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Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
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33 | 6.38% |
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343 | 66.34% |
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71 | 13.73% |
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Kilroy posted:The left already did come up with a solid candidate to run against her, and you've just handwaved away what they did to beat him, and you're already gearing up to blame the left for it when they do it again in 2020. You know for all the blame you heap on leftists for not steering the Democratic party in the right direction, you're awfully quick to ignore the machinations of the people actually leading the party, who have made it clear they'll keep the hold they've got on it even if it means the Democrats are a minority party forever. Where are these charismatic and powerful campaigners going to come from, Main Paineframe? The Democrats have done a great job making sure that the people with the most influence in the party, and therefore the people most likely to rise to national prominence within it, are the ones who put the interests of the donor class above all else. Maybe it's time to pin the failures of the Democratic party on the people who actually loving lead it, rather than on a left that has tried but so far failed to put it back on track? Expecting leftists to reliably come out and vote for center-right candidates and volunteer for their campaigns is of course incredibly stupid, but what's really infuriating is chastising the left for "infighting" and "apathy" when exactly what any reasonable person would expect to happen, happens. There actually isn't much infighting on the left - you kinda have to have something to fight over, like power, and the left doesn't have a hell of a lot of that, Main Paineframe. The "infighting" you're moaning about is centrists wagging their fingers at anyone to the left of Chuck Schumer who wants a say in the direction of the party. The apathy is about what you'd expect to happen when people who don't feel like they have any good choices to make at the ballot box, don't loving go to the ballot box, don't volunteer for campaigns, and when both major political parties are actively hostile to them, don't bother running for office. Where will these charismatic and powerful campaigners come from? Chicago, apparently. Bernie had a popular message, but he wasn't as good of a campaigner or politician as Obama was, and his campaign made some crucial mistakes. We're sure not gonna get more winners on the left by ignoring Bernie's weaknesses and pretending he was absolutely perfect in every way and was just robbed by the invincible, unbeatable establishment. Sure, the existing Democrats generally favored and endorsed Clinton (though there were plenty of exceptions), but that's kind of the definition of being an outsider candidate, so there's no point whining about it being unfair. Taking over the Democratic Party is what the left should be doing. The establishment centrists think their way is the right way - they won't change until they're forced to by being in the minority.
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Mar 19, 2017 16:43
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MPF are you going to backup your comments?
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Mar 19, 2017 16:57
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Main Paineframe posted:Where will these charismatic and powerful campaigners come from? Chicago, apparently. Bernie had a popular message, but he wasn't as good of a campaigner or politician as Obama was, and his campaign made some crucial mistakes. We're sure not gonna get more winners on the left by ignoring Bernie's weaknesses and pretending he was absolutely perfect in every way and was just robbed by the invincible, unbeatable establishment. Sure, the existing Democrats generally favored and endorsed Clinton (though there were plenty of exceptions), but that's kind of the definition of being an outsider candidate, so there's no point whining about it being unfair. The dems did more than generally favor hillary, they broke their own rules to benefit her. It's really hard to get an objective view of bernie's strengths and weaknesses when the contest was tilted in Hillary's favor by an unknown degree. Unfortunately, dems are interested in making sure we never know exactly how much the DNC intervened on her behalf.
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Mar 19, 2017 17:00
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:A huge self-own was not hashing out the email poo poo in the primaries. Who knows what happened behind the scenes but Bernie doing a full attack on it would have massively helped her in the long run. Instead she changed her story 10 times and never put the issue to bed. It's incredibly telling already that the Clinton camp considered the Sanders campaign "the most negative campaign any democrat had ever run" or some poo poo during primaries when the closest he came to a direct personal attack was making GBS threads on the fact that Clinton gets her advice on foreign policy from loving mass murderers who she happens to be bffs with. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 17:03
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Condiv posted:The dems did more than generally favor hillary, they broke their own rules to benefit her. It's really hard to get an objective view of bernie's strengths and weaknesses when the contest was tilted in Hillary's favor by an unknown degree. Unfortunately, dems are interested in making sure we never know exactly how much the DNC intervened on her behalf. The primary wasn't close. Yes, the Democratic establishment favored Hillary, but it shouldn't be surprising that career Democratic party workers would prefer the person who has a long history in the party rather than the guy who joined them just to run for president (and who left right after!). The right answer is for leftists to take over the party. If we remain outsiders we will always be treated like this. And we need to stop treating Bernie like he was the second coming. I've been a Bernie Sanders fan for ages, but he seems like every bit as much of an ideologue as the tea party assholes who are willing to burn the country to the ground, he's just one with policies I agree with. I have a hard time seeing someone like that actually accomplishing much as president without a big movement behind them like the tea party had.
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Mar 19, 2017 19:35
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DeadlyMuffin posted:The primary wasn't close. Yes, the Democratic establishment favored Hillary, but it shouldn't be surprising that career Democratic party workers would prefer the person who has a long history in the party rather than the guy who joined them just to run for president (and who left right after!). it should be surprising since the dem party charter says they're supposed to remain neutral during the primary and not influence it. donna brazile leaking debate questions to hillary clinton goes far beyond "preference" to collusion. quote:The right answer is for leftists to take over the party. If we remain outsiders we will always be treated like this. i don't think bernie should run for pres in 2020, but he may be our only choice in the worst case. Condiv fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 19:53
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If the Clintonites wanted to be subtle they'd try to run Booker instead of positioning them to be able to cram Chelsea down everyone's throats. Then they'd make sure Chelsea is at state or treasury. They massively overplayed their hand in 2016 despite showing that they were absolutely able to retake the reins of the party and fill their opponent's cabinet entirely with their people without having to have a Clinton sitting in the big chair.
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Mar 19, 2017 19:59
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Condiv posted:i don't think bernie should run for pres in 2020, but he may be our only choice in the worst case. Bernie couldn't come close to beating Hillary, and Hillary lost to Trump. By what logic could you see that working well at all? If Bernie actually wants to change the Democratic party he should've stayed a member after the election.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:01
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Bernie couldn't come close to beating Hillary, and Hillary lost to Trump. By what logic could you see that working well at all? bernie was a last minute protest campaign that had the dem party apparatus p much aligned against it. i think he did p well considering, and if it was 2020, bernie would definitely win a primary against hillary (she can't even argue she's electable anymore). like i don't know if you're aware, but bernie's favoribility since he was in the primary has skyrocketed, to the point where he might even beat out obama's favoribility. what's hillary's favoribility? well, the last polling huffpo has for her had her at negative favorability. hillary would be dead in the water compared to bernie in 2020 if it came to that. hopefully it doesn't and we have a younger leftist candidate available by then. Condiv fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 20:03
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He lost against a party establishment that thought "he's poor, he doesn't think central american death squads are cool and good, and Hawaii is a white state" was solid oppo. I think they might not be the people who are the most in touch with reality. That said, he ideally should only act as an elder statesman of the Democratic party left for 2018 and forward. Hell, if the clintons try to ram Hillary again him not running and letting a younger progressive take the helm gives the center left ammo against the third wayists.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:06
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Condiv posted:bernie was a last minute protest campaign that had the dem party apparatus p much aligned against it. i think he did p well considering, and if it was 2020, bernie would definitely win a primary against hillary (she can't even argue she's electable anymore). I think he did pretty poorly considering how much baggage Hillary Clinton had. He did bring out the misogynistic left wing in full force though, that was a hell of an eye opener. Then he quit the party again, because he'd rather be able to say "I told you so" than actually take part in making things better. If either Hillary or Bernie runs in 2020 it will be a disgrace. If either one of them actually wins the primary it would be an abject failure on the part of the Democratic party and we will deserve 4 more years of Trump. Agnosticnixie posted:That said, he ideally should only act as an elder statesman of the Democratic party left for 2018 and forward. I completely agree, which is why I was so disgusted when he quit the Democratic party.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:08
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Wow, literally baddems.txtquote:That said, he ideally should only act as an elder statesman of the Democratic party left for 2018 and forward.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:10
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I think he did pretty poorly considering how much baggage Hillary Clinton had. He did bring out the misogynistic left wing in full force though, that was a hell of an eye opener. Then he quit the party again, because he'd rather be able to say "I told you so" than actually take part in making things better. uh.. you say you're a bernie fan yet you're spouting baddem talking points... so, you are aware that he was elected as an independent and he feels he should complete his term as an independent, but that he will run as a dem in 2018 right? also, the bernie bro myth was just that, a myth. you are also aware that bernie has been fighting hard, not just on his own behalf but on behalf of the democratic party, against donald trump. the WV townhall could be considered a masterstroke rebuttal of donald trump's listening session. dems should be on their knees thanking god every day that he has gifted them bernie sanders. it will be bad if bernie has to run in 2020, and it would be a disgrace, but only because the hillary wing had managed to staunch the growth of the left in the dem party. bernie would win the primary and beat trump if he had to though. he is just that popular, and he's bringing out everyone. Condiv fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 20:14
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guys guys get ready to have your minds blown bernie would have won
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Mar 19, 2017 20:18
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Condiv posted:uh.. you say you're a bernie fan yet you're spouting baddem talking points... What's baddem? I'm pointing out what I saw. I, with my own eyes, saw some pretty misogynistic poo poo from Bernie supporters directed at Hillary. I don't think Bernie supporters were much of a factor in her loss, but as a woman who cares about politics it was pretty depressing to see. I think you're massively overestimating Bernie's popularity. I'd be very happy if he ran as a Democrat in 2018, but it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't. He said he'd run as a Democrat in future elections during the primary, when the question could be geared towards future presidential elections, has he said so after Trump won? That'd be great.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:26
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DeadlyMuffin posted:What's baddem? I'm pointing out what I saw. I, with my own eyes, saw some pretty misogynistic poo poo from Bernie supporters directed at Hillary. I don't think Bernie supporters were much of a factor in her loss, but as a woman who cares about politics it was pretty depressing to see. Bullshit. The Clinton camp kept heaping the mysogynistic poo poo right, left and center anytime it looked like they might not win the vote with women under 60. Literally the only hardcore berners I know are women. Clintonian faux-leftists would try to call loving Kshama Sawant a white brocialist if they thought they could get away with it. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 20:28
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Agnosticnixie posted:Bullshit. The Clinton camp kept heaping the mysogynistic poo poo right, left and center anytime it looked like they might not win the vote with women under 60. Wait, so did the Clinton camp over emphasize it (probably) or did it not exist? You should pick one and stick with it. I'm not saying it flipped the election, I'm saying it was there, and it was gross. Literally the only hardcore berners I know are men. Guess we have an anecdote standoff. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 20:30
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Literally the only hardcore berners I know are men. Guess we have an anecdote standoff. Glad you're willing to acknowledge you're rolling entirely off the power of anecdote.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:33
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Agnosticnixie posted:Glad you're willing to acknowledge you're rolling entirely off the power of anecdote. Absolutely. Go back and re-read what I said. I'm talking about what I saw with my own eyes. I'll say it again: I don't think Bernie supporters were much of a factor in her loss, but as a woman who cares about politics it was pretty depressing to see.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:34
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Agnosticnixie posted:Bullshit. The Clinton camp kept heaping the mysogynistic poo poo right, left and center anytime it looked like they might not win the vote with women under 60. is this even english
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Mar 19, 2017 20:36
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DeadlyMuffin posted:What's baddem? I'm pointing out what I saw. I, with my own eyes, saw some pretty misogynistic poo poo from Bernie supporters directed at Hillary. I don't think Bernie supporters were much of a factor in her loss, but as a woman who cares about politics it was pretty depressing to see. misogyny was going to become a lot more visible in this kind of race, but misogynists were a tiny, tiny minority of his supporters. there are a lot of bernie posters in c-spam who are women. there are a lot of bernie posters that are PoC too. the myth that bernie attracted only misogynist white males was propagated by the clinton campaign to smear bernie. it's what she does. she did it to obama and his supporters in 2008 too.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:42
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Condiv posted:misogyny was going to become a lot more visible in this kind of race, but misogynists were a tiny, tiny minority of his supporters. there are a lot of bernie posters in c-spam who are women. there are a lot of bernie posters that are PoC too. the myth that bernie attracted only misogynist white males was propagated by the clinton campaign to smear bernie. it's what she does. she did it to obama and his supporters in 2008 too. I didn't say anything contradicting any of this. I definitely never said that Bernie only attracted misogynistic white males, I'm sure they were a small minority. But take a good hard look at what happens when a woman says "I, with my own eyes, saw some pretty misogynistic poo poo from Bernie supporters directed at Hillary. I don't think Bernie supporters were much of a factor in her loss, but as a woman who cares about politics it was pretty depressing to see." I immediately get shouted down by people telling me it's a myth. I never claimed what I saw represented all Bernie supporters, or even anything but a small minority, but I've got people falling over themselves to tell me how wrong I am.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:49
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I didn't say anything contradicting any of this. I definitely never said that Bernie only attracted misogynistic white males, I'm sure they were a small minority. But take a good hard look at what happens when a woman says "I, with my own eyes, saw some pretty misogynistic poo poo from Bernie supporters directed at Hillary. I don't think Bernie supporters were much of a factor in her loss, but as a woman who cares about politics it was pretty depressing to see." I immediately get shouted down by people telling me it's a myth. I'm a woman. I'm also highly suspicious of Clinton throwing accusations of mysogyny around when she was already doing this to Obama in 2008 the moment she started dipping in polls. Especially as she started diving into racism at the same time she was crying wolf. But okay, on a personal level I'm sure it's a possibility.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:51
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I didn't say anything contradicting any of this. I definitely never said that Bernie only attracted misogynistic white males, I'm sure they were a small minority. But take a good hard look at what happens when a woman says "I, with my own eyes, saw some pretty misogynistic poo poo from Bernie supporters directed at Hillary. I don't think Bernie supporters were much of a factor in her loss, but as a woman who cares about politics it was pretty depressing to see." I immediately get shouted down by people telling me it's a myth. DeadlyMuffin posted:He did bring out the misogynistic left wing in full force though, that was a hell of an eye opener I guess it was this sentence that gave me the impression that you were saying that a good deal of bernie's supporters were misogynist. why do you intimate that he was especially apt at bringing out this miniscule minority of his base?
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Mar 19, 2017 20:56
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Condiv posted:I guess it was this sentence that gave me the impression that you were saying that a good deal of bernie's supporters were misogynist. why do you intimate that he was especially apt at bringing out this miniscule minority of his base? Your impression is incorrect, I was not saying that a good deal of Bernie's supporters were misogynists. I think the reason the primary brought out the misogynistic left wing is a combination of gender being an issue in the campaign, with Hillary potentially being the first female president (and some women rightfully being excited about that), the misogyny of the Trump campaign bringing that kind of discussion to the fore on both sides, and some people who didn't like Clinton using her gender as one more thing to attack her about rather than attack her on policy. You'll notice that none of that has to do with Bernie personally, but it did expose a set of attitudes I had not really seen before in people on the left. Like I said, it was a real eye opener for me.
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Mar 19, 2017 21:05
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Your impression is incorrect, I was not saying that a good deal of Bernie's supporters were misogynists. I think the reason the primary brought out the misogynistic left wing is a combination of gender being an issue in the campaign, with Hillary potentially being the first female president (and some women rightfully being excited about that), the misogyny of the Trump campaign bringing that kind of discussion to the fore on both sides, and some people who didn't like Clinton using her gender as one more thing to attack her about rather than attack her on policy. so his candidacy didn't bring misogynists out at all, hillary's candidacy just made the ones in bernie's camp more visible to you. there were misogynists in hillary's camp too
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Mar 19, 2017 21:09
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I completely agree, which is why I was so disgusted when he quit the Democratic party.
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Mar 19, 2017 21:09
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yes but a woman said a thing so
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Mar 19, 2017 21:13
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DeadlyMuffin posted:What's baddem? I'm pointing out what I saw. I, with my own eyes, saw some pretty misogynistic poo poo from Bernie supporters directed at Hillary. I don't think Bernie supporters were much of a factor in her loss, but as a woman who cares about politics it was pretty depressing to see. According to a Fox news poll he is the most popular politician in America. http://www.teenvogue.com/story/fox-news-poll-bernie-sanders-planned-parenthood-donald-trump Also wasn't that guy from the Wire pretty misogynistic when he assaulted that Sander's supporter? or are you just making poo poo up like typical centrists to whine about supposed misogyny when really you just want lower taxes and to pay less for avacados. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 21:18
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Condiv posted:so his candidacy didn't bring misogynists out at all, hillary's candidacy just made the ones in bernie's camp more visible to you. If it would make you feel better to word it as "the 2016 presidential election made misogynists on the left much more visible to me, since I noticed that attitude among some vocal Bernie Sanders supporters" then feel free. I don't think Gloria Steinem is a misogynist, although I do think this is an idiotic thing to say. Kilroy posted:He runs in the Democratic primary for his Senate seat every term, and wins. He's a Democrat in all but name which is better than being a loving Blue Dog. I think he should be trying to change the party from the inside. I was really hopeful that he would do that, and was very disappointed that he left. And if your definition of "Blue Dog" is "anyone who is an actual member of the Democratic party" then I don't know what to tell you. Polygynous posted:yes but a woman said a thing so Did I hit a little close to home for you? DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 21:24
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Friendly reminder that the Democrats would rather lose elections than give an inch to the progressive wing
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Mar 19, 2017 23:03
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Bernie couldn't come close to beating Hillary, and Hillary lost to Trump. By what logic could you see that working well at all? Most of Trump's attacks that slew Hillary wouldn't have worked on Sanders because Sanders doesn't have the appearance of impropriety like she did, and also there aren't decades of character assassination on him
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Mar 19, 2017 23:54
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Half of it wasn't even Trump saying anything, it was AP and NY Times daily stories about "what if THIS is the thing that catches Clinton" so that even though it was all bogus swing voters got the impression that she was just as corrupt as he was. The media got Trump elected by smoothing off his edges whenever he went too far and giving the constant impression that there must be something Hillary is doing if there's all this smoke we are making. The only thing that REALLY got them offended was when he got them together to talk about Obama's birth certificate and used their dumb asses to give a commercial for his hotel and then left. I agree that wouldn't have worked nearly as well on Sanders but it's moot now unless the Dems are truly stupid and go back to the Clinton well. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 23:57
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Radish posted:I agree that wouldn't have worked nearly as well on Sanders but it's moot now unless the Dems are truly stupid and go back to the Clinton well. Bad news, probably
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Mar 20, 2017 00:00
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DeadlyMuffin posted:The primary wasn't close. Yes, the Democratic establishment favored Hillary, but it shouldn't be surprising that career Democratic party workers would prefer the person who has a long history in the party rather than the guy who joined them just to run for president (and who left right after!). After President Obama we need an ideologue. Most of us are tired of compromising on a compromise of a compromise. We don't want to start on the fifty yard line anymore, and when real leftists talk like leftists our base gets energized. 40% of Americans have a more positive view of socialism than capitalism. Dems can't stop us if we all work together.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:02
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:Friendly reminder that the Democrats would rather lose elections than give an inch to the progressive wing Yeah it's not like the Democratic party donors in the past months said "maybe you should give the progressives what they want", it's all apologia about how they didn't have the right message/delivery/tone etc. The party's run by a marketing team when you'd want it to optimally be run by scholars
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Mar 20, 2017 00:09
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Wait, so did the Clinton camp over emphasize it (probably) or did it not exist? You should pick one and stick with it. I'm not saying it flipped the election, I'm saying it was there, and it was gross. As usual, Hillary Clinton is a coward who does nothing but make excuses and refuse to face up to her own culpability for her loss, and Bernie Sanders is a flawless angel who was utterly cheated and robbed by the insurmountable power of the weak and pathetic centrists who are literally incapable of winning elections. If the left wants power, it needs to win, not sit around whining about how they lost but it's not fair and the centrists should surrender all power to them anyway. Yes, the big donors and the establishment favored the establishment candidate - but that's the nature of the game, and something the left knew full well was going to happen.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:24
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Fiction posted:It's not "whining about the primary" to correctly point out that the Dem leadership is still composed of politicians who will gently caress over their constituents for a buck because what are they gonna do, vote for Trump??? Pretty sure Haitians aren't their constituents
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Mar 20, 2017 00:27
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Main Paineframe posted:As usual, Hillary Clinton is a coward who does nothing but make excuses and refuse to face up to her own culpability for her loss, and Bernie Sanders is a flawless angel who was utterly cheated and robbed by the insurmountable power of the weak and pathetic centrists who are literally incapable of winning elections. Now please answer my question. How did Bernie have establishment support? Also I am more then happy to continue the fight to ensure centrist sociopaths are marginalized or purged from the party.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:53
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Your impression is incorrect, I was not saying that a good deal of Bernie's supporters were misogynists. I think the reason the primary brought out the misogynistic left wing is a combination of gender being an issue in the campaign, with Hillary potentially being the first female president (and some women rightfully being excited about that), the misogyny of the Trump campaign bringing that kind of discussion to the fore on both sides, and some people who didn't like Clinton using her gender as one more thing to attack her about rather than attack her on policy. Bernie bringing out misogynistic people and subsuming that crap into a cool and good leftist economic program is precisely what needs to happen. Bernie campaign could only be perceived as misogynistic by the irrelevant facts that he was running against a woman and that some misogynistic people ended up supporting it. But that is how you steal that nasty energy from an horrible jerk like Trump and channel it into something good. That is precisely how you undermine misogyny as a political tool. Fados fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 00:53
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