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The Shortest Path posted:I think that was supposed to be an extremely sarcastic "joke" about how they would just die instead of being tortured first. Ah, good. I was trying to get that collection of words to make sense and it wasn't working.
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Mar 10, 2017 03:41
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I was going to reply to the snide piece of poo poo who tried to condescend his way out of losing an argument, but instead,there wolf posted:And the person who said we should rely on the police is where? This right here. The moment the LGBT community arms up and GROUPS up, we'll be safer. Bigots are cowardly as gently caress, and unlikely to try to mass, as LGBT rights crossed the 50% approval mark close to a decade ago at this point. Thus, making it about attacking a community, rather than a person, makes it a lot less likely that some inbred piece of poo poo is going to try and take out his daddy issues on one of us, because that will end with him outnumbered and outgunned.
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Mar 10, 2017 04:30
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Yo conservatives try and pull that "if everyone's armed no one would pull a gun on anyone" stuff and it's not going to work here either.
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Mar 10, 2017 04:47
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The Black Panthers worked well, but being black does not significantly increase suicide risk from owning a gun so I do not think the same thing is advisable for us. Grouping up and banding together to protect each other is still a good idea but the gun ownership not so much.
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Mar 10, 2017 08:50
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Is there any good books or articles about the effect black panthers had? I'll be honest they seem almost mythologized. I know they ended up getting gun control laws passed because black people with guns are scary but what exists to show a demonstrable net positive for black rights?
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Mar 10, 2017 09:14
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All of the black people that weren't killed by cops or the KKK because they had groups of armed dudes following them around, basically. It's a lot more than that but that bit alone was extremely important. I bet if you ask in the Negrotown thread Koalas or TB would love to point you to some good reading material, they'd know a hell of a lot better than I do.
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Mar 10, 2017 09:22
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The Shortest Path posted:The Black Panthers worked well, but being black does not significantly increase suicide risk from owning a gun so I do not think the same thing is advisable for us. Grouping up and banding together to protect each other is still a good idea but the gun ownership not so much. i mean yeah the panthers did a lot of good but if you're going to advocate armed resistance you should mention that the police killed a hell of a lot of panthers. not huey p. newton, admittedly, but still there was a lot of state reprisals that was part of what made the panthers not last in the long run. i don't think the new black panthers even follow the same playbook, but they have a lot of problems tbh
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Mar 10, 2017 15:34
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The Shortest Path posted:The Black Panthers worked well, but being black does not significantly increase suicide risk from owning a gun so I do not think the same thing is advisable for us. Grouping up and banding together to protect each other is still a good idea but the gun ownership not so much. also because they were an organized group with defined goals that carried their weapons essentially 'on duty' in a visible and effective manner essentially Brainiac Five posted:LGBT people forming armed vigilance committees and militias would be one thing, telling people to just buy a gun is another (especially since shooting someone in self-defense relies on the forbearance of the justice system, and pardon me for thinking that cops aren't gonna be hugely sympathetic to anyone other than a masc white gay/bi man shooting someone). For actual self defense if you can get it in your state (can in CA, for sure) then you can get a small can of CS spray for 6 dollars on amazon and that'd be my recommendation (also what my gay jewish moms got) atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 17:14
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Senju Kannon posted:i mean yeah the panthers did a lot of good but if you're going to advocate armed resistance you should mention that the police killed a hell of a lot of panthers. not huey p. newton, admittedly, but still there was a lot of state reprisals that was part of what made the panthers not last in the long run. i don't think the new black panthers even follow the same playbook, but they have a lot of problems tbh The Black Panthers came from a different time. I don't think that armed citizen or police action against LGBT groups would have public support.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:15
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The Shortest Path posted:The Black Panthers worked well, but being black does not significantly increase suicide risk from owning a gun so I do not think the same thing is advisable for us. Grouping up and banding together to protect each other is still a good idea but the gun ownership not so much. Being trans doesn't increase your suicide risk from owning a gun. Just your chances of success. Black people also increase their chances of successful suicide by having access to a gun, even if they're less likely as a demographic to attempt it.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:16
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Easy Salmon Recipe posted:The Black Panthers came from a different time. I don't think that armed citizen or police action against LGBT groups would have public support. I wouldn't be so sure; we've already got states trying to pass laws to protect motorists who try to run down BLM protesters. It doesn't take much inconvenience for the public to turn rabid.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:26
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there wolf posted:Being trans doesn't increase your suicide risk from owning a gun. Just your chances of success. Black people also increase their chances of successful suicide by having access to a gun, even if they're less likely as a demographic to attempt it. Err that's what I meant, yeah. I'm bad at phrasing things. My point was that arming a bunch of people with a much higher suicide attempt rate is going to be more of a problem in that regard. There are a lot of other differences too, especially in that trans people are not generally living in large communities together so that kind of organization is hard.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:36
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Easy Salmon Recipe posted:This right here. The moment the LGBT community arms up and GROUPS up, we'll be safer. Bigots are cowardly as gently caress, and unlikely to try to mass, as LGBT rights crossed the 50% approval mark close to a decade ago at this point. Thus, making it about attacking a community, rather than a person, makes it a lot less likely that some inbred piece of poo poo is going to try and take out his daddy issues on one of us, because that will end with him outnumbered and outgunned. Um, I think this is one of the places where we do a disservice to everyone in the acronym by treating LGBT as a single cohesive group. People might be past 50% support for the most adorable and clean-cut gay couples' ability to get married, but lesbians are still often treated like they just need a good dicking from the right man to go straight, bi people are treated as invisible or worse, and trans people currently have psychopaths monitoring our bathroom activities lest we succumb to the allure of child flesh. There are some rights and causes that unify us, but when you're talking about personal safety issues and public approval issues, the trans community has a long, long way to go to stack up with cute white gay dads in the JC Penney catalog or whatever.
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Mar 10, 2017 17:42
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Easy Salmon Recipe posted:The Black Panthers came from a different time. I don't think that armed citizen or police action against LGBT groups would have public support. I think that there are plenty of people who support gay marriage but wouldn't support making doxxing a dead letter by shooting doxxers, just like a substantial portion of white abolitionists immediately distanced themselves from John Brown and only rehabilitated him based on Southern responses to John Brown's trial. Let alone an armed set of paramilitary organizations vowing to engage in vigilante justice.
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Mar 10, 2017 18:15
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cis autodrag posted:There are some rights and causes that unify us, but when you're talking about personal safety issues and public approval issues, the trans community has a long, long way to go to stack up with cute white gay dads in the JC Penney catalog or whatever. Also, the most visible trans women are those who "pass" like Laverne Cox. Being able to go stealth is a luxury many trans women don't have. Hell, cis women who don't look feminine enough get harassed for being transgender. Trans women who don't "pass" are relegated to the shadows. We don't want them out front for selfish reasons. They'll give the other side ammunition to use in memes and Facebook posts (Is this what you want next to your daughters?) only it will be real not made up propaganda. I hate it and it is so very wrong, but I'm also very conflicted. I want people to accept that trans women and cis women are both women. You want to know what's really sad? I'm a trans woman and I pass as a dumpy, homely middle-aged woman. I really don't want to hang out with other transgender women because I don't want anyone to know I'm transgender other than my family, friends, and doctors. My wife and I are treated as a same-sex couple by everybody and it's perfect. Why mess it up with something as political as being transgender? I really want to know because I know I'm not alone. People who have privilege are loathe to step outside their comfort zone and risk giving it up. And, as always, trans men don't exist.
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Mar 10, 2017 18:19
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Keeshhound posted:I wouldn't be so sure; we've already got states trying to pass laws to protect motorists who try to run down BLM protesters. It doesn't take much inconvenience for the public to turn rabid. Those laws seem to be roundly rejected by all but the most incurable fascists. cis autodrag posted:Um, I think this is one of the places where we do a disservice to everyone in the acronym by treating LGBT as a single cohesive group. People might be past 50% support for the most adorable and clean-cut gay couples' ability to get married, but lesbians are still often treated like they just need a good dicking from the right man to go straight, bi people are treated as invisible or worse, and trans people currently have psychopaths monitoring our bathroom activities lest we succumb to the allure of child flesh. I'd be very interested in seeing the response if it's framed as a "protecting our own with the All-Powerful and Glorious Second Amendment without GUBMINT interference". At the very least, they frothing right wing lunatics would get called their hypocrisy if they had a problem with gay bashers getting bashed back, given that they tug their crooked, flaccid, little dicks raw every time some inbred farmer decides to turn his trailer into The Independent Nation of Dumbfuckistan.
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Mar 10, 2017 19:28
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Easy Salmon Recipe posted:I'd be very interested in seeing the response if it's framed as a "protecting our own with the All-Powerful and Glorious Second Amendment without GUBMINT interference". At the very least, they frothing right wing lunatics would get called their hypocrisy if they had a problem with gay bashers getting bashed back, given that they tug their crooked, flaccid, little dicks raw every time some inbred farmer decides to turn his trailer into The Independent Nation of Dumbfuckistan. They already get called on their hypocrisy on everything else and it never matters. 
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Mar 10, 2017 19:40
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ToxicFrog posted:They already get called on their hypocrisy on everything else and it never matters. In this case, though, I remember a few pro-gun nuts claiming that LGBT people should arm themselves, so it's less "Well, let me clarify my position" and more "...OK, I said that, but I just wanted to score points on a national tragedy, not actually see it happen!  "
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Mar 10, 2017 20:26
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Easy Salmon Recipe posted:Those laws seem to be roundly rejected by all but the most incurable fascists. Your optimism is inspiring, but I'm going to keep expecting the worst all the same. It didn't take much for enough people to be willing overlook incurable facism in a presidential candidate, and I really don't expect much better out of the general public on this subject, either.
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Mar 10, 2017 20:54
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Easy Salmon Recipe posted:Those laws seem to be roundly rejected by all but the most incurable fascists. I think you'd see a lot of queer people get shot by hillbillies claiming that the queer person was menacing them and they had to stand their ground.
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Mar 10, 2017 21:24
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cis autodrag posted:I think you'd see a lot of queer people get shot by hillbillies claiming that the queer person was menacing them and they had to stand their ground. Gay panic becomes an acceptable legal defense again.
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Mar 10, 2017 22:27
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hangedman1984 posted:Gay panic becomes an acceptable legal defense again. Shorten it to just "panic" and you're pretty close to most stand your ground defenses already.
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Mar 10, 2017 22:57
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cis autodrag posted:I think you'd see a lot of queer people get shot by hillbillies claiming that the queer person was menacing them and they had to stand their ground. We're getting shot anyway. I'm good with shooting back. Feel free to try and hug it out with the fascists, though.
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Mar 10, 2017 23:37
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Easy Salmon Recipe posted:We're getting shot anyway. I'm good with shooting back. Settle down, Beavis.
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Mar 10, 2017 23:40
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Easy Salmon Recipe posted:We're getting shot anyway. That isn't guaranteed though? While the number is alarming it's still not the majority or anything. You should use the life you have to make a meaningful improvement to the situation rather than dreaming of the day you get to gun down some rednecks in a blaze of glory, because it probably wont work that way.
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Mar 10, 2017 23:45
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South Dakota sez: it's ok for a government-funded agency to discriminate as long as it's for religious reasons! https://www.aclusd.org/en/news/governor-daugaard-signs-discriminatory-senate-bill-149
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Mar 10, 2017 23:47
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Brainiac Five posted:Settle down, Beavis. Nah.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:14
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hangedman1984 posted:Gay panic becomes an acceptable legal defense again. In Queensland, it never stopped 
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Mar 11, 2017 14:19
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come see my cover band Gay Panic! At The Disco next saturday.
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Mar 13, 2017 15:58
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cis autodrag posted:come see my cover band Gay Panic! At The Disco next saturday. So Panic! At The Disco? 
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Mar 13, 2017 16:15
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cis autodrag posted:come see my cover band Gay Panic! At The Disco next saturday. Man, if it wasn't for the lovely legal history that really would be a pretty kickass band name.
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Mar 13, 2017 16:21
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If you aren't listening to PWR BTTM you're doing it wrong. Queer punk is one of the only punk sub-genres that has really survived the transition to the 21st century.
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Mar 13, 2017 16:22
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Keeshhound posted:Man, if it wasn't for the lovely legal history that really would be a pretty kickass band name. If we want to go darker, I could name my queercore band Twinkie Defense.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:50
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Rent-A-Cop posted:If you aren't listening to PWR BTTM you're doing it wrong. I loving love pwr bttm. Dairy Queen is the best song.
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Mar 13, 2017 18:19
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About the "why white gays" argument 2 pages back; transphobic cis minority queers (and non-queers) get just as annoyingly defensive at the implication that they're transphobic. And if I had a dollar for every non-white (or even specifically non-anglo) transphobe who justifies it with "you wouldn't see trannies in MY culture/ethnic group/country of origin" or some poo poo, I'd probably be able to pay for srs in loonies. Basically it's possible to be a shithead towards groups outside your own minority group and still be a minority. There's good reasons to treat white gay dudes with suspicion, but singling them out for transphobia is pretty lol.
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Mar 17, 2017 19:00
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Agnosticnixie posted:About the "why white gays" argument 2 pages back; transphobic cis minority queers (and non-queers) get just as annoyingly defensive at the implication that they're transphobic. And if I had a dollar for every non-white (or even specifically non-anglo) transphobe who justifies it with "you wouldn't see trannies in MY culture/ethnic group/country of origin" or some poo poo, I'd probably be able to pay for srs in loonies. There are transphobic people who are transgender, especially if they "pass" really well. It's everywhere right now to be honest.
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Mar 17, 2017 19:57
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Aleph Null posted:There are transphobic people who are transgender, especially if they "pass" really well. It's everywhere right now to be honest. Self loathing of that sort is different (also it has little to do with passing specifically, you just have to look at poo poo that was happening 10 years ago with Susan Stanton or the reaction of former older transitioner du jour Renee Richards to someone new who largely fit the same mold taking the limelight)
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Mar 17, 2017 20:10
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Aleph Null posted:There are transphobic people who are transgender on these very forums even.
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Mar 17, 2017 21:13
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Culture at large is transphobic. Humans pick up the values of the surrounding culture(s), even if they disagree with them. So everyone is transphobic. The important thing to do, is to recognize and fight against this.
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Mar 19, 2017 04:10
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Thalantos posted:Culture at large is transphobic. I tend not to think of transphobia out of ignorance as the same thing, as it can generally be corrected. I'm thinking only of people who hold a genuine hatred in their hearts for transgender people.
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Mar 19, 2017 16:23
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