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Arist posted:That's not what I said at all, dude, you're choosing to interpret it in extremely strange ways, and the way you chose to edit it makes me think you know that. I just don't think this show is written well enough to overcome the weird exoticism and wish-fulfillment often seen in depictions of these types of relationships. Him being Asian would make it less weird only because their dynamic is really really strange and founded a bunch of weird poo poo that needs to be unpacked. The race change would just remove one of those elements. I could be wrong about how they handle it, they could do it great, but the show hasn't earned that level of trust from me. I get what you're saying, but the point is that it's also his job. He's not instructing her, within the confines of the fiction, because he's better as a result of his gender. It's because he's a magical kung-fu master with nearly 2 decades of learning from the greatest masters of the art.
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Mar 17, 2017 13:28
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VanillaGorilla posted:I get what you're saying, but the point is that it's also his job. He's not instructing her, within the confines of the fiction, because he's better as a result of his gender. It's because he's a magical kung-fu master with nearly 2 decades of learning from the greatest masters of the art. See, that's fine, but they should address it, because while the circumstances make sense it's still weird from the sense of the dynamics at play.
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Mar 17, 2017 13:28
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Two episodes in, and it's "fine". I mean, definitely not great, but definitely not bad. Whether it'll end up being good, or always just... "fine" is another matter. But Colleen Wing made me laugh, the action's tolerable, and the hints at the darker mystery have me intrigued. I see potential here. Danny is dumb as hell, but ehhhhh there's nothing unsalvagable in this show. I'm grateful for the early harsh reviews. Going in with suitably tempered expectations is making this a pleasant enough B list pulp series experience rather than hoping for something worldchanging.
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Mar 17, 2017 13:35
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Arist posted:That's not what I said at all, dude, you're choosing to interpret it in extremely strange ways, and the way you chose to edit it makes me think you know that. I just don't think this show is written well enough to overcome the weird exoticism and wish-fulfillment often seen in depictions of these types of relationships. Him being Asian would make it less weird only because their dynamic is really really strange and founded a bunch of weird poo poo that needs to be unpacked. The race change would just remove one of those elements. I could be wrong about how they handle it, they could do it great, but the show hasn't earned that level of trust from me. If Coleen Wing was being depicted as a submissive stereotype then you might have a point, but she isn't and therefor your argument does seem kind pretty weird.
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Mar 17, 2017 14:06
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Iron Crowned posted:So Iron Fist good now? As of episode 4 the show is definitely not good but it's also not terrible. I think the critics' reviews were right about everything especially how the fight scenes and the dialogue is really bad. It's definitely the weakest one out of all the Marvel shows and I can't imagine that many people are going to stay up and binge watch this. Four episodes in and the biggest problem so far is that I don't really give a poo poo about any of the characters or their story lines. Is it really Danny? Who cares? Are Faramir and his kids evil or just dicks? I don't know but who loving cares. Danny being white is also really loving weird and definitely a product of the times the character was made. I suspect it's going to get talked a lot everywhere because the issue goes way beyond a white man being able to do kung fu but an outsider being more 'cultured' than you. Imagine being say a second generation Asian and going grocery shopping at your local Asian store and then some knowledgeable white guy comes up, starts talking to you in perfect Chinese and pointing out how you're buying the wrong brand of soy sauce or whatever. The white guy is factually correct and totally knows more about your culture than you but it feels really off putting watching it play out. The other Netflix shows made a big deal about blending social issues into their stories so again, it's just weird in that context. Arist posted:That's not what I said at all, dude, you're choosing to interpret it in extremely strange ways, and the way you chose to edit it makes me think you know that. I just don't think this show is written well enough to overcome the weird exoticism and wish-fulfillment often seen in depictions of these types of relationships. Him being Asian would make it less weird only because their dynamic is really really strange and founded a bunch of weird poo poo that needs to be unpacked. The race change would just remove one of those elements. I could be wrong about how they handle it, they could do it great, but the show hasn't earned that level of trust from me. I think Iron Fist being Asian would kind of be worse though because then he's basically every walking stereotype. Oh, Asian child learns zen and karate from secret mystical Asian city and is now bringing it and enlightenment back to the west while he fights off Japanese ninjas. Riiiiiight
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Mar 17, 2017 14:13
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so are the negative reviews mostly a reaction to a white guy doing kung fu? i don't understand how asian people doing kung fu is a racial stereotype but the moment a white person does kung fu it's white washing. i do understand being frustrated there are still no top billed asian actors in the mcu though.
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Mar 17, 2017 14:17
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Arist posted:And while the circumstances of him teaching her to be better at martial arts may make sense, it's still a weird scene. It's weird because he's better at something associated with her heritage and current occupation than her and it's weird because it's a man teaching a woman how to do her job. Her heritage? Not all Asians do martial arts (not even most!), not all martial arts are the same (commonalities due to physiological considerations aside), and they don't belong to Asia (no, not even the ones that originated there). I get that martial arts are a cultural practice, but some people go way overboard with that aspect, and looking at them solely through that lens kinda misses the point and puts you dangerously close to weeaboo territory. Remove the heritage part of the argument, and you're left with current occupation. Well, his current occupation is "magic punch guy". 
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Mar 17, 2017 14:30
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Not to mention that Colleen is probably the best character on the show so far (I'm 4 episodes in) and is an extreme badass. Also worth noting that Danny is "instructing" her on a completely different martial art than she practices, and ends up being shamed by her for being a dickhead to her students in the same episode. I dunno. I get that there are a ton of problematic aspects to the character of Danny Rand and Iron Fist, but it seems unfair to lay that at the feet of the show - they're working with the material at hand. Unless the argument is that Iron Fist is just a bad character, and shouldn't have been brought into the cinematic universe, which I guess could be valid.
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Mar 17, 2017 14:37
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I think the producers were put in a no win situation with regard to Danny. On one hand Young Asian kid grows up to be Kung Fu master is a stereotype that people may have issue with and Young White Boy gets trained by Kung Fu masters and is best at Kung Fu is also a bad stereotype. Maybe the solution would be to have Danny be someone whose family was killed by the mob and instead he wages a one man war with every weapon possible to destroy the criminal underground.
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Mar 17, 2017 14:45
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tooterfish posted:I get the arguments about whitewashing, I'm totally on board with that poo poo (plus I'm a bit bored of the "billionaire returns from the dead to reclaim his heritage and punch crimers" story, white dude or not). But this is an extreme and petty extension of them, and I think it might suffer from some of the same exoticism that's getting complained about. First off, whatever point you're trying to make here is really confused. But, I specifically tried to avoid suggesting martial arts were in any way specifically Asian. Hence the "associated with." That cultural association exists, like it or not. You guys keep saying that because he's trained for fifteen years, it's not weird that he's showing Colleen up. What I'm trying to say is, it's inherently kind of weird that a white guy (who also introduces himself to this perfect stranger by speaking Mandarin to her) comes into a Japanese woman's dojo (which is already playing on that cultural association, so there's no avoiding it) and shows her he's better at fighting than her. It's inextricably weird from the dynamics between the characters' races and genders. The circumstances allow it, but circumstances in a story don't mean anything because it's all loving fake. "This is a weird scenario" should not be a controversial statement, and by failing to address it at all they lean into some of the more troubling elements of the very premise. That's probably the last I'll say on the subject unless future episodes do something else with it because I'm not really interested in rehashing this argument anymore. Also Colleen is easily the best character which is probably the only reason I care.
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Mar 17, 2017 14:48
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Hollismason posted:Maybe the solution would be to have Danny be someone whose family was killed by the mob and instead he wages a one man war with every weapon possible to destroy the criminal underground. Yeah, that's been done. 
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Mar 17, 2017 14:51
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honestly if marvel had been smart enough to get at least one asian actor an mcu vehicle beforehand this wouldn't feel like such a slap in the face to those upset
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Mar 17, 2017 14:51
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VanillaGorilla posted:Not to mention that Colleen is probably the best character on the show so far (I'm 4 episodes in) and is an extreme badass. Also worth noting that Danny is "instructing" her on a completely different martial art than she practices, and ends up being shamed by her for being a dickhead to her students in the same episode. He's also (episode five) somewhat controlling and selfish. They're deliberately troubling the relationship between the two, both out of the fact that he's rich and likes to throw his money around and because he's had some arrested development. He's half a young child, half a thoughtful, experienced adult. My guess is that he's going to gently caress this relationship up, and it'll be the show's way of navigating the fraught cultural baggage it's inherited. Colleen's great, that too, though I'm really loving Tom Pelphy's performance as borderline psychopath Ward. (He's basically inherited his brother's role from Banshee). Apparently Ward's a common name for psychopaths in the Marvel universe. Who knew?
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Mar 17, 2017 14:54
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Percelus posted:honestly if marvel had been smart enough to get at least one asian actor an mcu vehicle beforehand this wouldn't feel like such a slap in the face to those upset With the tiger imagery on her jacket, I thought that Colleen is supposed to be a stand-in for White Tiger. I can see why they wouldn't try to make her a marquee character with that moniker though, because White Tiger has been through some....weird.....iterations in the comics (including being a literal tiger woman). Also White Tiger was never Asian, either, despite being a martial arts focused character. The original WT was from Puerto Rico or something.
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Mar 17, 2017 14:58
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Percelus posted:honestly if marvel had been smart enough to get at least one asian actor an mcu vehicle beforehand this wouldn't feel like such a slap in the face to those upset Agents of Shield has a couple Asian women in significant roles, one has arguably become as close to a 'main' character as the show has. Not a headline show like Iron Fist that's named after either of them though.
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Mar 17, 2017 15:02
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The white jacket is Colleen's comic-book costume. Edit: Up to ep 6 and, re: Ward I was not expecting him and Joy to basically flip, sympathetic-character wise.
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Mar 17, 2017 15:04
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edit: gently caress it, no need.
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Mar 17, 2017 15:14
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End of episode 7: Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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Mar 17, 2017 15:19
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Electromax posted:Agents of Shield has a couple Asian women in significant roles, one has arguably become as close to a 'main' character as the show has. Not a headline show like Iron Fist that's named after either of them though. yeah melinda may is p cool but not enough. they need ruffalo to hand hulk over to an amadeus cho or give silk a spinoff movie after introducing her in spiderman along with a kamala khan trilogy. these films are huge in asia so it makes sense i think
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Mar 17, 2017 15:28
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Episode 8: "I hired a private investigator a while ago. She's worth every penny. When she's sober."
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Mar 17, 2017 15:55
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Arist posted:Episode 8: "I hired a private investigator a while ago. She's worth every penny. When she's sober." There was a blink and you miss it reference to Karen, earlier, too. Pretty much everyone's been alluded to in this. It really feels like setup for Defenders
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Mar 17, 2017 16:12
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episode 7 "let's go get a bundle of arrows" and earlier claire "you can't do this alone" damnit, just get luke and jess and daredevil and everyone. but i'm gonna have to wait til the defenders aren't i
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Mar 17, 2017 16:15
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So is Iron Fist good and worth watching or nah
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Mar 17, 2017 16:15
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Mr. Funktastic posted:So is Iron Fist good and worth watching or nah I'm gonna say yes, but it's a slower burn.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:17
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Episode 8: That drunken master fight owned, exactly what I want out of this show Real issue right now is that I don't have a great idea of what it's building to, but we'll see how it all pays off.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:18
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VanillaGorilla posted:With the tiger imagery on her jacket, I thought that Colleen is supposed to be a stand-in for White Tiger. I can see why they wouldn't try to make her a marquee character with that moniker though, because White Tiger has been through some....weird.....iterations in the comics (including being a literal tiger woman). Also White Tiger was never Asian, either, despite being a martial arts focused character. The original WT was from Puerto Rico or something. Didn't Jessica refer to a White Tiger name when she was trying to refer Luke to another PI?
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Mar 17, 2017 16:20
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Arist posted:End of episode 7: Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh end of episode 7 poo poo, let's hope this recovers better than luke cage did after the death of the better villain at the end of episode 7. is this the formula now?
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Mar 17, 2017 16:23
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God, I'm liking this so much. It has idiot Danny which is canon and Colleen saving his rear end periodically which is also canon and it has the Hand which was the best part of DD2. Seriously, I loving hate the Punisher.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:31
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Just finished the first episode, and man, I can already tell that so many of the show's problems stem from the completely asinine decision to play down the supernatural elements in order to keep it more in line with the other Netflix shows tonally.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:33
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Barry Convex posted:Just finished the first episode, and man, I can already tell that so many of the show's problems stem from the completely asinine decision to play down the supernatural elements in order to keep it more in line with the other Netflix shows tonally. I wouldn't be so sure about that, dude. I don't remember what episode it is but they explicitly reference the dragon.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:35
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VanillaGorilla posted:Not to mention that Colleen is probably the best character on the show so far (I'm 4 episodes in) and is an extreme badass. Also worth noting that Danny is "instructing" her on a completely different martial art than she practices, and ends up being shamed by her for being a dickhead to her students in the same episode. I read the scene as Danny trying to prove his worth to keep around. Also it wasn't really about teaching her or correcting her martial arts. It was about aggression vs calm and trying to show and tell their different approaches to life. It wasn't a good scene, and definitely could have been polished up a lot to make it better. It seems like the intention is to have Danny be very naive as well as largely being a fish out of water. The biggest problem with that is that the actor can't do any better than convey him as a loving doofus idiot.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:36
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Arist posted:I wouldn't be so sure about that, dude. I don't remember what episode it is but they explicitly reference the dragon. Oh, "reference." Yeah, really embracing the supernatural elements there. Tell, don't show, as they say!
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Mar 17, 2017 16:38
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I'm not gonna spoil too much but I'm on episode 9 and this show has gotten pretty pretty weird. And I doubt they could show that much and have it look at all good, especially on their budget. I'll say it again but I like the glow-hand effect a good deal. They're leaning into it much harder than I would have suspected, at least.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:40
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Mild ep 1 stuff Danny is kind of a smug prick to this nice homeless guy the whole time and it makes his reaction to his death feel really insincere
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Mar 17, 2017 16:41
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Mr. Funktastic posted:So is Iron Fist good and worth watching or nah The characters are sometimes a little flat and comic book like (  ), the dialogue is cringy as gently caress in places (the guy has a koan for every occasion!) and the greatest sin of all... the very first fight scene is utterly loving anaemic.It gets better though, even just in the first episode. The choreography overall isn't actually that bad, at least compared to Netflix's other Marvel outings (Daredevil S1 is the standout, the rest are really nothing to write home about). It'll never be great I don't think, but it's really not the worse thing I've watched. I'll give it a chance.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:48
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Finished the first three episodes, and it's not that the show's *bad* as much as it's just aggressively mediocre and opposed to doing anything at all. The lack of logic on the show is one of the most jarring things so far. Feels a lot like one of those ~90s superhero movies who barely care about the premise.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:52
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Two episodes down already. I like it enough so far. It's not anything as amazing as the first couple of episodes of say DD S2, but that's fine. I didn't think the first two episodes of JJ were all that hot. When Danny got his juice and broke the door down, I got pretty hype. Jessica Henwick is very pretty. I understand critics being disappointed though. By this point we should have gotten a scene of Danny punching a whole lotta dudes in a confined space. Netflix Marvel is good at that.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:56
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Barry Convex posted:Just finished the first episode, and man, I can already tell that so many of the show's problems stem from the completely asinine decision to play down the supernatural elements in order to keep it more in line with the other Netflix shows tonally. I don't even know what this is.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:58
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Arist posted:I'm not gonna spoil too much but I'm on episode 9 and this show has gotten pretty pretty weird. And I doubt they could show that much and have it look at all good, especially on their budget. But if they don't have the budget for mystical poo poo, then just use any of the other dozen "good at fighting" guys in Marvel.
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Mar 17, 2017 17:00
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Percelus posted:yeah melinda may is p cool but not enough. they need ruffalo to hand hulk over to an amadeus cho or give silk a spinoff movie after introducing her in spiderman along with a kamala khan trilogy. these films are huge in asia so it makes sense i think He was probably talking about Daisy, Chloe Bennet's real last name is Wang and had a career for hot minute in China as a pop star. She was justifiably upset when people kept calling out Marvel for its lack of women super heroes when she was running around with super powers for a year at that point.
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Mar 17, 2017 17:01
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