|
ToastyPotato posted:The team the outperforms the other team is the better team and should win. How bad at games do you have to be to want a hard coded equalizer that allows inferior teams to force a draw due to an arbitrary lack of measurement? A lot of things about scoring games and sports are arbitrary measurements unless you are talking about sports like racing where it is all about finishing time or shot put where you are measuring the distance you throw something. I wouldn't want a tied football game to be decided based on something like total yards instead of the arbitrary scoring goals already in place. Overwatch is a very new game, some people have different understandings of what meaningful measurements of success are. If this was all obvious Blizzard wouldn't still be dicking around with changing the scoring to get it right. FuriousxGeorge fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Mar 20, 2017 |
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 07:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 05:44 |
|
|
FuriousxGeorge posted:A lot of things about scoring games and sports are arbitrary measurements unless you are talking about sports like racing where it is all about finishing time or shot put where you are measuring the distance you throw something. I wouldn't want a tied football game to be decided based on something like total yards instead of the arbitrary scoring goals already in place. Overwatch is a very new game, some people have different understandings of what meaningful measurements of success are. A lot about how Overwatch works is obviously arbitrary, but to be honest the way they're testing 2CP is simply an extension of how the payload system in the game already works...one team sets the goalpost for the other team. If you want at least the first third of the progress meter to fall back on when it's your turn to defend that's cool, you just have to actually go out and secure it first.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 07:24
|
|
|
Dear penthouse forum i never thought it'd happen to me 
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 08:41
|
|
|
I've personally yet to encounter somebody who genuinely does that in a real pub. Outside of myself when I'm with a six stack because I think it's funny. A lot of Widowmaker/Hanzos fail to understand that getting picks doesn't contribute to a good push, it's the timing of when you get a pick that does. Soloing three people and dying to the last three doesn't make a difference when your team already got wiped. Theta Zero fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Mar 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 09:49
|
|
|
I have to mention it all the time whenever I play with my buds in gold. People genuinely think that finishing off 3 low health enemies at the end of the fight means they're the best.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 10:42
|
|
|
I've seen some people start as Widow in the first minute or so "just for the pick" which, yknow, sure come up with your own strategies and all, but I figure if you want a pick at the beginning of a match I'd rather at least have some forward momentum so why not just pick Hog instead?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 13:29
|
|
|
berenzen posted:Not necessarily. They could have had an exceptional set of games where they were playing far above their true SR, but after several games they dropped because they weren't able to keep up that level of play and they dropped. Or they just had an exceptionally bad series of games like Bottom Liner and dropped a massive amount of SR. But people who are capable of reaching that level should theoretically play better than a genuine silver/etc who can never reach that top rank in the first place?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 14:01
|
|
|
Widow can do it from spawn while Hog has to get closer.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 14:01
|
|
|
NO LISTEN TO ME posted:I've seen some people start as Widow in the first minute or so "just for the pick" which, yknow, sure come up with your own strategies and all, but I figure if you want a pick at the beginning of a match I'd rather at least have some forward momentum so why not just pick Hog instead? If you can shoot, Widow is a far more reliable way of getting a surprise pick. Hog gets picks in a totally different fashion, you have to wade into the action and be vulnerable yourself. It's much slower. In a 6v6, especially vs a Rein, good luck magically conjuring a pick out of thin air as Hog. Widow can work because she can instantly delete somebody at long range in a totally uncontested fashion. Problem is most people who do it cannot get a pick quickly, the other team get wise to it, and then the Widow just stubbornly continues to beat their head against a brick wall.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 14:09
|
|
|
The map it makes most sense on to me is King's Row attack, where you can take a couple of shots then immediately switch to something like S76 and catch up with your team for almost no cost. Good opponents shouldn't fall for that though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 14:12
|
|
|
Jeza posted:If you can shoot, Widow is a far more reliable way of getting a surprise pick. Hog gets picks in a totally different fashion, you have to wade into the action and be vulnerable yourself. It's much slower. In a 6v6, especially vs a Rein, good luck magically conjuring a pick out of thin air as Hog. Widow can work because she can instantly delete somebody at long range in a totally uncontested fashion. Yeah okay, this makes sense. I think I don't usually consider the (literal, not metaphorical) perspective of a super long range character because I never play snipers in games. So instead I just think back to all the hogs that have hooked me from seemingly 9 miles away.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 14:20
|
|
|
Jeza posted:If you can shoot, Widow is a far more reliable way of getting a surprise pick. Hog gets picks in a totally different fashion, you have to wade into the action and be vulnerable yourself. It's much slower. In a 6v6, especially vs a Rein, good luck magically conjuring a pick out of thin air as Hog. Widow can work because she can instantly delete somebody at long range in a totally uncontested fashion. Widowmakers don't touch the point though, Hogs at least do sometimes
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 14:25
|
|
|
I actually really like it when the other team does the "widow for a quick pick" on kings row. As roadhog, its my cue to sit my fat rear end out in the open and take a headshot so ana can build up her charge super fast.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 14:38
|
|
|
FuriousxGeorge posted:A lot of things about scoring games and sports are arbitrary measurements unless you are talking about sports like racing where it is all about finishing time or shot put where you are measuring the distance you throw something. I wouldn't want a tied football game to be decided based on something like total yards instead of the arbitrary scoring goals already in place. Overwatch is a very new game, some people have different understandings of what meaningful measurements of success are. If this was all obvious Blizzard wouldn't still be dicking around with changing the scoring to get it right. Football has rules in place that make it very difficult for a draw to happen. Most sports do. Even soccer does, but draws happen there because not every soccer game has shoot outs as an option, IIRC. I don't think using progress in a game where progress is already measured is all that arbitrary. In most sports you try to score as many points as possible within a set time limit. In golf you try to get you ball in the holes with the fewest swings. These don't apply to CP or Payload, but since both of those have progress bars essentially, it would be pretty dumb to ignore those and say a team that got to 99% was no different than a team that got 1%.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 16:58
|
|
|
ToastyPotato posted:Football has rules in place that make it very difficult for a draw to happen. What football has to avoid ties is overtime, which is something people here want to avoid right? They want the games over quicker? This solution is more like what I pointed out before, just give it to the team with more total yards even if he they couldn't actually score any points with those yards. Hell, the NFL just changed from sudden death overtime and now the overtimes usually last even longer. People often value the perception of fairness and a winner really having to earn it over ending games as quickly as possible. FuriousxGeorge fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Mar 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 17:03
|
|
|
edit: ^^^The new way that capture points work is kind of like a football analogy. Before you could get away with a "bend but don't break" style defense that would allow attackers to make some progress but ultimately fail to score, but now second defense needs to play like they're on the 1 yard line the whole time.ToastyPotato posted:The team the outperforms the other team is the better team and should win. How bad at games do you have to be to want a hard coded equalizer that allows inferior teams to force a draw due to an arbitrary lack of measurement? The new system seems like the perfect solution to many Control Point draw scenarios, outside of both teams successfully attacking, obviously. It is just difficult because the team that attacks second knows what they need to do in order to win. I guess teams will adapt, but the attacking teams goal is to cap the point fully (on Eichenwalde, for example) because anything less than full cap does nothing. Now you could have a team flail at getting through the choke for 3 minutes and then in the last minute make some desperation efforts to at least get something on the board. If the first attack team plays the whole 4 minutes with the intent to get a pick or two, use some ults and get a full cap, they could very well get absolutely nothing on the board which happens all the time. Now the second attack team has the foresight to know that they don't need to play that way, all they have to do is touch the point and win. The second defense team doesn't have the luxury of holding the gate choke and play defense the same way the first team did, they don't have the luxury of going for a long-haul stall of getting a sym teleporter up because the game could be over in 2 seconds. The game now could be very different for the first attack team to the second. Players will adjust to account for this by being very aggressive at some point when they're on attack first. They have to be or they're going to lose to flanking sombras and tracers that win just by touching the point. Good Dog fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Mar 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 17:08
|
|
|
So I play fairly casual, just quick plays mostly and was having a terrible day with awful pubs until I finally got a half decent game. Then at the very end something magical happened and thanks to an unintentionally helpful member of the enemy team I got to live the dream.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 17:33
|
|
|
Saintv77 posted:So I play fairly casual, just quick plays mostly and was having a terrible day with awful pubs until I finally got a half decent game.  But how is it a sextuple kill when the enemy Pharah bumps you from behind 
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 17:38
|
|
|
Jeza posted:Problem is most people who do it cannot get a pick quickly, the other team get wise to it, and then the Widow just stubbornly continues to beat their head against a brick wall. "I don't get it, he was stood right here, what could have hap-"
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 18:05
|
|
|
Bolivar posted:
She was up and left, shot a conc behind him while dropping down, got caught. That's beautiful though. The highest of noons.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 18:14
|
|
|
Good Dog posted:edit: ^^^The new way that capture points work is kind of like a football analogy. Before you could get away with a "bend but don't break" style defense that would allow attackers to make some progress but ultimately fail to score, but now second defense needs to play like they're on the 1 yard line the whole time. I don't see the adjustment people will make as a bad one. Where previously the game allowed for minutes worth of dicking around for the "big push" and breakthrough, now teams will be forced to play properly and actually attack the point from the beginning. For me it is no different than forcing teams to push the payload by measuring their distance. Now you must cap the point because they measure the cap progress. It also means first defense must be more mindful of flankers and back caps, where as before, you could play defense far more aggressively if you were confident at your ability to stop a flank or back cap. Now every opening matters, because, like payload, every inch of progress matters. FuriousxGeorge posted:What football has to avoid ties is overtime, which is something people here want to avoid right? They want the games over quicker? This solution is more like what I pointed out before, just give it to the team with more total yards even if he they couldn't actually score any points with those yards. Hell, the NFL just changed from sudden death overtime and now the overtimes usually last even longer. People often value the perception of fairness and a winner really having to earn it over ending games as quickly as possible. The problem with long games is that, due to the way the old system worked, most draws were usually long games. Hence wanting both shorter games and fewer draws. I think people want fewer of both, or at the very least one or the other. Also keep in mind that the NFL has an incentive for longer games where as Overwatch does not. This new change potentially kills two birds with one stone, offering fewer draws and shorter games on CP.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 18:19
|
|
|
Big Mad Drongo posted:Backcapping is a proud TF2 tradition, and Scout and Spy each shed a single tear of pride when they saw their legacy continued. Same. Nobody ever expects the Junkrat to double mine onto Volskaya A and they're too busy with the gate to know what to do in their confusion. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 18:46
|
|
|
A critical difference in sports is that teams aren't generally locked out of winning. Soccer goes to draws fairly often but until the game ends, either team can still win. In 2cp if the second attackers draw level there's no longer any chance of the defenders winning, and I think that takes a lot of the tension out of the game. The changes make this a lot less likely to happen.Good Dog posted:It is just difficult because the team that attacks second knows what they need to do in order to win. I guess teams will adapt, but the attacking teams goal is to cap the point fully (on Eichenwalde, for example) because anything less than full cap does nothing. Now you could have a team flail at getting through the choke for 3 minutes and then in the last minute make some desperation efforts to at least get something on the board. If the first attack team plays the whole 4 minutes with the intent to get a pick or two, use some ults and get a full cap, they could very well get absolutely nothing on the board which happens all the time. Now the second attack team has the foresight to know that they don't need to play that way, all they have to do is touch the point and win. The second defense team doesn't have the luxury of holding the gate choke and play defense the same way the first team did, they don't have the luxury of going for a long-haul stall of getting a sym teleporter up because the game could be over in 2 seconds.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 19:05
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:I think this is bad logic. Obviously the second defenders are in a bad spot because they did as badly as it was possible to do. But the fact that they know they have to sit on the point is as much an information advantage as the fact that the attacking team knows they only have to touch it. The first set of defenders didn't know whether it would end up being important to stop any progress on the point, so they'd have to decide whether to defend the point or the choke in the dark, and potentially be punished for either decision. Teams play defense differently when they can only give up 20% of a cap before they lose as opposed to 100%. Having to dedicate 1-2 players to standing on the point, which is basically always a disadvantageous spot to be sucks. It doesn't matter as much on Hanamura because generally you have your healers playing on point with the rest of the team at the gate, but on maps like Volskaya or Eichenwalde, having 1-2 players on point while the other 4 try to play 4v6 at the choke means you're probably going to lose everything. I guess it'll just encourage dive comps on attack even more because it'll basically always be better to dive through the choke and go for the whole cap every time, knowing that even if you fail you're still making some progress, even if you don't get 1/3 tick.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 19:18
|
|
|
That's the inherent gamble, isn't it? For both attack and defence - send someone to play the objective or put your full force on the choke.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 19:32
|
|
|
Good Dog posted:Teams play defense differently when they can only give up 20% of a cap before they lose as opposed to 100%. Having to dedicate 1-2 players to standing on the point, which is basically always a disadvantageous spot to be sucks. It doesn't matter as much on Hanamura because generally you have your healers playing on point with the rest of the team at the gate, but on maps like Volskaya or Eichenwalde, having 1-2 players on point while the other 4 try to play 4v6 at the choke means you're probably going to lose everything. As I said the fact that the second set of defenders knows how much they can give up without losing is an advantage that cancels out the attacker's knowledge advantage, not a disadvantage. The first set of defenders might put 6 people on the gate and end up losing to a 20% backcap because they didn't know that 20% would end up mattering.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 19:57
|
|
|
Doesn't it mean that maybe a new meta of ranged backline can evolve? Like what if you get widow up on the health pack room between the gate and the point on Wolskaya A, or the rooftop above Anubis A? I'm not a any more than a scrub, but I feel like this just sort of demands an adaptation, and is maybe more in line with how they want the game to be played (Comp games theoretically take less time, end in fewer draws, and require a wider variation on team based more on Map than on Meta)
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 20:25
|
|
|
I aspire to one day be this roadhog https://i.imgur.com/lyUOZGg.mp4 Also, Am I mis-remembering or did the devs ever say they were going to fix the hook-and-turn where you can hook someone when you're standing next to the edge of the map, turn quickly, and drop them off? I did that a lot this weekend.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 21:13
|
|
|
khy posted:I aspire to one day be this roadhog My favorite part of that is the Zen popping ult then going back in front of the door
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 21:28
|
|
|
Does anyone actually rate the games they get in quick play? I constantly rated games higher when I round out a 4 or 5 man group. Now I feel I get dropped into those games decently often. Maybe I am just imagining it though or maybe the rating system does work.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
Tiger Crazy posted:Does anyone actually rate the games they get in quick play? I constantly rated games higher when I round out a 4 or 5 man group. Now I feel I get dropped into those games decently often. Maybe I am just imagining it though or maybe the rating system does work. I always assumed that if that feature did anything, all it did was send some stats to the matchmaker that might tune it slightly over time. but I lean more towards the idea that it doesn't do anything except give people an outlet when they feel like a match was unbalanced
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 22:07
|
|
|
I just rate every 2CP map with a minus and every KOTH map with a plus.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 22:21
|
|
|
I'd rather play Volskaya or Anubis over Illios all day 
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 22:23
|
|
|
Ilios is good maps, except for Ruins which has that dumb sunken point and overly generous health pack placement but isn't anywhere near as offensive as 2CP or even the lower-tier Payload maps.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 22:26
|
|
|
Ruins is terrible for that reason and Well is almost as bad with its choke points. Lighthouse is pretty good though
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 22:32
|
|
|
as as sombra the new anti-draw mechanic is fantastic because people will finally like me when i run onto the point while everyone else is dicking about at the choke
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2017 23:35
|
|
|
I don't like Lighthouse because it's pretty hard to get a Deadeye off there. Otherwise Ilios is good. Nepal's just a mess though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2017 11:47
|
|
|
What do people think of Oasis? I generally like the map layouts and use of high ground but the divided points lead to some insanely long contests. I once saw a Lucio (on my team) contest for like 2 minutes by riding around inside the marquee thing. I don't think I've seen any pro games on it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2017 11:53
|
|
|
Tiger Crazy posted:Does anyone actually rate the games they get in quick play? I constantly rated games higher when I round out a 4 or 5 man group. Now I feel I get dropped into those games decently often. Maybe I am just imagining it though or maybe the rating system does work. I rate up if I won or get potg, rate down if I lost. So far don't think it made a difference.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2017 12:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 05:44 |
|
|
So I've crossed over to the dark side and have been playing a lot of Hanzo. I've been pretty...iffy with him except I get to panicky in close quarters. So I decided to find out if flicking worked as well with him as it does my Mccree. https://gfycat.com/OblongHealthyCommabutterfly If anything else it's helped me consistently land body shots on Tracers that surprise me so I can force the recall and see if they'll come back at me with scatter ready to go. Gonna try and climb in comp this season and I bet I'll have caring and loving teammates who will be overjoyed when they see me select him. Sour Diesel fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Mar 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2017 16:35
|
|
