|
Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed. |
|||
|---|---|---|---|
| Jeremy Corbyn |
|
95 | 18.63% |
| Dennis Skinner |
|
53 | 10.39% |
| Angus Robertson |
|
20 | 3.92% |
| Tim Farron |
|
9 | 1.76% |
| Paul Ukips |
|
7 | 1.37% |
| Robot Lenin |
|
105 | 20.59% |
| Tony Blair |
|
28 | 5.49% |
| Pissflaps |
|
193 | 37.84% |
| Total: | 510 votes | ||
|
forkboy84 posted:Terribly. Not calling an early election would be a mistake by May on a par with Brown not calling for one soon after he became leader. I hope she makes it. May would win an election right now, but all current indications are that she would win one in 2020 as well, since Corbyn intends to stay. If she calls a snap election now and hammers Corbyn into the ground, he'll get ousted and the Labour party will (theoretically) start to rebuild, at the same time as the country starts getting economic shocks from Brexit. Calling an election now possibly loses the Tories power in 2022. Waiting probably lets them keep the reins until 2025, at least. Unless the shocks from Brexit are starting to be felt and felt hard in 2020. That might upset the applecart for the Tories.
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 22:25 |
|
|
I figured the Tories would wait until the boundary review, but then again that's 18 months away, and also 3/4 of the way into Taking Back Control, so they might want to get an election out of the way.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:12
|
|
I can't get enough of are Dan
|
Undead Hippo posted:If she calls a snap election now and hammers Corbyn into the ground, he'll get ousted Calling an early election now means the boundary changes and reduction to 600 MPs won't be implemented. I expect May to hang on till 2020 for that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:13
|
|
|
forkboy84 posted:Terribly. Not calling an early election would be a mistake by May on a par with Brown not calling for one soon after he became leader. I hope she makes it. Horses and barn doors. That opportunity is long past.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:14
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:24
|
|
|
Cerv posted:Horses and barn doors. That opportunity is long past. If Labour can lose Copeland they can lose just about anywhere, and the Tories are what, about 15 points up in the polls? Plus the inevitable bounce they'll get from people who just want to see the next couple of years through but didn't declare for them. Why not take another fifty seats off Labour in England and Wales and a few off the SNP in Scotland under Ruth Davidson?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:27
|
|
|
Labour would be so hosed. It's staggering reading some of the Facebook comments on the JC4PM page and others like it - people really believe Labour would sweep to victory right now. It's pretty amazing that even the most staunch Corbynite doesn't see that he needs replacing, albeit better for him to stay than be replaced by a wet centrist. I'm increasingly starting to think that we aren't going to be seeing the end of right wing populism any time soon and there's very little we can do about it. Following this line of thinking, it becomes more worth the current misery to push Labour back to the left. I do realise this is a position I have more capacity to take as an able-bodied white man though. The whole 'teach taxes in school thing' also boils my piss. As if that's not something you can easily find out from the internet when the time comes to do it. School should be about teaching actual skills like critical thinking, sorting through information, source analysis, research, etc. Once you've got those sorts of cognitive skills down, things like taxes shouldn't really be a problem. Although I do agree a civics class would be good, teaching about how the government and country work in a general sort of sense. What do people think of a critical thinking class? I'm not sure what it would look like in practice but I've been noticing recently that so many people just don't know how to think about things in a critical, analytical way, and I really think that's a strong part of the reason we're in this fiery hellish mess. I realise other subjects should teach this while they teach other stuff, but it wouldn't appear that they are. I'd guess that, with the example of, say, history, people are generally not making the connection between historical sources and those that are contemporary to them - newspapers, websites etc. An additional class could help to make that link.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:29
|
|
|
A GE now is a vote on how to handle Brexit: hard, soft or an attempt to never call/to reverse article 50. Labour would probably do okay by promising to keep workers rights, EU workers rights to remain and a promise to keep the finance sector in London which are all things they've argued for. Edit: And it would blunt the Scottish independence argument.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:31
|
|
|
If there was a snap election and labour were to return as a rump party with only a few MPs wouldn't that make it easier for pro-Corbyn candidates to be selected in place of the MPs who have just lost their seats? Maybe that is Jeremy's plan all along?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:34
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:If there was a snap election and labour were to return as a rump party with only a few MPs wouldn't that make it easier for pro-Corbyn candidates to be selected in place of the MPs who have just lost their seats?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:39
|
|
|
If you want a vision of the future, imagine an undergrad bleating about Corbyn on the Sunday Politics - forever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:43
|
|
|
Nick Griffin, the former leader of the British Nationalist Party, has announced that he intends to move to Hungary "within six months". The far-right politician, who was ousted from the BNP in 2014, said he decided to emigrate to the eastern European country because it has a government that "doesn't want to commit national suicide" which he believes to be "very refreshing from someone coming from the west". Griffin also praised Hungary for building a border wall to keep out refugees and for providing state help for large Hungarian families. The move comes as something of a shock given the anti-immigration views formed a major part of Griffin's entire political career. Speaking to Hungarian website 444, Griffin said: "There's already a sort of nationalist emigre community building up here. There's French, there's Italians and Swedes, and Brits as well, so it's only a trickle at present. "I have no doubt at all that when the trouble really begins with al-Qaeda and Isis in western Europe, that trickle is going to become a flood." He added: "And I hope that Hungary, the Hungarian government, the Hungarian people, will welcome people who are genuine refugees from western Europe but keep out the liberals who have brought western Europe to this state in the first place." Griffin said he still intends to keep up with political activism while living in Hungary. When asked where he intends to live in Hungary, the extreme right-winger said that while Budapest is a "fantastic city" he is a country boy by nature so will "probably live somewhere out in the sticks, as we would say in England". http://flip.it/vQ6_4c
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:46
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:The whole 'teach taxes in school thing' also boils my piss. As if that's not something you can easily find out from the internet when the time comes to do it. School should be about teaching actual skills like critical thinking, sorting through information, source analysis, research, etc. Once you've got those sorts of cognitive skills down, things like taxes shouldn't really be a problem. Although I do agree a civics class would be good, teaching about how the government and country work in a general sort of sense. Surely in the UK "teach taxes in schools" would be exactly part of a civics class - where taxes come from, what they are for, why you pay them. Most people simply have their taxes calculated and paid by their employer, it's only if you are self employed or have some non-standard arrangement that you need to worry about doing them yourself. And in most of those cases you'd just employ an accountant. I think that idea is more American where apparently everyone is expected to do the reforms themselves.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:48
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:The whole 'teach taxes in school thing' also boils my piss. As if that's not something you can easily find out from the internet when the time comes to do it. School should be about teaching actual skills like critical thinking, sorting through information, source analysis, research, etc. Once you've got those sorts of cognitive skills down, things like taxes shouldn't really be a problem. Although I do agree a civics class would be good, teaching about how the government and country work in a general sort of sense. What do people think of a critical thinking class? I'm not sure what it would look like in practice but I've been noticing recently that so many people just don't know how to think about things in a critical, analytical way, and I really think that's a strong part of the reason we're in this fiery hellish mess. I realise other subjects should teach this while they teach other stuff, but it wouldn't appear that they are. I'd guess that, with the example of, say, history, people are generally not making the connection between historical sources and those that are contemporary to them - newspapers, websites etc. An additional class could help to make that link. Life skills kind of stuff is actually something taught in secondary schools, and both my kids learned the basics like credit cards, budgeting, how mortgages work and some basic tax stuff - one went onto uni 2 years ago, the other is just about to do GCSEs. Critical thinking though, I'd not really be able to guess as I'd have to base it on their personalities. Some subjects do kind of push that angle where you infer from known facts or accounts, but it's something I've always pushed them to do rather than spout answers or advice at them. I'm sure some who are teachers can provide a good answer here though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 11:48
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:I realise other subjects should teach this while they teach other stuff, but it wouldn't appear that they are. I'd guess that, with the example of, say, history, people are generally not making the connection between historical sources and those that are contemporary to them - newspapers, websites etc. An additional class could help to make that link. We also got to look at current foreign tabloids being lovely about Britain and about their own pet national issues, so there were obviously attempts there to make sure that everyone knew about media bias. It's making sure that this can be carried over to the system that you're in without being accused of the same bias you're trying to talk about or getting lost in a swamp of relativism that's the hard part. JFairfax posted:Speaking to Hungarian website 444, Griffin said: "There's already a sort of nationalist emigre community building up here. There's French, there's Italians and Swedes, and Brits as well, so it's only a trickle at present. big scary monsters posted:And in most of those cases you'd just employ an accountant.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:03
|
|
|
We were offered a voluntary AS level course in Critical Thinking at my sixth form. It was poorly attended and the only person I can remember doing it is now an rear end in a top hat libertarian lawyer so results may vary. Also it's worth remembering that any immigrant who passes the citizenship test will know more about the structure of the British parliamentary and legal system that 99.9% of any native born Brit.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:04
|
|
|
Don't Lol me posted:Life skills kind of stuff is actually something taught in secondary schools, and both my kids learned the basics like credit cards, budgeting, how mortgages work and some basic tax stuff - one went onto uni 2 years ago, the other is just about to do GCSEs. That's interesting, I wasn't aware that any of that stuff was being taught. Sorry big scary monsters, I more meant that I hate this idea that we should teach it as a 'practical skills' thing and not as a 'how your country works' thing, if that makes sense? Less about the technical details and more about the principles, I suppose, while still clearing up misconceptions like the whole 'it's better to earn (lower amount) than (higher amount) because the taxes kick in at x amount' thing. I'm struggling to remember my history classes but I don't remember ever analysing modern newspapers, and I highly doubt that's happening now with the Tories at the helm. Whatever the solution, we need a way to hammer critical thinking skills into people at a far earlier age than university level, or even 16-18. It needs to happen for everyone. Not only how to think critically, but also why it's important to.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:08
|
|
|
they teach tax in schools. hmrc produces a comprehensive teachers pack to support lesson plans which it reviews every six months
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:09
|
|
|
namesake posted:Also it's worth remembering that any immigrant who passes the citizenship test will know more about the structure of the British parliamentary and legal system that 99.9% of any native born Brit.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:11
|
|
|
On snap GE talk, John Mcdonald gave a talk last november I was at where he said he expected a snap GE this year, so who knows.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:11
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:That's interesting, I wasn't aware that any of that stuff was being taught. Sorry big scary monsters, I more meant that I hate this idea that we should teach it as a 'practical skills' thing and not as a 'how your country works' thing, if that makes sense? Less about the technical details and more about the principles, I suppose, while still clearing up misconceptions like the whole 'it's better to earn (lower amount) than (higher amount) because the taxes kick in at x amount' thing. I'm struggling to remember my history classes but I don't remember ever analysing modern newspapers, and I highly doubt that's happening now with the Tories at the helm. Whatever the solution, we need a way to hammer critical thinking skills into people at a far earlier age than university level, or even 16-18. It needs to happen for everyone. Not only how to think critically, but also why it's important to.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:12
|
|
|
jBrereton posted:People learn to think critically through their everyday interactions with people and hearing things that do not stack up with their worldview such as it is through childhood into adolescence hope that helps Clearly they don't though. Or aren't, anyway. Have you been keeping up? Media outlets (and politicians) have been spreading easily disprovable, obvious lies for ages, now more than ever, and the general public, who have apparently learned to think critically through their everyday interactions with people, have been eating it up unquestioningly. I don't buy that critical thinking skills are just something that comes with age and general interaction with people and knowledge. It's something that has to be taught, almost like it's a... skill?! E: Thanks for the condescending tone too, it really contributed to the conversation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:19
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:Clearly they don't though. Or aren't, anyway. Have you been keeping up? Media outlets (and politicians) have been spreading easily disprovable, obvious lies for ages, now more than ever, and the general public, who have apparently learned to think critically through their everyday interactions with people, have been eating it up unquestioningly. I don't buy that critical thinking skills are just something that comes with age and general interaction with people and knowledge. It's something that has to be taught, almost like it's a... skill?!
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:20
|
|
|
jBrereton posted:Maybe you've just been eating up the narrative that people seriously believe what they read in the papers, as spread by people who get poo poo talked about them and their ideas in the papers and aren't very good at responding. Or I talk to a broad group of people from a lot of different backgrounds regularly and observe what I see, which is reflected in voting habits and polls?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:21
|
|
|
Personally I think so critically that I don't believe anything at all.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:29
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:Or I talk to a broad group of people from a lot of different backgrounds regularly and observe what I see, which is reflected in voting habits and polls? Google the plural of anecdote and confirmation bias.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:31
|
|
|
namesake posted:A GE now is a vote on how to handle Brexit: hard, soft or an attempt to never call/to reverse article 50. I hardly see how the Scottish independence argument would be blunted if the finance sector in London was kept. If anything it would strengthen the argument as Scotland being ignored in favour of London.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:32
|
|
|
I can't really see May calling a snap election after invoking article 50 because what those 2 years really needs is a bunch of lost time on a general election but considering Davis is months into his job and has apparently done no work at all maybe it wouldn't change anything
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:33
|
|
|
Breath Ray posted:Google the plural of anecdote and confirmation bias. So there isn't a rise in populist thinking fuelled largely by the media right now then?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:34
|
|
|
I had a course in high school called Theory of Knowledge where they taught critical thinking skills like recognising fallacies, researching sources, understanding bias, stuff like that. I still remember the one class where one student had the penny drop about his mother not having vaccinated him. Stuff like that should be widespread.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:37
|
|
|
Article 50 to be triggered on the 29th.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:38
|
|
|
Coohoolin posted:I had a course in high school called Theory of Knowledge where they taught critical thinking skills like recognising fallacies, researching sources, understanding bias, stuff like that. I still remember the one class where one student had the penny drop about his mother not having vaccinated him. Stuff like that should be widespread. This is what I'm talking about. Perhaps if I'd had such a class, I'd have the critical thinking skills to know not to engage with someone as cretinous as Breath Ray when I've got better things to do.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:39
|
|
|
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25273024 jesus wept
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:42
|
|
|
Why are you posting a news article from 2013?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:43
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:That's interesting, I wasn't aware that any of that stuff was being taught. Sorry big scary monsters, I more meant that I hate this idea that we should teach it as a 'practical skills' thing and not as a 'how your country works' thing, if that makes sense? Less about the technical details and more about the principles, I suppose, while still clearing up misconceptions like the whole 'it's better to earn (lower amount) than (higher amount) because the taxes kick in at x amount' thing. I'm struggling to remember my history classes but I don't remember ever analysing modern newspapers, and I highly doubt that's happening now with the Tories at the helm. Whatever the solution, we need a way to hammer critical thinking skills into people at a far earlier age than university level, or even 16-18. It needs to happen for everyone. Not only how to think critically, but also why it's important to. So much of it is dependent on people's parents though. Goon AlanBstard is a teacher at secondary level and my mum does primary school - the levels that people come in at because of their home situation are so utterly different.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:45
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:This is what I'm talking about. Perhaps if I'd had such a class, I'd have the critical thinking skills to know not to engage with someone as cretinous as Breath Ray when I've got better things to do. Here, it was this. http://www.ibo.org/programmes/diploma-programme/curriculum/theory-of-knowledge/what-is-tok/ quote:Theory of knowledge (TOK) plays a special role in the International Baccalaureate® (IB) Diploma Programme (DP), by providing an opportunity for students to reflect on the nature of knowledge, and on how we know what we claim to know.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:46
|
|
|
Coohoolin posted:Here, it was this. Are you claiming to have followed this course?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:47
|
|
|
WMain00 posted:Why are you posting a news article from 2013? As a practical demonstration of what people are talking about on this page re understanding sources
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 12:54
|
|
|
Some small humour from recent events: https://twitter.com/CapitalMoments/status/843791618490753024 (it was, of course, Tim Barrow)
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 13:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 22:25 |
|
|
Jakabite posted:So there isn't a rise in populist thinking fuelled largely by the media right now then? I think it would be difficult to accurately measure the current rate of populist thinking, whatever that is, and even harder to prove that what largely fuels it right now is the media.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 13:06
|
|