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etalian posted:In this grim dark future only space Mormons and martian space communists are the good guys. My strongest impression of Mars so far is from the crew and marines of the Donnager, who were so prejudiced about Earth that they ignored direct evidence contrary to their propaganda. When Holden refused to cooperate unless the Marines rescued the other Canterbury survivors the marines insisted he couldn't possibly care that much about his shipmates because he was from Earth. In spite of the evidence of their own senses that the Earther in front of them is risking his own life to protect his shipmates. Add to that all the times Martian characters rant about how everyone from Earth is inherently lazy because of Basic, when they are facing individuals from Earth like Holden or Amos who have chosen hard work and danger when they could have stayed on Basic. With the exception of Alex and the lieutenant Bobby's squad reported to most of the Martians are easily characterized as blinded bigots insisting that the teachings of their propaganda state must be true. Doris didn't seem that way, but I suppose if she'd acted like the other Martians we've seen there might have been cheers when she got spaced. Add to that the point that Bates made; Martians treat the outer system as badly as Earth does.
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Mar 18, 2017 19:34
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A good poster posted:Rather than any physics nitpicking, I'm wondering how that random-rear end Belter crewman managed to recognize Prax was born on Ganymede and not Earth or Mars. Maybe he's described differently in the books, but Prax looked like just another well-groomed Inner to me. Was the Belter guy supposed to have overheard his conversation with the woman in the cargo hold? Didn't Prax say something in belter-cajun to that crewman early on? I totally assumed (in part because I missed any lines where Prax said he was a belter) it was a judgement based on that and nothing else. I mean, it's not like the ship's crew expected any consequences one way or another.
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Mar 18, 2017 20:35
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The reason anyone has any sort of positive or "least bad" opinion on mars is because they haven't been shown as much so it leaves more blanks to fill in. They're not a communist utopia or the most reasonable. They think it's their holy destiny to terraform mars and their government keeps telling everyone they'll see it in their life times and when it doesn't pan out they blame earth and squeeze the belt even harder. Terraforming mars is an idiotic idea and with all the resources they wasted on that they could have built hundreds of O'Neil cylinders all with perfect earth-like conditions inside. Mars is a massive resource-pit and is the reason water is short in the belt. They don't seem to be any sort of socialist utopia either, they have corporations, powerful rich families, and elevated the military to starship troopers levels of social/political importance. They just have a culture obsessed with hating earth that unites them and tons of propaganda that they're all united in this great project and struggle unlike those lazy aimless earthers and criminal belters. I do wish the show would explore earth and mars a bit more. We have a pretty good idea what life for the average belter is like, what their culture is like. But we only see the political and corporate elite of earth, and the military of mars. I'd love to see a few episodes set on the streets of earth, or a typical mars hab-dome.
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Mar 18, 2017 20:47
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I just think it's amusing they have such a low opinion on Earth while simultaneously wanting to turn Mars into... Earth. Maybe they have a grand plan for society - population control, better distribution of resources or governance or something - it would be interesting to know but if they don't then they are ultimately going down the exact same path as Earth.
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Mar 18, 2017 20:58
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Re: Mars "communism," they have a focus on terraforming the planet but it's not through government ownership of anything, just spending priorities and propaganda. It's like saying US Manifest Destiny stuff and the settling of the west was a communist endeavor. Sure thing, pal. In a later book a few ships named after Ayn Rand and her works are mentioned. They all are Mars-owned.
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Mar 18, 2017 21:10
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Mars looks at its self at Galts gulch basically. The earthers are all lazy parasites destined to collapse because they're a society of takers, while mars is all hard working self-made brilliant captains of industry and are makers.
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Mar 18, 2017 21:15
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Baronjutter posted:Mars looks at its self at Galts gulch basically. The earthers are all lazy parasites destined to collapse because they're a society of takers, while mars is all hard working self-made brilliant captains of industry and are makers. I don't think that's entirely true? A big thing with Mars is every Martian is part of the "Grand Plan" of terraforming the planet. No one is unemployed because they can't be unemployed. Everyone works but there's no grand "Captain of Industry". The show added the bit where building up the military set back the terraforming efforts, but that wasn't in the books as far as I know (only up to book 3). Earth, on the otherhand, has little to no jobs due to automation and reaping the resources of The Belt so most Earthers are on basic income. Hence the "Earthers are lazy" thing. Also, Earth has water/air/ect but has still been totally hosed by climate change so there's also the attitiude of "Earthers don't know/didn't know what they have/had". Snuffman fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Mar 18, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2017 21:21
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Snuffman posted:I don't think that's entirely true? A big thing with Mars is every Martian is part of the "Grand Plan" of terraforming the planet. No one is unemployed because they can't be unemployed. "I got laid off, where's my welfare?" "LOL, report here tomorrow for your minimum wage assignment to a terraforming labor gang. Do you have a vac suit? Make that less than minimum wage after we deduct your rental fees, then."
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Mar 18, 2017 21:30
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Number Ten Cocks posted:"I got laid off, where's my welfare?" Looks like the accent wasn't the only thing they imported from Texas 
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Mar 18, 2017 21:51
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Under existing astronomy, Mars would have trouble keeping an earth-like atmosphere even if it had a magnetic field to keep the solar wind from blowing it away. Then again, if we have magic engines, we can magic something else up for Mars too. http://askanastronomer.org/planets/2015/11/20/can-we-create-a-magnetic-field-for-mars/
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Mar 18, 2017 21:55
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I don't know where anyone got the idea of communist Mars from? They tend to be pretty socially cohesive and have a red colour scheme I guess (b/c their planet is red). I mean you can say that most wealth and prestige comes from the government terraforming project, but it goes into a normal free market system like that one marine's rich family. Also I think the show did need the murderous belter crew for more than just kicking Prax when he's down. We hadn't really seen what the OPA is like outside of Nice Guy Johnson and Dawes' vaguely honourable revolutionaries. E: Earth on the other hand is a socialist utopia with free food, housing, education and healthcare and all the drugs and internet you could ask for. Just - if you want any sense of hope or purpose you're hosed because the economy has no time to employ you. Only criminals are hiring and to work for them you need to get off the grid and lose your welfare. Strategic Tea fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Mar 18, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2017 21:58
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Well, maybe because we have an eye on the highest level of the UN, so we see that their first response to everything is to blow up anyone who may be a threat. We don't have that luxury with Mars. It seems like that Flag Officer was the only guy with a level head, and once she got more information about the situation, Christian. I'm also starting to think the OPA is being manipulated by Protogen, or at least supplied by them.
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Mar 18, 2017 22:02
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Snuffman posted:Everyone works but there's no grand "Captain of Industry". I don't remember if it's in the books, but there is that marine whose family owns all the terraformers. Having the things that drive the process the entire society's built around be privately owned is capitalist as hell. Snuffman posted:Earth, on the otherhand, has little to no jobs due to automation and reaping the resources of The Belt so most Earthers are on basic income. Hence the "Earthers are lazy" thing. But the Martians also get resources from the Belt and I don't see why they wouldn't have the same kind of automation as Earth. They have the same technology or better. Edit: Strategic Tea posted:E: Earth on the other hand is a socialist utopia with free food, housing, education and healthcare and all the drugs and internet you could ask for. Just - if you want any sense of hope or purpose you're hosed because the economy has no time to employ you. Only criminals are hiring and to work for them you need to get off the grid and lose your welfare. I think it's more that the basic support is subsistence level and nothing more. You get free stuff but it's pretty lovely. To get actually good things, you need to have money via an actual job. And there are barely any of those anymore. Plus IIRC the books heavily imply that military conflicts were happening on Earth between the UN and some kind of separatist groups until relatively recently. As in, Avasarala has a military background and fought in one of them? Kassad fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Mar 18, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2017 22:06
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crazypeltast52 posted:Under existing astronomy, Mars would have trouble keeping an earth-like atmosphere even if it had a magnetic field to keep the solar wind from blowing it away. Then again, if we have magic engines, we can magic something else up for Mars too. I've read that although this is true, the time time it would take for solar winds to actually strip away the atmosphere would be measured in millions of years
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Mar 19, 2017 00:33
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They keep mentioning Pirates, so I figured all combat experience was from that. Sounds like Expanse Earth is a lot like Mega-City 1 in 2000AD/Judge Dredd; work is all done by robots, so there are few real jobs, everyone is assigned a home and has enough to live on, but it's probably slightly worse than a freshman dorm. And I was thinking, could the Protomolecule be micro aggressive, but macro benevolent? It seems like Julie wasn't trying to destroy Earth, she thought she was on her ship, and wasn't aware of what was going on. Though at the same time it could have been influencing her as the nexus of, what I instantly thought of as a brain, to use her memories to destroy the earth.
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Mar 19, 2017 00:46
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I guess it could be more dystopian than I'm picturing, but I always imagined Earth as legitimately having its poo poo together with regards for caring for people's material needs. Like, living on basic isn't dreadful because it's a physical hardship. That seemed too crassly dark for the sake of it. I always thought it was physically comfortable, but psychologically difficult to handle. They make a big todo about how there's no purpose, but I always figured another issue is that there's no status. You can't demonstrate your worth to your neighbors, you can't feel proud of your accomplishments, because everything material you have to work with is exactly what everyone else has. I felt the strength of the Expanse was depicting a society that has legitimately advanced a great deal, but nevertheless has problems that are as severe as societies always have. Race, gender, sexuality, even Earth nationalities seem to be irrelevant, or close to it. But now there's prejudice based on the gravity you grew up in. They've cured cancer, but unleashed the alien protomolecule. There's poo poo on earth- there are cracks people can still fall through, and anyone looking to engage with the market- to do something "real" with their lives- has an incredibly lovely almost impossible path in front of them. But no one's living in slums. No one's dying of preventable diseases. No one's going hungry. It's a world with problems of it's own, having left our problems behind. Though I might have just imagined that 'cause I think it's neat and Basic may be more explicitly lovely than I remember.
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Mar 19, 2017 01:30
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This season has been disappointing and I'm really surprised it had 3 green-lighted
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Mar 19, 2017 01:38
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Professor Shark posted:This season has been disappointing and I'm really surprised it had 3 green-lighted fight me irl Fake Edit: This season has been great and I'm really happy it had 3 green-lighted 
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Mar 19, 2017 01:42
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What actually is involved in the day-to-day process of terraforming Mars in the books, anyway? They're just trying to dump shitloads of oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, right? Unless they can get all that gas from mined asteroids, that would probably require some kind of fictional subatomic-level matter conversion technology that would end scarcity for all of humanity.
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Mar 19, 2017 03:03
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Eiba posted:I guess it could be more dystopian than I'm picturing, but I always imagined Earth as legitimately having its poo poo together with regards for caring for people's material needs. Like, living on basic isn't dreadful because it's a physical hardship. That seemed too crassly dark for the sake of it. I always thought it was physically comfortable, but psychologically difficult to handle. They make a big todo about how there's no purpose, but I always figured another issue is that there's no status. You can't demonstrate your worth to your neighbors, you can't feel proud of your accomplishments, because everything material you have to work with is exactly what everyone else has. you should read the short story The Churn that stars Amos as the protagonist if you want to see what kinda bad poo poo goes down in the low places of the world.
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Mar 19, 2017 03:05
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Eiba posted:. They make a big todo about how there's no purpose, but I always figured another issue is that there's no status. You can't demonstrate your worth to your neighbors, you can't feel proud of your accomplishments, because everything material you have to work with is exactly what everyone else has. Lol at people equating material possessions with being worthwhile.
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Mar 19, 2017 03:05
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uber_stoat posted:you should read the short story The Churn that stars Amos as the protagonist if you want to see what kinda bad poo poo goes down in the low places of the world. NPR Journalizard posted:Lol at people equating material possessions with being worthwhile. I would have imagined in a world like the Expanse things like fashion and creativity would become more important status symbols, but it seems like people on Basic don't really get into that kind of stuff and they keep just idolizing the few people with jobs and the resources they get from that. And so the vast majority of people don't have access to satisfying status symbols. It'll gently caress a people up, whether you share that a value or not.
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Mar 19, 2017 03:54
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I think living on Basic is described on the books (Nemesis Games, maybe?) as like: some kind of gruel that'll keep you alive, some kind of health drugs that'll keep you alive, and access to a severely cut-down version of their Internet equivalent. It sounds pretty terrible.
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Mar 19, 2017 03:58
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Eiba posted:I have. Unless I'm misremembering something wasn't that all about people outside the system? Criminal underworld and such. I don't remember if there were many details about living on Basic. It's quite possible I'm not remembering right. Yeah, mostly. The Vital Abyss covered it more.
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Mar 19, 2017 04:05
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Kassad posted:Plus IIRC the books heavily imply that military conflicts were happening on Earth between the UN and some kind of separatist groups until relatively recently. As in, Avasarala has a military background and fought in one of them? By the way they talk about it in book 2, the conflicts on Earth are ongoing. There's some sort of Middle Eastern Alliance that resists the UN. NOTE: This is background fluff and has no bearing on the plot as far as I know.
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Mar 19, 2017 05:33
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:Didn't Prax say something in belter-cajun to that crewman early on? I totally assumed (in part because I missed any lines where Prax said he was a belter) it was a judgement based on that and nothing else. I mean, it's not like the ship's crew expected any consequences one way or another. Yeah, when Prax first comes to and he's stumbling around looking for his daughter, he grabs a crewman and asks for his dauther in english, then after getting a disdainful look he repeats in belter creole. Later, it's the same crewman that stops him from getting in the airlock. threeagainstfour posted:Nerd here, and even though I could feel something bad coming it didn't even occur to me they would get spaced until the doors cracked and I saw the black of space on the other side. 
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Mar 19, 2017 06:25
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Eiba posted:I guess it could be more dystopian than I'm picturing, but I always imagined Earth as legitimately having its poo poo together with regards for caring for people's material needs. Like, living on basic isn't dreadful because it's a physical hardship. That seemed too crassly dark for the sake of it. I always thought it was physically comfortable, but psychologically difficult to handle. They make a big todo about how there's no purpose, but I always figured another issue is that there's no status. You can't demonstrate your worth to your neighbors, you can't feel proud of your accomplishments, because everything material you have to work with is exactly what everyone else has. Nah Earth is an overpopulated, post-climate change slum with a few nice areas left. Baltimore is described as being like the undercity of a cyberpunk dystopia
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Mar 19, 2017 06:27
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Phi230 posted:Nah Earth is an overpopulated, post-climate change slum with a few nice areas left. We're talking about the Expanse, a fictional TV show, not reality.
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Mar 19, 2017 07:59
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The brief bit we see of normal Earth has a coffee shop where they're surprised to be paid in cash because they normally only see basic ration cards. So you can get (a few) luxuries and it's not just gruel and despair. But just imagine how 90% people including me would do without a job to keep them busy - that's the depressing thought. The Earth underworld is unpleasant but I'm pretty sure the Churn novella says that most of the people there could walk into a UN office and at least get food and housing. Trouble is then they'd be on the system so they'd lose their jobs and status in the underworld. Plus if they could be linked to any crimes, the police now practically have a live biometric feed of them.
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Mar 19, 2017 09:11
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Subyng posted:I've read that although this is true, the time time it would take for solar winds to actually strip away the atmosphere would be measured in millions of years Yes. If we are supposing a situation where we've had the tech to rebuild Mars' atmosphere then keeping it intact would be trivial. Whatever the rate of loss is, just keep your terraforming gas factories putting out that amount of gas and you're good.
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Mar 19, 2017 09:19
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Strategic Tea posted:The brief bit we see of normal Earth has a coffee shop where they're surprised to be paid in cash because they normally only see basic ration cards. So you can get (a few) luxuries and it's not just gruel and despair. But just imagine how 90% people including me would do without a job to keep them busy - that's the depressing thought. Well think of stay-at-home moms/dads who post incessantly on social media about their latest batch of muffins, home improvement project or garden renovation. In terms of status that's their capital, so to speak. Then there's retirees who are perfectly happy to just do whatever and people who spend their money on basically taking time off to go travelling, write a book or fulfill other dreams. I think it takes a dim view of the human condition to assume people need a paycheck to be interested in doing things. Of course not everyone would thrive without work but many don't thrive with it either.
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Mar 19, 2017 09:44
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Professor Shark posted:This season has been disappointing and I'm really surprised it had 3 green-lighted What are you not finding engaging about it? This isn't an accusation, I'm just curious because my best friend has also bounced off of this season after loving season 1 and I don't understand why.
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Mar 19, 2017 09:57
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Strategic Tea posted:The brief bit we see of normal Earth has a coffee shop where they're surprised to be paid in cash because they normally only see basic ration cards. So you can get (a few) luxuries and it's not just gruel and despair. But just imagine how 90% people including me would do without a job to keep them busy - that's the depressing thought. It doesn't sound that different than the unemployment benefits, food stamps and the public housing of today just without a cut off date. They may not have a huge homeless population but it is pretty far from a utopia. Holden's family basically gamed tax credits in order to have a fairly rudimentary life in Montana, and it sounds like underworld that exists isn't that small. Anyway, Mars may not be communist but there are some ways it lines up with the Soviet Union. One thing is Martian Congressional Republic basically could be translated as the Martian "Soviet" Republic (Soviet means council or possibly congress although it is a liberal translation). It is unclear what a "congress" means as far as the MCR, it is just a normal legislature or did actual worker congresses exist on Mars? This may be kept purposefully vague. That said, the whole "building toward a future ideal society at any cost" is very much a link with the Soviets including complaining about military spending delaying that future, where the Soviets had communism, the MCR have terraforming. Then you have the issue of full employment, which is another thing the Soviets were really into. Everyone worked in the Soviet Union, even if it was a relatively pointless job but nevertheless everyone was apart of the "greater project." Basically, Earth is more or less current day liberal democracy on its current trajectory and Mars is a weird fusion of frontier capitalism and Soviet utopianism.
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Mar 19, 2017 13:03
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Snuffman posted:By the way they talk about it in book 2, the conflicts on Earth are ongoing. There's some sort of Middle Eastern Alliance that resists the UN. It's basically just Afghanistan holding out. Avasharala basically says, "They've been sticking it to whatever authority tries to control them for centuries, they just gonna do them."
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Mar 19, 2017 17:50
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Bates posted:Well think of stay-at-home moms/dads who post incessantly on social media about their latest batch of muffins, home improvement project or garden renovation. In terms of status that's their capital, so to speak. Then there's retirees who are perfectly happy to just do whatever and people who spend their money on basically taking time off to go travelling, write a book or fulfill other dreams. I think it takes a dim view of the human condition to assume people need a paycheck to be interested in doing things. Of course not everyone would thrive without work but many don't thrive with it either. Yeah I don't disagree with you really. Expanse just takes the super pessimistic view. It's easy to see how the Earth underworld got so big though. Just turn off your tracker and move these packages for me and wow holy poo poo I'll give you for reals actual money!* * i hope u want to buy something illegal with it because if you leave a trace on the the UN system again the police will find you
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Mar 19, 2017 18:13
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Bates posted:Well think of stay-at-home moms/dads who post incessantly on social media about their latest batch of muffins, home improvement project or garden renovation. In terms of status that's their capital, so to speak. Then there's retirees who are perfectly happy to just do whatever and people who spend their money on basically taking time off to go travelling, write a book or fulfill other dreams. I think it takes a dim view of the human condition to assume people need a paycheck to be interested in doing things. Of course not everyone would thrive without work but many don't thrive with it either. Holden's parents are on Basic aren't they? They needed to game the system with Holden to afford their lifestyle, but it suggests that Basic isn't as dire as all that if you make a new purpose for yourself.
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Mar 19, 2017 18:27
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Vanderdeath posted:What are you not finding engaging about it? This isn't an accusation, I'm just curious because my best friend has also bounced off of this season after loving season 1 and I don't understand why. Melodramatic, awkward dialogue, bad acting, and it's usually boring I'll stick with it because I sort of enjoy the books, but it certainly feels like a Space show now
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Mar 19, 2017 19:08
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Eiba posted:Holden's parents are on Basic aren't they? No, there's not a collective parenting arrangement large enough to get you a big ranch.
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Mar 19, 2017 19:09
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Toast Museum posted:No, there's not a collective parenting arrangement large enough to get you a big ranch. Big* defined as 22 acres, so even that is relative to what a ranch would look like currently.
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Mar 19, 2017 19:25
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Oh, yeah, I mean big relative to the usual population density on an Earth with higher sea levels and more than four times as many people.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:53
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