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Another question while I am considering my options. Would it almost be better to have multiple smaller tankless water heaters (3 gpm or so) for each area (2 bathrooms and the kitchen) than one big central one? The house is fairly large, but all the plumbing is kept to the back side (bathrooms on top of each other, etc). I might even look at one for the bathrooms and one for the kitchen. Would that be going too small?
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Mar 14, 2017 03:10
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Can you do all the work yourself? Smaller units are fine and all but most houses aren't plumbed for them so it gets real expensive real quick. I will continue to be a fat advocate for the newer/newish high-efficency/recovery tanked units for almost all residential circumstances.
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Mar 14, 2017 03:53
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Jadunk posted:Can you do all the work yourself? Smaller units are fine and all but most houses aren't plumbed for them so it gets real expensive real quick. I will continue to be a fat advocate for the newer/newish high-efficency/recovery tanked units for almost all residential circumstances. Most of the house is copper I believe, except for the main after the house shutoff. I already have the tools for pex and would replace with pex. I think there would only be one cold to the heater, and also the electric run. That would probably get an outside breaker to not affect the house, but that is further along in planning. My brother is a HVAC sup, so he had all the tools, and is where I get a lot of my equipment. So overall I don't think it will be incredibly difficult.
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Mar 14, 2017 16:21
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Gothmog1065 posted:Most of the house is copper I believe, except for the main after the house shutoff. I already have the tools for pex and would replace with pex. I think there would only be one cold to the heater, and also the electric run. That would probably get an outside breaker to not affect the house, but that is further along in planning. My brother is a HVAC sup, so he had all the tools, and is where I get a lot of my equipment. So overall I don't think it will be incredibly difficult. How old is this place? Is any electric work grounded to the copper?
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Mar 14, 2017 17:01
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100. I don't know about the grounding, but most of the electric was redone in 1992.
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Mar 14, 2017 18:04
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Gothmog1065 posted:I think there would only be one cold to the heater, and also the electric run. If you're doing multiple units you're going to want to separate the hot water systems currently in place (which are plumbed based on having a single heater) otherwise you could run into weird situations where neither heater will fire because a single faucet isn't pulling enough water through either to start it up. (also just generally you don't want to cross-connect multiple systems like that or else you could get all sorts of weird and/or unpleasant things going on) Also I would have an electrician properly check the grounding before you go swapping out sections of your water line with PEX. That way they can put in the alternate ground in advance of you breaking the protection (probably) offered by the copper.
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Mar 15, 2017 04:24
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Jadunk posted:2 extra 90s after the trap before the vent is very much violating code. Cut the 90 that's currently there off, buy a rambit for that size pipe and drill out the coupling. You will probably be able to just glue a slightly longer piece in and then install your ptrap. As I'm sure you already know, I hate those accordian pieces. Got a socket saver off amazon and cleaned this up today. The rambit/socket saver was much easier to use and nowhere near as intimidating as I thought it'd be. I used a 22.5 deg horizontal bend coming out of the wall, I didn't see any other easy way to make the horizontal run to the drain tail, is this OK? 
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Mar 15, 2017 04:27
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ihop posted:I used a 22.5 deg horizontal bend coming out of the wall, I didn't see any other easy way to make the horizontal run to the drain tail, is this OK? Looks great! As a Californian I'm not sure I'll ever get used to seeing DWVPVC.
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Mar 15, 2017 04:35
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Jadunk posted:Looks great! As a Californian I'm not sure I'll ever get used to seeing DWVPVC. Washington they have started to move towards from ABS. One reason I've heard it's liked it the pipe won't bend or warp in the sun light before you go to use it. (nothing like doing a ground work and trying to work with curved pipe.)
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Mar 15, 2017 05:08
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Yeah, we've been seeing more specs for it outside of the usual government poo poo lately in the SF bay area too. To be honest if you don't let the schmuck at the supplier pick your stick IMO it's easier / faster / better for most poo poo but I wouldn't be surprised if it slowly got phased out in favor of DWVPVC or something else.
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Mar 15, 2017 05:22
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Jadunk posted:If you're doing multiple units you're going to want to separate the hot water systems currently in place (which are plumbed based on having a single heater) otherwise you could run into weird situations where neither heater will fire because a single faucet isn't pulling enough water through either to start it up. (also just generally you don't want to cross-connect multiple systems like that or else you could get all sorts of weird and/or unpleasant things going on) Also I would have an electrician properly check the grounding before you go swapping out sections of your water line with PEX. That way they can put in the alternate ground in advance of you breaking the protection (probably) offered by the copper. Thanks, most of that is going to be in the future. I gotta get a heater in ASAP, the leaking is getting worse. With that said, how are the push fittings these days. I can get the tools to seat copper, but if I can avoid it I will. At least give me the time to practice a bit before sweating in the joints
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Mar 15, 2017 14:22
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Gothmog1065 posted:100. I don't know about the grounding, but most of the electric was redone in 1992. Normally you would have to worry about that in a 100 year old house, but a 1992 electrical renovation should be fine. In the past, electricians would ground to the nearest cold metal pipe, either copper or galvanized. Well, if you replace a section of that pipe between the ground clamp and the outside with something nonconductive like PEX or CPVC, you'll break the ground connection. If you're replacing metal pipe close to the service entrance with plastic, it's generally a good idea to put a grounding clamp on either side where it's still metal and screw down a big, fat copper wire between them. Edit: Tell you what. If your panel is exposed like in the basement, follow the thick, bare copper wire coming out of it. If it goes outside, then you have different grounding method than the pipes. If it goes to a clamp around a pipe, then you'll know what pipe to compensate for or to not replace. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 16:59
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Gothmog1065 posted:With that said, how are the push fittings these days. I can get the tools to seat copper, but if I can avoid it I will. At least give me the time to practice a bit before sweating in the joints Sharkbite (push fittings) imo should be for temporary poo poo only. If you're not comfortable sweating copper try calling all the local plumbing suppliers and see if they know of anyone that rents propress tools. Very little technique required to use and doesn't have the vulnerabilities of push-fit.
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Mar 16, 2017 03:56
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kid sinister posted:Normally you would have to worry about that in a 100 year old house, but a 1992 electrical renovation should be fine. In the past, electricians would ground to the nearest cold metal pipe, either copper or galvanized. Well, if you replace a section of that pipe between the ground clamp and the outside with something nonconductive like PEX or CPVC, you'll break the ground connection. If you're replacing metal pipe close to the service entrance with plastic, it's generally a good idea to put a grounding clamp on either side where it's still metal and screw down a big, fat copper wire between them. Thanks for all the advice. The panel isn't exposed, however, it's really not located near the plumbing. Either way it's not an issue since for now I'm just going to replace the heater. The tank is leaking worse daily, and there's no water pan underneath so the floor is just happily soaking it up, so I am going to have it here by Friday. My only concern is gas pressure, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there I suppose. I ended up with this unit, seemed to be well reviewed, it's going into an "outdoor" room. It's the laundry room, and there are no direct to the house connections, so there shouldn't be any issues there. There is plenty of venting and a window I can keep open during the summer. I am going to use Sharkbite connectors for now, in a few years when I start other projects, I plan on adding re-circulation lines to the upstairs and possibly downstairs bathrooms (The kitchen is close enough it doesn't take long to heat up), at which time I'll probably look at replumbing portions of the house (Like the poly main). Thanks again, time to go cry in a corner because all the stupid appliances keep breaking.
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Mar 16, 2017 04:06
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Gothmog1065 posted:I ended up with this unit, seemed to be well reviewed, it's going into an "outdoor" room. It's the laundry room, and there are no direct to the house connections, so there shouldn't be any issues there. There is plenty of venting and a window I can keep open during the summer. Uh bro you can't put that poo poo anywhere enclosed or else you're creating a goddamn deathtrap. That unit is supposed to be mounted on an exterior wall, there should be no "room" involved, just outdoor.
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Mar 16, 2017 04:31
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Jadunk posted:Uh bro you can't put that poo poo anywhere enclosed or else you're creating a goddamn deathtrap. That unit is supposed to be mounted on an exterior wall, there should be no "room" involved, just outdoor. It is outside, in a room with a 1.5" gap a the bottom of the sliding door that rarely closes all the way and a window that doesn't close right. Enough air or should I install an exhaust vent. Nobody is ever in this room with the door closed. Normally I'm in there long enough to swap the clothes and the door stays open. Am I still going to die a horrible death? Because it's happening either way until I can get another unit.
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Mar 16, 2017 18:45
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"I thought it was safe because nobody ever does X," is the start of so many fatal accident reports...
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Mar 16, 2017 18:51
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confined spaces + combustion products = bad times
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Mar 16, 2017 18:55
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sigh Amazon hasn't shipped it yet. Let's see if I can find an indoor that isn't 1-2 months out.
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Mar 16, 2017 19:00
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loving hell. I finally borrow a truck, buy my water heater at Home Depot, bring it home. Three days later my old man shows up to help me install it, and we open the box. Two HUGE loving dents in it, looks like they dropped it off of the top shelf. And yet no damage to the box? Now I have to do it all over again, starting with borrowing the truck...
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Mar 16, 2017 19:49
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Gothmog1065 posted:It is outside, in a room with a 1.5" gap a the bottom of the sliding door that rarely closes all the way and a window that doesn't close right. Enough air or should I install an exhaust vent. Nobody is ever in this room with the door closed. Normally I'm in there long enough to swap the clothes and the door stays open. Am I still going to die a horrible death? Because it's happening either way until I can get another unit. You're going to die a sweet and dreamless death, along with everyone else in your house. Don't gently caress around with CO. PainterofCrap fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Mar 17, 2017 |
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Mar 17, 2017 01:41
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PainterofCrap posted:You're going to die a sweet and dreamless death, along with everone else in your house. Don't gently caress around with CO. Manufacturers specifications even supersede code. If its meant for outdoor. Unless specified otherwise you shouldn't use it indoors. Contant the Manufacturer to end the debate.
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Mar 17, 2017 01:45
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Turd Herder posted:Manufacturers specifications even supersede code. If its meant for outdoor. Unless specified otherwise you shouldn't use it indoors. Contant the Manufacturer to end the debate. It's not so much superseding as part of the code is installing to manufacturer instructions. This is why we need "cut sheets" for devices with your permits. It would be counterproductive and insane to try to capture every possible manufacturer permutation in code in a timely manner.
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Mar 17, 2017 02:56
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Motronic posted:It's not so much superseding as part of the code is installing to manufacturer instructions. I think they were just pointing out that when manufacturers instructions and code disagree, you go with manufacturers specs. (for the reason you pointed out) Gothmog1065 posted:It is outside, in a room with a 1.5" gap a the bottom of the sliding door that rarely closes all the way and a window that doesn't close right. Enough air or should I install an exhaust vent. Nobody is ever in this room with the door closed. Normally I'm in there long enough to swap the clothes and the door stays open. Am I still going to die a horrible death? Because it's happening either way until I can get another unit. I'm not as concerned about you getting enough air IN for the thing to fire, I'm concerned with the air in the room slowly being displaced with CO/CO2 and you (or wife, kids, houseguests) walking into an odorless deathtrap where you just get sleepy, lay down and die. Would it be that hard to just mount that bitch on the other side of the wall? All you would need to do is poke some holes through and turn the pipes out. Drilling 3 holes (hot/cold/gas) seems a hell of a lot better than waiting a month or two for an indoor model to get in stock.
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Mar 17, 2017 06:43
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Jadunk posted:I think they were just pointing out that when manufacturers instructions and code disagree, you go with manufacturers specs. (for the reason you pointed out) He should still contact Rheem. I've seen outside boilers installed inside. And the only reason it was called an outside boiler was because it couldnt withstand rain and snow but it was still vented. I imagine this is still vented and just has an outside rating to withstand the elements.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:02
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Turd Herder posted:He should still contact Rheem. I've seen outside boilers installed inside. And the only reason it was called an outside boiler was because it couldnt withstand rain and snow but it was still vented. I imagine this is still vented and just has an outside rating to withstand the elements. You don't need to contact Rheem. The cut sheets are on their site, and it's very clear that the 84 series have different part numbers for outdoor and indoor direct vent units. He bought an outdoor unit. It needs to be installed outdoors.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:26
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I've already sent the unit back, or will be. I had to get a smaller unit to install so I can stop destroying my floor, as no big box stores keep propane heaters in stock, and most of the local places are sold out. Installing it outside was something I was hoping to avoid.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:48
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Turd Herder posted:He should still contact Rheem. I've seen outside boilers installed inside. And the only reason it was called an outside boiler was because it couldnt withstand rain and snow but it was still vented. I imagine this is still vented and just has an outside rating to withstand the elements. Did you click on his link? These are not compatible with venting.
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Mar 18, 2017 18:08
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Squashy Nipples posted:loving hell. I finally borrow a truck, buy my water heater at Home Depot, bring it home. Three days later my old man shows up to help me install it, and we open the box. Two HUGE loving dents in it, looks like they dropped it off of the top shelf. And yet no damage to the box? This happened to me at Lowes as well. Box was immaculate, but the heater had a huge dent in the side. Fortunately I only lived about 10 minutes away at the time and was with my dad with his truck. Home Depot rents trucks, I believe, so they might be willing to comp you a rental or even send out a new unit for delivery if you explain the situation. I'd advise anyone installing a hot water heater to pop the box open before you leave the store. BeastOfExmoor fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Mar 18, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2017 20:31
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Okay hopefully last question. After telling my wife for two days that she's crazy I finally crawled under the house to look for the dripping sound she kept insisting she heard. Sure enough, one of the hot water pipes connected to this distributing hub (?) is leaking. The pipe on the right is leaking right where it joins the short section of pipe attached to the hub. You can see the drops that have migrated to the bottom of the other pipes on the lower right.  I'm not sure what this stuff is even called, much less how to replace/repair it. Any advice? edit: apparently its 1/2" polybutylene? Is there any reason I can't just remove the short segment and attach the existing pipe to the copper hub thing? What's that thing even called? edit 2: ended up just buying a crimping tool and attached the end of the pipe directly to the copper fitting with a ring. If somebody tells me this is unacceptable I think I'll murder myself. I would have just burned the house down for insurance by now but I'm too scared enough pipes will spring leaks and put the fires out. ihop fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Mar 18, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2017 20:39
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BeastOfExmoor posted:I'd advise anyone installing a hot water heater to pop the box open before you leave the store. Basically anything you buy at home depot / lowes should be checked before you pull out of the premises. I've seen boxes taken apart, parts removed then re-sealed, broken toilets, and of course jacked up water heaters. The real tip is to buy from a plumbing supplier instead of a big box store.
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Mar 18, 2017 21:22
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Jadunk posted:Basically anything you buy at home depot / lowes should be checked before you pull out of the premises. I've seen boxes taken apart, parts removed then re-sealed, broken toilets, and of course jacked up water heaters. The real tip is to buy from a plumbing supplier instead of a big box store. Yea, I've always been surprised how little they check on items I've returned that have been opened/used. Update to my leaky toilet saga. I more or less traced the piping involved at least to the point of the leak. Obviously, from my earlier post the prior installation of the toilet was hosed from the get go. Here's a photo of what's left under the toilet once I cleaned things up a bit.  Obviously the places where the bolts holding down the toilet are supposed to go are hosed, presumably due to water leaks. I dumped a bunch of water down the pipe itself to see if I could get any water leaking to the area below, but got none. I wasn't maxing it out like an actual toilet flushing would, but since I know the wax ring was bad my running theory is that water was leaking down into the floor through the sides of the flange and running down into the wall. Is the caulking here something typical or part of a poorly executed fix the last time this happened? My current thought is that if I install a kit to put new anchors over the old ones and install the new toilet with a non-hosed wax wing. The drywall is open below for the near future, so I'd just monitor and make sure the issue doesn't reoccur before patching the drywall, etc. Dumb plan? Good plan? Beyond that I think just farm things out to a plumber, but obvious that's going to be pricey even if they're able to fix things fairly quickly.
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Mar 19, 2017 06:05
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ihop posted:I would have just burned the house down for insurance by now but I'm too scared enough pipes will spring leaks and put the fires out. With polybutylene this is almost a certainty: https://www.nachi.org/pb.htm
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Mar 19, 2017 06:50
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yeah a friendly plumber at home depot filled me in on all the wonderful traits of PB. If I was planning on staying in this house I think I'd probably replace all of it but other than this leak I haven't had too many problems under the house. *knocks on wood**hears a dripping sound somewhere*
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Mar 19, 2017 17:43
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I'm installing a backup sump, and the one I got says it requires a check valve on both it and the primary pump. My primary pump doesn't have one, so I'll have to add it. Issue is, the instructions say to put it 4 feet above the pump, which in my setup would be not on a vertical length of pipe, but an angled section. I know some check valves only like vertical installs, and I can't figure out if the one I have is one of them. I've included pictures of my setup (the black abs is the original pump, the white pvc is the new pump, just as a placeholder, not cut to length yet). The new pump will connect to the existing line through a wye fitting on the angled section of pipe (I got the proper abs to pvc cement, I know it's not ideal, but even the local plumbing supply house was stumped as to where I could find any 1-1/4 abs to match the current install) . Where should check valves go? Do I even need to really bother with check valves on such a relatively short discharge? I can no longer figure out how to get the bbcode off imgur's new design, so a link http://imgur.com/a/BLHie
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Mar 21, 2017 00:49
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Slugworth posted:I'm installing a backup sump, and the one I got says it requires a check valve on both it and the primary pump. My primary pump doesn't have one, so I'll have to add it. If a pump says it needs a check valve, then it needs one. If you don't install one, they can get keep short cycling or even keep swapping duty as one pumps into the other's pit and vice versa. According to what I've been able to find on that valve, it's the swing flapper type. In that case, look down the valve. You want the hinge side of that valve to be skyward, so that gravity will close that valve when the pump shuts off.
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Mar 21, 2017 04:32
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BeastOfExmoor posted:
I love DANCO Hydroseal flanges. They install with slightly wider holes than the standard replacement/repair flanges so they avoid the rotten or corroded holes where the original bolts were installed. Plus the toilet to flange threaded bolts are pre-installed so it sits your toilet at the perfect height.
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Mar 21, 2017 06:23
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kid sinister posted:If a pump says it needs a check valve, then it needs one. If you don't install one, they can get keep short cycling or even keep swapping duty as one pumps into the other's pit and vice versa.
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Mar 21, 2017 13:36
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Jadunk posted:The real tip is to buy from a plumbing supplier instead of a big box store. Yup. I had a guy lined up that I wanted to use, he said that the Rheem water heaters he supplied were "better then the crap at Home Depot". But I had a $300 credit from Home Depot, and I'm kind of broke, so this was the cheapest out of pocket solution. The replacement one they got down for us had a hole punched in it. Thankfully, I noticed this one right away, since there was a hole in the box right over it. The third (and final) one on the shelf had no damage, though. EDIT: I spent a little more and got the Energy Star model, because I get a MA rebate. It's got one of those auto dampers, so I have to plug it in. Anyone install any of these yet? How new is it? Squashy Nipples fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Mar 21, 2017 |
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Mar 21, 2017 17:54
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Dishwashers and air gaps and meeting code - Planning a full kitchen remodel, and last night my wife became insensible upon learning that we would have to have "one of those stupid things sitting next to our faucet". Our current installation involves who knows what, but it was installed by an idiot so I trust little about its drain. We're moving it anyway, so the old system has to go. Anyway checking Wisconsin's codes, it says that an alternative to an above the counter air gap is: SPS 382.33(9)(d)1.a.Where an air-gap or air-break is located below the countertop, the indirect waste piping from the dishwashing machine shall discharge to a standpipe. The standpipe shall be at least 1 ½ inches in diameter and shall extend at least 15 inches above the trap weir. So, getting 15" of standpipe under the counter/sink and above the trap weir seems difficult. The only way I could see that fitting, would be to connect another horizontal pipe to the vertical drain/vent line for the kitchen sink, and then have a p-trap with standpipe dedicated to the dishwasher. I could just maybe fit this into the cabinet box with the p-trap almost scraping the bottom of the cabinet, or just drill a hole straight through the cabinet and floor, run the standpipe straight down, and have the dishwasher P-trap in the basement directly under the kitchen. Am I understanding this right? Any major flaws in either plan here?
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Mar 22, 2017 02:27
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