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Also think I'm gonna get off my rear end and use all those phoenix upgrades to gold my elachi weapons. All those hull-penetrating stuff getting nerfed, but they forgot to touch that proc..  Also went and golded a few other science consoles so I'd at least have some options there. Honestly I'm not even sure what the hell I'll fly after this, considering it seems like beamboats are being nerfed into the ground and flying around broadsiding everything in sight was the only tolerable way to play this. Ah well it's not like I really play it these days anyway.
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Mar 16, 2017 20:47
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Just made all my torpedoes gold since gently caress FAW post nerf.
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Mar 16, 2017 20:56
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I... think I'm just going to stop playing this game.
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Mar 17, 2017 02:13
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Defiance Industries posted:I... think I'm just going to stop playing this game. Don't you loving dare. Play until you're banned! THAT'S THE ONLY WAY TO QUIT
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Mar 17, 2017 03:26
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Asimo posted:despite the power balance changing the encounter balance isn't any different so you're still going to need AOE. Well, since you haven't caught on yet, the idea is to move people away from constant AoE builds - Spartan expressly stated that part of the mission statement driving this rebalance is to produce longer encounters and normalize the time spent in a given combat between the tryhards and the more casual crowd a bit. FAW was BIS because if the player using it could follow a cookie cutter shipbuilding guide, they were able to end any encounter in the game in ten seconds. Those same players would then complain that the game was too easy/missions were over too quickly and that STO was always the same. Now, Cryptic had three options here - buff the enemies, nerf the players, or make understanding game mechanics easy for new players THEN buff the enemies. They already tried option one with Delta Rising, and it was bad, 10% of the player base complained about fights taking a couple minutes instead of a couple seconds and the remaining 90% complained that they couldn't actually finish missions because they're all in shitfits they think are serviceable. So that was nixed, over time. This is now option 2 going into effect. I actually don't think Cryptic is going to gently caress with the math on display overmuch. They want FaW to only work on smaller ships and fighters, and for anything bigger than a frigate to require focusing down one at a time, much like how combat was portrayed in every fight that wasn't any of the major ones in DS9. They want Escorts to come back into their original role, IE murder that one important ship as quickly as possible in team instances. They want cruisers to be good fire support but not the complete area denial they have been for the last few years. I dunno what the gently caress they're doing to science beyond making sure Tacs can't use it as well as Sci captains, except Sci captains also suck at science now so whatever. They also want carriers to have their pets actually be a factor in any decisions regarding whether or not to fly them, and that's actually pretty great. Now, is any of this going to be fun? I dunno. Usually mass shake ups of a game's meta are more annoying than anything, especially when a company that has a pretty bad track record with balance in the first place is doing it. But the whole point is looking at new abilities and combinations, not doubling down on flying the same poo poo but with FAW one rank higher and then just lamenting the DPS loss. On that note, gonna be interesting to see how Grav Well/Timeline Collapse paired with Distributed Targeting stacks up after all this poo poo goes into effect.
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Mar 17, 2017 03:54
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Psycho Landlord posted:They already tried option one with Delta Rising, and it was bad, 10% of the player base complained about fights taking a couple minutes instead of a couple seconds and the remaining 90% complained that they couldn't actually finish missions because they're all in shitfits they think are serviceable. So that was nixed, over time. To be fair, a lot of those complaints were because of that bug with the Vaadwaur Heavy Cruiser that sometimes gave it orders of magnitude too much health for a month or two after launch. I remember to finish one quest I had to keep on a single one for literally fifteen minutes to blow it up and my ship's at the very least competent.
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Mar 17, 2017 04:08
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Psycho Landlord posted:Well, since you haven't caught on yet, the idea is to move people away from constant AoE builds  If they want to get away from AOE builds they have to redesign every aspect of space combat, simultaneously. Including enemy toughness, encounter size, and so on as well as loving around with skill balance. These sorts of power tweaks are almost to the point of redesigning combat from the ground up (especially since all they really needed was "make BO suck less, make FAW suck a bit more, make embassy consoles a bit worse so there's competition) but then they're going to throw these revamped ships into the same content designed around teams flying around FAW'ing everything into oblivion. It's not gonna work.I mean in practice it won't matter since the game's mostly designed around people who don't understand how to build ships, but it's still such a poorly planned revamp.
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Mar 17, 2017 04:52
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I really don't see how these changes will shake things up much for most players. Most people weren't really abusing the mechanics that are being changed. People who were really abusing GDF alongside invincibility traits, or were married to their embassy consoles, will have to find a new gimmick. So the people who were getting 300k DPS will come down to 200k. Everyone came to rely on the Plas Leech for power levels, but there were a bunch of little tricks players used to maximize power before the Leech came along, that they'll go back to. I've noticed that Beam Overload is *extremely* popular with new players who have poo poo builds, since it looks and sounds more impressive than FAW, or they're used to good MMOs where single-target attacks are stronger than AoE. So they'll get a buff without having to change anything. Eliminating most shield-ignoring damage in favor of much weaker bleedthrough will make boss fights longer. It will also eliminate many pvp insta-kills. Making immunities a buff that can be stripped off and then giving subnuc to everyone also eliminates the #1 complaint most people have about pvp. I know nobody on PC cares about pvp but I think console players actually want to do it.
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Mar 17, 2017 05:36
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Part of the issue is that FAW isn't a proper AoE. It picks two targets and does 5 high-power beam attacks each against each in short order, with random targeting if the selected target is out of arc. So it'll happily concentrate fire for you, making it good to use in both crowds and single-target situations. Which is poor game design. They shouldn't be trying to steer people away from AoE, they should just change FAW so it's not a weird always-great hybrid AOE/Single-Target super-ability. But they probably don't know how. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Mar 17, 2017 |
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Mar 17, 2017 06:10
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FAW specifically has always been some sort of weird voodoo kludge code made years ago by original staff members with poor documentation that weirdly ties into other aspects of the combat engine, and that's led to all sorts of weirdness like how it interacts with accuracy and procs and occasionally breaks the game entirely if they change it without paying attention. With that said, at this point it's clear enough that Cryptic's done big back-end changes to the skill system so it shouldn't have been that hard to just make an all new FAW and quietly hide the old one in the database and forget it exists. I suspect the only reason they haven't is because trying to remove skills from existing ships will break something horribly because their database is held together by chewing gum and twine.
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Mar 17, 2017 06:22
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Asimo posted:. I suspect the only reason they haven't is because trying to remove skills from existing ships will break something horribly because their database is held together by chewing gum and twine. This is also why they can't lower the ranks of cannon powers to be the same as beam powers
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Mar 17, 2017 06:37
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I look forward to the next major skill revision where they take something sacred like Attack Pattern Alpha and make that a BoFF power too. Pretty sure that would cause more tears than the plasmonic leech changes.
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Mar 17, 2017 07:18
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DancingShade posted:they take something sacred like Attack Pattern Alpha and make that a BoFF power too. Just because they took the best (only) tool out of the worst class' toolbox and gave it to everybody doesn't mean they'd ever do something useful like make engineers relevant again.
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Mar 17, 2017 08:43
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Mondian posted:Just because they took the best (only) tool out of the worst class' toolbox and gave it to everybody doesn't mean they'd ever do something useful like make engineers relevant again. They're making power into kind of a consideration again, so that might make Engineers somewhat worthwhile. Also since GDF now clashes with Invincible and Continuity, "Tanks" are probably going to be better off playing Engineers. Once the dust settles on all of this, I'm going to have to put more work into the wiki.
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Mar 17, 2017 08:56
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Mondian posted:Just because they took the best (only) tool out of the worst class' toolbox and gave it to everybody doesn't mean they'd ever do something useful like make engineers relevant again. What's an engineer?
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Mar 17, 2017 09:09
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DancingShade posted:What's an engineer?
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Mar 17, 2017 11:28
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Psycho Landlord posted:Well, since you haven't caught on yet, the idea is to move people away from constant AoE builds - Spartan expressly stated that part of the mission statement driving this rebalance is to produce longer encounters and normalize the time spent in a given combat between the tryhards and the more casual crowd a bit. FAW was BIS because if the player using it could follow a cookie cutter shipbuilding guide, they were able to end any encounter in the game in ten seconds. Those same players would then complain that the game was too easy/missions were over too quickly and that STO was always the same. And to expand on this with personal experience: To be fair, it's a bit ridiculous how laser type weapons can be at the moment. I just watched a single tactical officer blitz Infected Elite and down the cubes, transformers, and generators in about two minutes. And by blitz I mean he did it pretty much solo. Aside from me healing the guy (He was taking an insane amount of damage.) everyone else was trying to keep pace with the him since as soon as they'd arrive they'd drop out of full impulse, get a shot or two in, then promptly be left behind due to full impulse taking forever to engage. Meanwhile he'd sprint off to the next objective like some sort of space age berserker. Thankfully I was smart enough to realize what was going on, but imagine if you saw that poo poo as a pubbie? You wouldn't even know how to respond to it. At least one of them figured the guy was hacking. That's how crazy the damage he was putting out was. I'm pretty sure most people aren't big enough nerds to get their damage that high, but goddamn did it highlight how laser type weapons are king. About the only time he didn't exceed expectations was on the damage sponge of a final boss. And by that point I think he was just giving everyone else a chance to pitch in. Plus it's designed to take more than ten seconds to down and is right by the previous objective. At what point do you say "Okay, yeah. This build needs a nerf and we need to put ____ weapon type intended for single target DPS or (small number of targets) DPS back where it belongs?". There's literally no reason to run content with anything but a build like that if you're looking at efficiency alone. I mean, i'm the person flying a Recluse. So it's not like I expect to be at the top of the field of anything except for watching my dinky rear end ships periodically go nuts on everything. But still, holy poo poo. It's kind of absurd how one or two builds literally can trivialize a fair bit of the content. I can't imagine that was intended. MikeJF posted:Part of the issue is that FAW isn't a proper AoE. It picks two targets and does 5 high-power beam attacks each against each in short order, with random targeting if the selected target is out of arc. So it'll happily concentrate fire for you, making it good to use in both crowds and single-target situations. Which is poor game design. Wait, is that how it works? I could swear it worked as an actual AOE way back at release. The gently caress did they do to change it? And why? That'd make FAW superior to just about any attack. 
Archonex fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Mar 17, 2017 |
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Mar 17, 2017 15:29
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Buff mines so I can primary as a mineboat, Cryptic.
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Mar 17, 2017 15:49
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Aleth posted:Buff mines so I can primary as a mineboat, Cryptic. I still think they should give a bunch of escorts a dedicated eighth rear weapon slot that's limited to mines. Just a little extra fun slot.
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Mar 17, 2017 15:53
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MikeJF posted:I still think they should give a bunch of escorts a dedicated eighth rear weapon slot that's limited to mines. Just a little extra fun slot. Can you imagine a pilot escort just making GBS threads mines out while spinning the ship everywhere like the captain's a meth addict on a binge? Actually, that'd be pretty rad. And it's make mines kind of useful given how fast a pilot can reposition. Cryptic should do that. Archonex fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Mar 17, 2017 |
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Mar 17, 2017 15:59
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quote:I mean, i'm the guy flying a Recluse. So it's not like I expect to be at the top of the field of anything except for watching my dinky rear end ships periodically go nuts on everything. You underestimate your own ability. You're a Recluse. That means your damage potential is very high because Mesh Weavers are dumping free Attack Pattern Betas on everything. Carriers, especially with frigate pets, are very much a top dog. There's a very good reason most of the special ships and recent releases have had some sort of hanger capability, usually with some frigate-class capability as well. Some are better than others, of course. Plesh Beks and thus mass Tachyon Beam are actually kinda scary, I'm noticing. Bloodly fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Mar 17, 2017 |
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Mar 17, 2017 16:09
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Archonex posted:Wait, is that how it works? I could swear it worked as an actual AOE way back at release. The gently caress did they do to change it? And why? That'd make FAW superior to just about any attack. Technically FAW draws the beams from targets to your ship, rather than the other way around. That's why when the dyson content launched, the dev attempts to fiddle with FAW made buffs effect enemies instead of players.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:11
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Bloodly posted:You underestimate your own ability. You're a Recluse. That means your damage potential is very high because Mesh Weavers are dumping free Attack Pattern Betas on everything. I don't even know how to get frigate pets. My old school Federation Dreadnought has shuttles, and I thought it was pretty cool when they added that. It didn't have a hangar at all at first.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:14
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Archonex posted:To be fair, it's a bit ridiculous how laser type weapons can be at the moment. (...) Cryptic is kind of vaguely aware of this since they're making it so GDF doesn't have degenerate interactions with Invincible and the like, but that isn't really solving the issue. Tacs need to have their damage boosts removed entirely and replaced with the utility powers the other classes have, the damage math needs to be reworked entirely so it's more transparent and various buffs are additive rather than multiplicative, or preferably both. The changes going through right now are basically the equivalent of shuffling the deck chairs around... it'll help a bit since it will cut the top end down a bit and raise the floor slightly, but they don't actually solve any of the underlying math issues and probably create a while bunch more in the meanwhile. FAW and Beam Overload definitely need adjustments despite that though, even if most of it is BO being literally useless in PVE right now versus any other attack skill. Aleth posted:Buff mines so I can primary as a mineboat, Cryptic.
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Mar 17, 2017 16:16
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They are finally, in these changes, making mines immune to "hazards" and increasing their target-acquisition range. They made targetable torpedoes fly faster, but I don't know if that affects mines or not.
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Mar 17, 2017 17:31
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If the "targetable torps are immune to hazards" thing applies to NPCs, does that mean that being one-shot by invisible borg torps will come back?
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Mar 17, 2017 18:53
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Tunicate posted:Technically FAW draws the beams from targets to your ship, rather than the other way around.  Oh my god, this is so, so funny. It's invisible cats all the way down.
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Mar 17, 2017 19:36
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Archonex posted:Aside from me healing the guy (He was taking an insane amount of damage.) Best part is he probably didn't want you to - a lot of the current leet dps meta revolves around abusing a few traits in order to stay at 0 hull for a few minutes and pair that with Go Down Fighting. He probably would have been more dangerous if you weren't healing him. Asimo posted:Tacs need to have their damage boosts removed entirely and replaced with the utility powers the other classes have This is a loving terrible idea and would require not just a rework of the class, but the fundamental ideology of what the class is about. You don't do that this late in a games lifespan. You don't really do it any point, especially not when you only have three classes in a game. Asimo posted:the damage math needs to be reworked entirely so it's more transparent and various buffs are additive rather than multiplicative, This is what actually needs to happen. On top of that, I feel that Tac's various damage buffs should be team-wide (with the exception of GDF) and only be applicable one instance at a time. Team warps in with 2 Tacs, 2 Sci, and one Engi. Tac one pops APA - boom, everyone on the team has APA for however many seconds, they shoot things, APA runs out, Tac 2 pops his, boom, everyone on the team has APA for however many seconds, rinse and repeat as cooldowns expire, make it have a maximum range, and basically play the Tac Fleet game with other abilities. You encourage teams to stick together and buff each other, and you lessen the effects of runaway Tac ultra-buffing. This, combined with normalizing the various buffs and making the math accurate for once would go a long way towards keeping people from rolling nothing but Tacs if they can get similar buffs on an engineer just by being around one. Asimo posted:FAW and Beam Overload definitely need adjustments despite that though, even if most of it is BO being literally useless in PVE right now versus any other attack skill. This is happening as we speak - the BO damage and crit buff applies to your guns, it's not a debuff on the target. So you BO a frigate and gib it or whatever, then turn your now supercharged guns on other things. It's apparently pretty great. Psycho Landlord fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Mar 17, 2017 |
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Mar 17, 2017 20:23
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Psycho Landlord posted:This is a loving terrible idea and would require not just a rework of the class, but the fundamental ideology of what the class is about. This is readily obvious just from looking at DPS parses and, you know, how like 60% of active characters play tac. All removing their damage boosts would do, assuming they got utility buffs in their place, is just put tacs on the same level as the other two classes, so forgive me if I shed a tear about that horrible nerf.The alternative would be giving Eng and Sci damage boosts of their own, maybe through other means, but Cryptic is understandably loathe to do that. Making tac buffs teamwide would maybe sort of solve it, but unless eng/sci buffs were teamwide too you wind up with tac just being a mandatory class for different reasons. Still bad.
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Mar 17, 2017 20:34
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Asimo posted:The ideology of the class is poo poo and absolutely impossible to balance, hth. You say this while acknowledging that the semi-functional math behind how buffs work in this game is the core issue. And you were playing pre-LOR, when Engineers were the objectively best class due to power level buffing in space/fortification spam on ground, and no one could really compare, but I don't remember you bitching then. Tacs are great now because a lot of what engineers can do is now achievable with consoles - which is a thing that is expressly being removed. Tacs are also great because their buffs affect more than just weapon damage - which is a thing that is expressly being mitigated. Tacs, finally, are great because they are able to use several traits released over the years in order to utilize their most powerful death or glory buff to it's maximum potential at any time with no fear of death. Once again, this is a thing that is expressly being removed. Yes, make Captain buffs team-wide within range. They're already doing this with Sci a bit too, if I remember right the subnuc replacement is a team-wide buff. Apply the same to some of the engineer's abilities and there you go, an effective triumvirate of careers buffing careers. Removing Tacs buffing damage and speed is stupid - that's what they do. STO is not the only MMO where the DPS class buffs it's DPS. That is not the root cause of the balance problems in STO. The things that are being nerfed are. The idiocy of how damage calculations work and who gets access to what category of buff is another issue, and hopefully that is being looked at. And seriously, if you're surprised that the majority of players in an MMO picked the facerolling DPS analogue, you really need to look at other games more often.
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Mar 17, 2017 21:01
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Psycho Landlord posted:They're already doing this with Sci a bit too, if I remember right the subnuc replacement is a team-wide buff. Apply the same to some of the engineer's abilities and there you go, an effective triumvirate of careers buffing careers. Uhh... wait a minute I'm still not seeing the value of science. Everything they get except for SNB is totally useless and now they don't even get that. Next best thing is scattering field and that's neither great nor necessary and science fleet... I suppose it gives you some shield resists that's nice, but with epts, even post-nerf leech, supremacy, the shield power nrg wpn doff, and a million other things you're probably sitting close to the cap anyway if you know what you're doing. That Deflector Overcharge will need to be amazing to give sci the barest breath of life. e: Just to be clear, I don't give a single gently caress either way. Looking at the numbers changing and the game as I know it, I 100% expect to not give a single poo poo about changing my current build at all and just eat the incremental nerf to my OP ship and still faceroll the garbage content in this game because its dumb and easy and I'm fortunate enough to have already done the grinding for my QOL traits/equipment. Mondian fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Mar 17, 2017 |
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Mar 17, 2017 21:31
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Mondian posted:Uhh... wait a minute I'm still not seeing the value of science. Everything they get except for SNB is totally useless and now they don't even get that. Next best thing is scattering field and that's neither great nor necessary and science fleet... I suppose it gives you some shield resists that's nice, but with epts, even post-nerf leech, supremacy, the shield power nrg wpn doff, and a million other things you're probably sitting close to the cap anyway if you know what you're doing. There isn't really any, which is one of the main points of contention with this rebalance. That wasn't a glowing endorsement of the science career, that was just pointing out that there's precedent for making the jump to what I'm suggesting. And in the end, yeah, pretty much everyone is just going to move two or three abilities up or down a rank and carry on as normal. A lot of people like to spout the "it hurts the newbies Cryptic" thing, but the newbies aren't going to give a poo poo and pretty much every nerf in the notes is designed to gently caress over high end tacs spamming GDF and grav well. That these nerfs also happen to screw science captains a bit is really just a symptom of Science captains being sorta pointless outside of subnuc and having no identity.
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Mar 17, 2017 22:01
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I still have two Engineer mains. 
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Mar 17, 2017 22:32
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Tac players crying because they get nerfed to the same levels of eng & sci is reason enough to do it IMO.
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Mar 17, 2017 22:44
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Mondian posted:Uhh... wait a minute I'm still not seeing the value of science. Everything they get except for SNB is totally useless and now they don't even get that. Next best thing is scattering field and that's neither great nor necessary and science fleet... I suppose it gives you some shield resists that's nice, but with epts, even post-nerf leech, supremacy, the shield power nrg wpn doff, and a million other things you're probably sitting close to the cap anyway if you know what you're doing. A well built science officer that knows what they're doing is a loving demigod in ground play. They're basically what tactical officers are in space. More to the point, a good science officer on your team makes the higher tier instanced team play on the ground potentially be fun and not a masochistic slog since they can actually keep the team up even if they're under geared. They can pull you through a lot of stuff that other classes just can't do at that tier of play. They're even vital to have a reasonable rate of success in some instanced content. Since any instance that requires keeping an NPC up, an objective defended, or you only having one life in means that you're going to want one if you're doing the elite version of an instance. Otherwise NPC's will either die while traveling to them (IE: Stage 2 of the "protect gorn miners!" instance.) or someone will get one shotted or dragged into a hazard (Like the Tholian boss fight instance.) and die without them being able to do anything about it. In space?...Eh, they get extra summons and a few minor buffs? They're honestly not on par with the other two classes in space combat. I guess they can make training manuals for some potentially ridiculous powers too? The max tier gravity well seems to pulp entire waves of ships if you've specced into it properly. Being a mobile field manual distributor isn't my idea of good play on that front. The only other thing they're theoretically top tier at is keeping other ships alive. And being the guy that sits there and hits a skill every few seconds so other people can enjoy the game is...Uh, yeah. Not too fun. If I had my way i'd turn them into a pet class. Just take photonic fleet as a base and start giving them all sorts of ways to bring in enough ships to fill out an armada. quote:Best part is he probably didn't want you to - a lot of the current leet dps meta revolves around abusing a few traits in order to stay at 0 hull for a few minutes and pair that with Go Down Fighting. He probably would have been more dangerous if you weren't healing him. This is hysterical and explains why he kept trying to run away from me in combat. Archonex fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Mar 18, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2017 01:23
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I can't believe they're only now making pets immune to warp core breaches.
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Mar 18, 2017 01:30
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super sweet best pal posted:I can't believe they're only now making pets immune to warp core breaches. They're finally doing that? Holy poo poo.  Maybe next they can make return to hangar work so that you don't lose 5 star ships in large instances or world combat. Or just let them teleport to the player if they get out of range.
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Mar 18, 2017 01:33
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Well they continuously tried to fix it by making the AI attempt to avoid warp core breaches. The problem is, it's the hangar pet AI and thus things like "actually keep up at full impulse" or "actually attack the target" aren't even guaranteed, so that never worked as intended.
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Mar 18, 2017 01:33
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Asimo posted:Well they continuously tried to fix it by making the AI attempt to avoid warp core breaches. The problem is, it's the hangar pet AI and thus things like "actually keep up at full impulse" or "actually attack the target" aren't even guaranteed, so that never worked as intended. Yeah, knowing about all their efforts to try to improve on the AI this sounds more like them throwing up their hands and admitting defeat. Really, they could fix warp core breaches being so destructive to them by making them faster. And they should be faster. But that won't ever happen since players would succumb to crab in a pot syndrome and pitch a fit over other player's potentially getting a class of ship that are actually effective in combat. Heck, those fighter games set in the Star Trek universe way back in the playstation era of games used that as a concept for the gameplay. Smaller craft weren't juggernauts or even gunships half the time. A lot of them moved like they had a few dozens rockets strapped to the hull to stay alive instead of trading shots with larger craft. The reason being that the setting's energy weaponry is so ridiculously powerful that if you took a shot from a capital ship's weapon banks in that game you were done. The goal was to stay at top speed and use situational awareness while dog fighting or making bombing runs so you were a harder target. Archonex fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Mar 18, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2017 01:35
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Archonex posted:Yeah, knowing about all their efforts to try to improve on the AI this sounds more like them throwing up their hands and admitting defeat. If you're talking about shattered universe, you're mis-remembering. Every fighter in that game universally moved like a pig covered in molasses which then had yet more molasses-pigs taped to it.
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Mar 18, 2017 02:00
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