerful combination of the bad ending of ME3 and the extremely good Horizon Zero Dawn and Nier Automata being released.


you can have subjective tastes while also trying to objectively evaluate and critique something

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

My bad hot take: A game that you enjoy is a good game. A game that you don't is a bad game.

That makes no sense to me. I don't enjoy wrestling games at all but that doesn't mean all wrestling games are bad and I wouldn't ever say they are.

Like even if you don't personally enjoy a game to think literally every game you don't enjoy is bad is weird not in the least because nobody likes every genre and there's nothing wrong with that. I'd rightly laugh at someone who went "You know, Undertale is bad, it doesn't have enough shotguns" or "DOOM 2016 is bad because I can't befriend the monsters."

Jay Rust
Sep 27, 2011

oddium posted:

ah good news they're rebooting Darkplace as Darkspace

https://twitter.com/etdragonpunch/status/842239459928166400

I think there's a codex entry that describes how there's this nervous disease that affects people's faces, causing twitching or rubbery creases, or sometimes paralyzingly the facial muscles outright. Pretty cool!

Monkey Fracas
Sep 11, 2010

...but then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you!
Grimey Drawer

ImpAtom posted:

"You know, Undertale is bad, it doesn't have enough shotguns" or "DOOM 2016 is bad because I can't befriend the monsters."

Now that you mention it...

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

It's hard for me to explain, probably because I'm not a professional reviewer or anything, but I do think there are qualities that make a game good or less good independent of an individual player's enjoyment of it. I think that's true for any art or piece of entertainment. Sometimes there are movies, shows, games, or books that I don't personally enjoy but I can recognize are good for other reasons. I'm not into horror movies but having watched The Babadook, I can say both a) I didn't really derive any enjoyment out of it and I wouldn't watch it again, and b) I think it's a very well-made and creepy horror movie and is therefore good. I think there's such a thing as good game design, good writing, good aesthetic design, all of that, and a person's experience of those things are definitely subject to the viewer/reader/player/whatever's taste, I think that there's more to it than that.

I'd never set down to try to generate a list of what makes a game good or bad, though, because I don't think I've done nearly enough writing on games or even playing of games to come up with an educated version of one.

And I'm intentionally avoiding the word "objective" here because I think the terms "objective" and "subjective" are misleading when it comes to a game's qualities. I'd rather separate a game's qualities into those inherent in the game (things that might be considered "objective") and things that come out in the player's experience of those qualities put together (things that might be considered "subjective")--it's almost the same, but I don't think it divides quite along the same lines. It's why I can run down a meticulously detailed list of all the faults in Dark Souls but, if I were scoring it on a numerical scale, I'd still score it drat near the top because the overall combination of all of the game's qualities is way better than the game would look if I just listed out its "good" and "bad" parts.

Anyway I agree with everyone who says numerical scores are dumb because, even though I don't think they're inherently bad, I think they don't do a very good job of communicating meaning to the audience who reads game reviews. While I think it's reasonable to score games on a numerical scale, the people you're trying to communicate with have such wildly varying personal readings of numerical scores that, even with a well-written and consistent scoring policy, it's hard to know how people will read your 8.5/10 score, even if you know that means "very good."

Everyone should follow Eurogamer's example and ditch numerical scores and go with much broader categories instead.

Harrow fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Mar 16, 2017

tap my mountain
Jan 1, 2009

I'm the quick and the deadly

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

My bad hot take: A game that you enjoy is a good game. A game that you don't is a bad game. There's no "objectively good game" or "objectively bad game" lurking in the code, waiting to be uncovered. I know a couple of people who think universally praised games suck rear end, and people who get genuine joy from (what I considered to be) complete black holes of garbage. And they aren't pretending.

Having said that, score games however you want. A review is only useful in the sense that it illuminates and challenges the reader, so if you're good at explaining your thoughts on what works and what doesn't, that's more important than picking the correct types of numbers.

Edit: I've been inoculated against any interest in Mass Effect by the powerful combination of the bad ending of ME3 and the extremely good Horizon Zero Dawn and Nier Automata being released.

I think a game can be subjectively bad while still fun. A good example is the Bionic Commando reboot, the core gameplay is incredibly fun, but the level design is very restrictive, there's not much enemy variety and the story is notoriously bad. It's a fun game but its wrapped up in poop.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.

ImpAtom posted:

Like even if you don't personally enjoy a game to think literally every game you don't enjoy is bad is weird not in the least because nobody likes every genre and there's nothing wrong with that. I'd rightly laugh at someone who went "You know, Undertale is bad, it doesn't have enough shotguns" or "DOOM 2016 is bad because I can't befriend the monsters."

You should laugh at them, those are pretty useless critiques. It still doesn't mean that Doom or UnderTale are "objectively good games".

In Training
Jun 28, 2008

Dr Cheeto posted:

I always really liked Remember Me but I know it's a deeply flawed, possibly bad game, and now I've got a way to express that using numbers

They took out all the combat and made Life is Strange at least so we got something cool out of the attempt

The 7th Guest
Dec 17, 2003

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005

Clapping Larry

Harrow posted:

I'm not into horror movies but having watched The Babadook, I can say both a) I didn't really derive any enjoyment out of it and I wouldn't watch it again, and b) I think it's a very well-made and creepy horror movie and is therefore good.
No Country For Old Men is one of my least favorite movies of all time despite being an extraordinarily well made film in just about every category.

Dr Cheeto
Mar 2, 2013
Wretched Harp
Surely there is a piece of media which you enjoy but do not consider "good" and would not recommend to your friends or strangers on the internet.

DLC Inc
Jun 1, 2011

ImpAtom posted:

That makes no sense to me. I don't enjoy wrestling games at all but that doesn't mean all wrestling games are bad and I wouldn't ever say they are.

Like even if you don't personally enjoy a game to think literally every game you don't enjoy is bad is weird not in the least because nobody likes every genre and there's nothing wrong with that. I'd rightly laugh at someone who went "You know, Undertale is bad, it doesn't have enough shotguns" or "DOOM 2016 is bad because I can't befriend the monsters."

the 2k games are objectively horrible though but you can have fun with them trying to make monstrosities and constantly glitching I suppose

The 7th Guest
Dec 17, 2003

Dr Cheeto posted:

Surely there is a piece of media which you enjoy but do not consider "good" and would not recommend to your friends or strangers on the internet.
FEAR 3

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

Nate RFB posted:

No Country For Old Men is one of my least favorite movies of all time despite being an extraordinarily well made film in just about every category.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Meanwhile I really love that movie--I love getting lost in its atmosphere and watching the nuanced performances and the weird little characterization and plot machinations that lead everything to its horrible conclusion. But it's sure as poo poo not for everyone and that doesn't make it any less good.

Looper
Mar 1, 2012

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

You should laugh at them, those are pretty useless critiques. It still doesn't mean that Doom or UnderTale are "objectively good games".

i think you'll reconsider after reading my marxist analysis of both

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

You should laugh at them, those are pretty useless critiques. It still doesn't mean that Doom or UnderTale are "objectively good games".

That doesn't have anything to do with the comment that a game you dislike is bad though. There's a lot of room to discuss design and mechanics and graphics and general stability and plot execution and even if you don't agree with one or all of those you can discuss it rather than going "I like/dislike something so it's good/bad!" I know people who genuinely enjoyed Sonic 2006 but wouldn't be dumb enough to say that it's good because they liked it because even if you enjoy 2006 you can admit it's poorly optimized, glitchy and has a storyline revolving around hedgehog/human love. (The last of which may or may not be a flaw if you're someone who is into that but whatevs.)

There's no Objective Perfect Game but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of room to discuss what something does well or poorly even if you personally don't enjoy what it does well or think it does something poorly but it hits the right mental spot for you anyway.

MinibarMatchman posted:

the 2k games are objectively horrible though but you can have fun with them trying to make monstrosities and constantly glitching I suppose

Oh, I'm sure, I just meant in general. There are super-lovely wrestling games out there for sure.


Yeah, actually, I agree with this.

oddium
Feb 21, 2006

end of the 4.5 tatami age

the objectively perfect game is mgs3. thank you for reading

tap my mountain
Jan 1, 2009

I'm the quick and the deadly
MGS3 is often regarded as the best one in the series but it's also the least fun, at least for me

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

One problem with numerical review scores is that they project the sort of "objectivity" that I think a lot of video game nerds (honestly, I can't think of a better word for the kind of person I'm talking about) think that a review must have. It's why people see Breath of the Wild getting 10/10 scores and go, "But it's clearly not perfect, so that score is dishonest!"

If you have broad categories like Eurogamer does--Essential, Recommended, Avoid, and games in the middle that don't have a strong recommendation one way or the other--you have a ton more leeway. It's clearer that "Essential" means that a game, on the whole, is a great experience that the reviewer recommends everyone play regardless of any of the game's "objective" faults. Even if your outlet treats a 10/10 score as exactly that, which Polygon does (as they state in their review policy), the numbers send a message straight to the nerd-brain that says, "This is purporting to be objective."

  • Locked thread