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Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed. |
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| Jeremy Corbyn |
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95 | 18.63% |
| Dennis Skinner |
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53 | 10.39% |
| Angus Robertson |
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20 | 3.92% |
| Tim Farron |
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9 | 1.76% |
| Paul Ukips |
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7 | 1.37% |
| Robot Lenin |
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105 | 20.59% |
| Tony Blair |
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28 | 5.49% |
| Pissflaps |
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193 | 37.84% |
| Total: | 510 votes | ||
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ThomasPaine posted:I think one thing that really should happen is the Labour left should stop trying to tell (because the media will ignore or distort them) and start showing. Foodbanks, community work etc etc etc. They have the resources to do it after the Corbyn influx. Make it loving obvious that Labour is actively helping people on a day-to-day basis in a way that cannot be ignored. This is something that Momentum are apparently gearing up to try and do, and I'm really interested to see how it goes. It would be a great example about how Labour affiliates can complement the activity of the local party, which seems to be much more focused on campaigning and local government. Back in the early days before hope was crushed, I vaguely recall some interesting stuff by Corbyn and McDonnel about how they saw a much expanded future for unions as a 'cradle to grave' social and community support, rather than being limited to representing workers, so I think it's something that would have their support too.
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Mar 19, 2017 21:32
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What happened to that plan where all the new labour members/momentum were going to go and do charity work to spread Labour policies? Is that happening?
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Mar 19, 2017 21:34
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Prince John posted:This is something that Momentum are apparently gearing up to try and do, and I'm really interested to see how it goes. What are they waiting for?
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Mar 19, 2017 21:35
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Pissflaps posted:Because, crap as she is, she still looks better than the alternative. Telling.
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Mar 19, 2017 21:35
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Pissflaps posted:What are they waiting for? Corbyn to dial a particular telephone number and say the words 'Execute Order 1917' which will activate all the cadre. Unfortunately it's a touchscreen phone and he can't figure out how to unlock it.
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Mar 19, 2017 21:37
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Pissflaps posted:What are they waiting for? They've been doing lots of other stuff, perhaps most notably a ton of phone-bank work for the recent by-elections. I'm not a member but I seem to get their newsletters from having expressed an interest in Corbyn at the time of his leadership bid, and they do seem to do a ton of political work 'on the ground'. That was also corroborated by a survey posted in here a few months ago, showing that Momentum members were the most locally-active cohort of the Labour party membership.
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Mar 19, 2017 21:51
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Prince John posted:They've been doing lots of other stuff, perhaps most notably a ton of phone-bank work for the recent by-elections. Yeah Momentum have been quite focused on other stuff like a leadership election, by-elections, sorting out their own internal democracy and generally trying to cement the power of the left within the Labour party. They've been busy.
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Mar 19, 2017 21:53
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Prince John posted:They've been doing lots of other stuff, perhaps most notably a ton of phone-bank work for the recent by-elections. Helps explain what happened in Copeland.
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Mar 19, 2017 22:02
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Pissflaps posted:Helps explain what happened in Copeland. Clearly every party that loses an election should cease electoral activities as being a waste of time.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:15
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Anyone else see Blair on Marr? Praised Osborne for being super clever and defended his new job at the Evening Standard. If he's trying to convince anyone that Cameron wasn't essentially Blair with a different colour tie he's not doing a very good job.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:26
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Prince John posted:Clearly every party that loses an election should cease electoral activities as being a waste of time. Momentum isn't the Labour Party. Not yet anyway. jabby posted:If he's trying to convince anyone that Cameron wasn't essentially Blair with a different colour tie he's not doing a very good job. Blair wouldn't have lost the EU referendum.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:27
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Pissflaps posted:Blair wouldn't have lost the EU referendum. 
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Mar 19, 2017 23:34
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spectralent posted:To be fair if you don't know much political history you don't know who Attlee is and in living memory your options are probably Corbyn, Blair, Miliband or Brown. I would hope that Corbyn fans had a slightly more in-depth knowledge of the history of the Labour Party than the average punter off the street, but maybe I'm asking too much. For that matter it's just as terrible how poorly Lansbury did with both - he'd have been in my top three easily, but you can at least excuse that because he was never PM.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:33
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goddamnedtwisto posted:For that matter it's just as terrible how poorly Lansbury did with both - he'd have been in my top three easily, but you can at least excuse that because he was never PM.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:37
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I would hope that Corbyn fans had a slightly more in-depth knowledge of the history of the Labour Party than the average punter off the street, but maybe I'm asking too much. I don't know; supposedly Corbyn got a lot of young people and people who'd felt disenfranchised by Blair in. I wouldn't assume those were necessarily highly politically interested groups, by default. It's probably better that people who don't care about politics are interested in Labour.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:39
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Pissflaps posted:Blair wouldn't have lost the EU referendum. Given how badly he poo poo the bed in terms of messaging once Campbell and Mandelson left, i wouldn't be so sure.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:39
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spectralent posted:I don't know; supposedly Corbyn got a lot of young people and people who'd felt disenfranchised by Blair in. I wouldn't assume those were necessarily highly politically interested groups, by default. It's probably better that people who don't care about politics are interested in Labour. They're interested in politics, but they're not experts of history. Which is why accusing them of being 1970s/80s style trots is so absurd and bewildering.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:41
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They saw a hashtag and thought it would be a jolly wheeze. Nobody told them they'd have to actually go and vote. Ugh.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:44
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Lord of the Llamas posted:They're interested in politics, but they're not experts of history. Which is why accusing them of being 1970s/80s style trots is so absurd and bewildering. I think this is one of those things that's hard to disentangle, and I'll use my sister as an example. She's a very political person; she has strong views on the necessity of the welfare state, labour rights and international diplomacy, energy and transport, and so on. There's very little I'd say she had no opinion on. She doesn't think of herself as political, though, and doesn't know any of "the lingo". It was only a couple of years ago she asked me what "left and right" meant. She generally likes Corbyn, because a lot of his views, like nationalising the railways, putting taxes up to fund public services, and the importance of mental health, match her own, and not because of any leftist sympathies; I honestly doubt she thinks in those terms. I see a lot of people a bit younger than me like her; know what they want, but don't know what it's called. It'd be wrong to call them politically uninterested people, but often they don't consider the things they feel strongly about to be politics, so it's kind of hard to phrase it.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:48
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spectralent posted:I don't know; supposedly Corbyn got a lot of young people and people who'd felt disenfranchised by Blair in. I wouldn't assume those were necessarily highly politically interested groups, by default. It's probably better that people who don't care about politics are interested in Labour. I worry deeply about mass political movements with no context as to why they are where they are. LemonDrizzle posted:Really? I mean, yes, the poplar rebellion was very good but it's kind of outweighed by the insanity of his pacifism. In a country less than 20 years from World War I unilateralism wasn't just sane, it was wildly popular, and Labour picked up seats on that platform. Attlee continued the policy (albeit moderated slightly) right up to the annexation of Czechoslovakia. If it comes to it, you'd have thought his condemnation of direct action against the BUF would resonate like gently caress with an electorate who wring their hands over whether or not it's right to deny the EDL their "right" to march down Brick Lane.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:53
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spectralent posted:I think this is one of those things that's hard to disentangle, and I'll use my sister as an example. She's a very political person; she has strong views on the necessity of the welfare state, labour rights and international diplomacy, energy and transport, and so on. There's very little I'd say she had no opinion on. She doesn't think of herself as political, though, and doesn't know any of "the lingo". It was only a couple of years ago she asked me what "left and right" meant. She generally likes Corbyn, because a lot of his views, like nationalising the railways, putting taxes up to fund public services, and the importance of mental health, match her own, and not because of any leftist sympathies; I honestly doubt she thinks in those terms. And this is why polls showing people considering themselves as "centre" are such nonsense. Most people had no loving clue where their beliefs stand. But people certainly don't want to self label as being "extreme".
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Mar 19, 2017 23:54
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my sister is (or was, i guess, she's more critical lately) also a recent corbyn fan i doubt she knows what neoliberalism is, but she's annoyed about spending cuts and privatisation unfortunately it's basically useless to vote labour down here. it's probably more useful to strategically vote lib dem to try and keep the tories out instead
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Mar 19, 2017 23:55
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Pissflaps posted:Blair wouldn't have lost the EU referendum. Unfortunately the Tories appointed Cameron leader instead, although I'm sure Tone would have been up for it.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:57
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Noxville posted:Unfortunately the Tories appointed Cameron leader instead, although I'm sure Tone would have been up for it. Big Tone did more to help people than Corbyn will ever accomplish.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:58
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goddamnedtwisto posted:In a country less than 20 years from World War I unilateralism wasn't just sane, it was wildly popular
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Mar 20, 2017 00:03
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I worry deeply about mass political movements with no context as to why they are where they are. I think if you ever want anything else you're going to be waiting a long time, honestly. Most people don't know a lot of things. I'd go so far as to say all people don't know a lot of things, given the limit of human knowledge, but most people don't know a ton about politics, but everyone is political. It's going to be a thing forever, probably. Lord of the Llamas posted:And this is why polls showing people considering themselves as "centre" are such nonsense. Most people had no loving clue where their beliefs stand. But people certainly don't want to self label as being "extreme". It's one of those things you can watch for in trump, too. Wait until he's asked a question about something he probably knows nothing about then count until he makes a noncomittal golden-mean type answer that's designed to make him sound smart like he's considering all the options while hiding the fact he doesn't know what the options are.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:04
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LemonDrizzle posted:Really? I mean, yes, the poplar rebellion was very good but it's kind of outweighed by the insanity of his pacifism.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:25
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spectralent posted:It was only a couple of years ago she asked me what "left and right" meant.  There's the historical definition as sitting on the left or right of the court, with the religious connotations of sheep and goats. There's the actual religious use, with right being structured and left being individualistic, there's the economic use of freedom vs. intervention which goes in the opposite direction, and there's the colloquial use where far-right means foreigns out and far-left means hippies and neoliberals/tankies don't really go anywhere. The only thing close to a comprehensive definition that I can think of is that right is pro-hierarchy and left is anti-hierarchy, and even that leaves some glaring examples that fit nowhere.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:26
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spectralent posted:To be fair if you don't know much political history you don't know who Attlee is and in living memory your options are probably Corbyn, Blair, Miliband or Brown.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:26
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jBrereton posted:who the gently caress doesn't know who Attlee is lol you learn about the founding of the NHS at school We didn't.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:28
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jBrereton posted:who the gently caress doesn't know who Attlee is lol you learn about the founding of the NHS at school 1. I'm pretty sure we didn't, unless it was really briefly mentioned at the end of the WW2 module. 2. Not everyone does great at school or subsequently remembers all of it and I think those people should still be allowed to join political parties if they want. Guavanaut posted:I'm still not sure! Yeah; I kind of covered it as a laissez faire vs interventionist thing but mentioned there's other aspects and bits that don't fit. She asked because nana called Millibean a "rabid leftie" and didn't get what that meant.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:31
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jBrereton posted:who the gently caress doesn't know who Attlee is lol you learn about the founding of the NHS at school Really? I didn't.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:32
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OwlFancier posted:We didn't. Same.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:33
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jBrereton posted:who the gently caress doesn't know who Attlee is lol you learn about the founding of the NHS at school For specifically named PMs in history we got Chamberlain (weak, bad), Churchill (stronk, good), Eden (drugs, Suez), Lloyd George (liberal, WWI), Balfour (Israel, mustache), Disraeli (Jewish, empire), and Peel (police, ???).
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Mar 20, 2017 00:33
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I learned about the founding of the NHS at school.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:35
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I learned about Attlee from the previous UKMT, seems like he was a pretty good PM, would be nice to resurrect him
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Mar 20, 2017 00:36
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I think the only PMs we mentioned were Chamberlain and Churchill as part of the WW2 module. No political history outside that. Unless you want to count Cromwell.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:39
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learnincurve posted:This would be one for legal advice if she wanted to come back here for treatment, the problem would be if she does not qualify for NHS treatment then she probably won't qualify for private insurance as it's a pre-existing condition. Only thing I can do is give you the link to mind so you can phone them for advice and support http://mind.org.uk . Yeah I know it's tricky, she's received some treatment in the UK in the past but it's hard to know what to do now. I've tried to get her to talk to her family to get help, it seems like they might be able to a little bit more. I'll give mind a call tomorrow anyhow though, will see what comes out of it.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:42
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Pochoclo posted:I learned about Attlee from the previous UKMT, seems like he was a pretty good PM, would be nice to resurrect him Being bracketed by Churchill hasn't helped his memorability but even beyond his concrete, visible achievements (and those cannot possibly overstated) perhaps the most relevant thing about him for today's climate was that he did all of that while also fighting his own colleagues the entire way.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:45
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Pochoclo posted:I learned about Attlee from the previous UKMT, seems like he was a pretty good PM, would be nice to resurrect him If we can't get Robot Lenin to lead the Labour party I guess he'd be an acceptable alternative.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:50
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