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Spunky Psycho Ho
Jan 26, 2007

by zen death robot

Panzeh posted:

However, their EC votes in upstate New York are currently being 'bulldozed' by the 'mob'. Why is that just? It's the same for rural california, urban Texas, urban Georgia.

Please simplify your argument I don't get what you're saying. That not everyone gets their way during a vote?

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Jukebox Hero
Dec 27, 2007
stars in his eyes

new phone who dis posted:

The rural minority from the urban majority. The rust belt minority from the coastal majority. There are more minorities in politics than the ones defined by the myopic views of identity politics.

Somebody please protect the curbstomp set from them learned city folk and their godless math and science, if it's not screamed at me by a big white man with a beard I just don't undystands it

new phone who dis
May 24, 2007

by VideoGames
Morbid Hound

Jukebox Hero posted:

Somebody please protect the curbstomp set from them learned city folk and their godless math and science, if it's not screamed at me by a big white man with a beard I just don't undystands it

Your classism is boring and self-destructive.

rezatahs
Jun 9, 2001

by Smythe
the classism on display by "enlightened" liberals is always good for a lol

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"

new phone who dis posted:

The EC ensures a minimum amount of influence and power a state can exert on the Executive election regardless of population and a maximum limit as well. In a system where so much is delegated to state governments who face challenges unique to them, it's a good thing to not let a state get entirely ignored in favor of more populous areas or to let one get so populous and powerful that it dictates the policies of entire regions it has nothing to do with. It also allows states experiencing problems others would rather not address (hello, rust belt) to influence the election more when their populations get riled and start defecting. This is a good thing since politicians have to pay attention to those areas instead of just shoring up more support in already friendly areas to keep them marginalized. You want an electoral process where the Executive branch has to appeal to as wide a group as possible.

True, but it does a bad job of this- West Virginia, Nebraska, the Dakotas, and Alaska all have no real effect on the presidential election despite their disproportionate EC votes. The EC as currently constituted gives very particular closely contested states with enough population to matter a very high level of significance. It does not really fix the problem that the flyover states still get flown over- their only real influence is that they all still send two senators.

It's not particularly well designed for what you want it to do. I think a proportional EC system, would, for example, cause Donald Trump to campaign in California in the hope of garnering some support there. Now, there wouldn't be solid states where opposing campaigns would be worthless. Every place in the US would be worth campaigning in, because the EC still disproportionately helps smaller-pop states.

Spunky Psycho Ho
Jan 26, 2007

by zen death robot

Jukebox Hero posted:

Somebody please protect the curbstomp set from them learned city folk and their godless math and science, if it's not screamed at me by a big white man with a beard I just don't undystands it

A lot of prejudice here, once again proving my claim that liberals just hate rural people

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"

Spunky Psycho Ho posted:

Please simplify your argument I don't get what you're saying. That not everyone gets their way during a vote?

I'm saying that the current electoral college already disenfranchises a bunch of rural voters.

I've made this statement repeatedly. I don't know how I could boil my argument down to be simpler. The EC is not well designed in the role of protecting minority interests as a whole from a majority in its elections.

Why should a candidate get every single elector from a 51-49 win in a state? Whose interests are being protected by this?

Spunky Psycho Ho
Jan 26, 2007

by zen death robot

Panzeh posted:

I'm saying that the current electoral college already disenfranchises a bunch of rural voters.

I've made this statement repeatedly. I don't know how I could boil my argument down to be simpler. The EC is not well designed in the role of protecting minority interests as a whole from a majority in its elections.

So the electoral college is a good idea but needs tweaks? Not 1 person = 1 vote

Mordor She Wrote
Nov 17, 2014

Spunky Psycho Ho posted:

A lot of prejudice here, once again proving my claim that liberals just hate rural people

Maybe if they stopped being dumb we wouldn't?

Jukebox Hero
Dec 27, 2007
stars in his eyes
gently caress rednecks who are too stupid to move to a city where there's actual people. "Oh the nature is so nice and keeps all the dirty minorities so far away."

rezatahs
Jun 9, 2001

by Smythe
you have a lot of hate in your heart and maybe that would melt away if you could connect with nature namaste

new phone who dis
May 24, 2007

by VideoGames
Morbid Hound

Panzeh posted:

True, but it does a bad job of this- West Virginia, Nebraska, the Dakotas, and Alaska all have no real effect on the presidential election despite their disproportionate EC votes. The EC as currently constituted gives very particular closely contested states with enough population to matter a very high level of significance. It does not really fix the problem that the flyover states still get flown over- their only real influence is that they all still send two senators.

It's not particularly well designed for what you want it to do. I think a proportional EC system, would, for example, cause Donald Trump to campaign in California in the hope of garnering some support there. Now, there wouldn't be solid states where opposing campaigns would be worthless. Every place in the US would be worth campaigning in, because the EC still disproportionately helps smaller-pop states.

As long as the country is geographically carved into states and managed at that level the EC makes way more sense than the proportional system you're proposing, which, let's be honest, is just a golden ticket for Dems to not even have to try any more. Smaller-pop states having more representation is fine, just like creating laws for other minorities to ensure proper representation is fine.

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"

Spunky Psycho Ho posted:

So the electoral college is a good idea but needs tweaks? Not 1 person = 1 vote

I wouldn't mind a tweaked electoral college. If the EC gave out its electors based on the proportion of voters in each state, the elections would be quite a bit less skewed.

It would mean, if you're in a solid blue state, your vote would still matter, in a solid red state, your vote would still matter. Hell, Gary Johnson and Jill Stein might even get a few electors.

new phone who dis
May 24, 2007

by VideoGames
Morbid Hound

Jukebox Hero posted:

gently caress rednecks who are too stupid to move to a city where there's actual people. "Oh the nature is so nice and keeps all the dirty minorities so far away."

If only those blacks would bootstrap themselves out of being poor oops I mean rednecks.

USSAr
Sep 16, 2007

Your a Commie

rezatahs posted:

you have a lot of hate in your heart and maybe that would melt away if you could connect with nature namaste

but nature is dirty, i want to be surrounded by the smell of human piss 24/7

Mordor She Wrote
Nov 17, 2014
"I need to live in an economically and socially isolated area where the career prospects have all but vaporized and the only viable options left are meth dealer and gas station employee, because the people here are just so nice (white)"

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"

new phone who dis posted:

As long as the country is geographically carved into states and managed at that level the EC makes way more sense than the proportional system you're proposing, which, let's be honest, is just a golden ticket for Dems to not even have to try any more. Smaller-pop states having more representation is fine, just like creating laws for other minorities to ensure proper representation is fine.

How would an EC that divvied up the electors make dems not try any more? They would stand to gain more by campaigning in deep red states. Why are dems expected to try but reps not? Why do republican politicians get a free pass here?

new phone who dis posted:

Smaller-pop states having more representation is fine, just like creating laws for other minorities to ensure proper representation is fine.

This is an interesting thing to say. Would you say black people should get extra voting power?

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Spunky Psycho Ho posted:

Lol, 1 person 1 vote, okay the whites all vote to ship the blacks to Africa now what

I don't think that's how voting works but alright even if we did have popular direct vote on legislation it'd still be unconstitutional.

I dunno what the answer is but imo a system that encourages dominance between two parties is borked somewhere.

Tallgeese
May 11, 2008

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR


Panzeh posted:

Why should a candidate get every single elector from a 51-49 win in a state? Whose interests are being protected by this?

The problem with your argument is that it smells disingenuous, and thus it is destined to lose because nobody trusts your motives.

New Phone nails it. Why is this suddenly only a huge consideration when basically every single state-level institution uses the same 51-49 system, and why does it only seem to matter when it works against urban people?

Spunky Psycho Ho
Jan 26, 2007

by zen death robot

Mordor She Wrote posted:

"I need to live in an economically and socially isolated area where the career prospects have all but vaporized and the only viable options left are meth dealer and gas station employee, because the people here are just so nice (white)"

Most of the people in the city try to get the gently caress out due to it being a disgusting, angry place

SickZip
Jul 29, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

Mordor She Wrote posted:

Well now they'll die of poverty and addiction and so will their kids and they won't even have a chance for a decent education, so I guess the Republicans have their voting base set for the next century.

That was always going to happen. The spite vote that elected Trump is the vote that you feel their pain.

Trumps 2020 slogan should be " I am the Scourge of God. If you had not committed such sins, I would not have been sent upon you"

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"

Tallgeese posted:

The problem with your argument is that it smells disingenuous, and thus it is destined to lose because nobody trusts your motives.

New Phone nails it. Why is this suddenly only a huge consideration when basically every single state-level institution uses the same 51-49 system, and why does it only seem to matter when it works against urban people?

I've repeatedly said that the dems lost the election by the rules that are in place fair and square. I do not like Hillary Clinton.

I mean, if i'm gonna get poo poo on in this thread for having ideas it doesn't really bode well for the notion of having ideas in this country as the alternative to trumpocracy.

new phone who dis
May 24, 2007

by VideoGames
Morbid Hound

Panzeh posted:

How would an EC that divvied up the electors make dems not try any more? They would stand to gain more by campaigning in deep red states. Why are dems expected to try but reps not? Why do republican politicians get a free pass here?


This is an interesting thing to say. Would you say black people should get extra voting power?

The US is absolutely in the business of trying to address the disenfranchisement of minorities on every level. The EC is just basically affirmative action for small states.

social vegan
Nov 7, 2014



Moridin920 posted:

I don't think that's how voting works but alright even if we did have popular direct vote on legislation it'd still be unconstitutional.


ya that's y u live ina republic

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Tallgeese posted:

why does it only seem to matter when it works against urban people?

Because they see the juxtaposition between winning the popular vote but still losing anyway and they get mad about it.


quote:

Why is this suddenly only a huge consideration when basically every single state-level institution uses the same 51-49 system

This however tbf is a complaint as old as the first past the post system it criticizes.


e: For the presidential election I don't think the EC is that big of a deal considering the EC has only tilted in favor of the party that lost the popular vote like what 3 times in our nation's history?

The Senate should be proportional though imo.

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Mar 21, 2017

Jukebox Hero
Dec 27, 2007
stars in his eyes
There's like three loving people in this thread not tripping over themselves to explain how "*ACTUALLY* you're just a stupid liberal" and half the time forgetting to make a point so I'm just doing as the Romans do

USSAr
Sep 16, 2007

Your a Commie

Mordor She Wrote posted:

"I need to live in an economically and socially isolated area where the career prospects have all but vaporized and the only viable options left are meth dealer and gas station employee, because the people here are just so nice (white)"

please don't talk bad about ghettos

Mordor She Wrote
Nov 17, 2014

Jukebox Hero posted:

There's like three loving people in this thread not tripping over themselves to explain how *ACTUALLY* you're just a stupid liberal

If this election taught me anything, the only way to win, is to ruthlessly berate your political opponents and threaten them with revolt if you don't win. It's how Trump won.

rezatahs
Jun 9, 2001

by Smythe
notice how our two confirmed urban dwellers are very angry and hateful? this is what cities do to you :sad:

SickZip
Jul 29, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

Panzeh posted:


This is an interesting thing to say. Would you say black people should get extra voting power?

We already practice that to a certain extent. certain congressional districts were created during the Civil Rights era so there would be black majority disticts and so black reps in a not completely proportional manner

social vegan
Nov 7, 2014



what if u didn't assume everything u heard wa s an attack on whatever demographic u wrote in ur tinder profile to keep the scary other 1s away

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

SickZip posted:

We already practice that to a certain extent. certain congressional districts were created during the Civil Rights era so there would be black majority disticts and so black reps in a not completely proportional manner

lol yeah

then they gerrymandered the gently caress out of the place so in a area with 10 congressional districts and a 75%+ black population there are still somehow 8 republican representatives

Mordor She Wrote
Nov 17, 2014

rezatahs posted:

notice how our two confirmed urban dwellers are very angry and hateful? this is what cities do to you :sad:

I mean, I could pull a rural Wisconsin and just get high on heroin, drink and beat my significant other to vent my frustrations.

USSAr
Sep 16, 2007

Your a Commie

rezatahs posted:

notice how our two confirmed urban dwellers are very angry and hateful? this is what cities do to you :sad:

case in point look at their driving skills

city drivers commit hate crimes daily

Toadvine
Mar 16, 2009
Please disregard my advice w/r/t history.

Mordor She Wrote posted:

"I need to live in an economically and socially isolated area where the career prospects have all but vaporized and the only viable options left are meth dealer and gas station employee, because the people here are just so nice (white)"

Your classicism is misguided. Do you really think poor folks choose to be poor?

Tallgeese
May 11, 2008

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR


Panzeh posted:

I've repeatedly said that the dems lost the election by the rules that are in place fair and square. I do not like Hillary Clinton.

I mean, if i'm gonna get poo poo on in this thread for having ideas it doesn't really bode well for the notion of having ideas in this country as the alternative to trumpocracy.

Again, the issue is in how you present the argument.

It's not the idea itself. The problem is who is making it, and the perception of why they are making it.

In short, I question if anyone believes you when you seem to be expressing concern about the voters of upstate NY. Not even people in Manhattan care about their votes.

Moridin920 posted:

Because they see the juxtaposition between winning the popular vote but still losing anyway and they get mad about it.

You know for a fact that if it happened to Trump and not Clinton the people currently complaining would not be. That's what I am driving at, it reads as self-serving.

World War Mammories
Aug 25, 2006


Spunky Psycho Ho posted:

Most of the people in the city try to get the gently caress out due to it being a disgusting, angry place

weren't you the guy who claimed that NYC bathrooms are full of naked guys masturbating and poo poo? as someone who grew up there I have never seen anything weirder in a (public) bathroom than puking and I feel like I missed out.

in other news, hey guys, turns out that trump tower was wiretapped! in order to keep tabs on a massive russian mafia laundering/gambling ring being run out of the building, lol

new phone who dis
May 24, 2007

by VideoGames
Morbid Hound

Mordor She Wrote posted:

I mean, I could pull a rural Wisconsin and just get high on heroin, drink and beat my significant other to vent my frustrations.

The poor are always going to be unlikable. The trick is getting over yourself and helping them anyway.

USSAr
Sep 16, 2007

Your a Commie
cities are so progressive that the minorities are purposefully relegated to the poorer areas of the city

makes you think huh?

also, my lord, do that hate homeless people (who often have mental disabilities)

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rezatahs
Jun 9, 2001

by Smythe

Mordor She Wrote posted:

I mean, I could pull a rural Wisconsin and just get high on heroin, drink and beat my significant other to vent my frustrations.

how about just trying to be a good person? :shrug:

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