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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Which is the silly conspiracy-fantasy of racist white liberals wanting to snatch black bodies. For something hailed as such a masterstroke, it's actually so preposterous that reading it as a paranoid fantasy is more constructive. What I'm not entirely getting is why reading the conspiracy as a delusion adds to this in any way. People actually thinking about the movie aren't imagining conspiracies of body snatching white liberals in real life. It's read as a metaphor. Even the oppositional readings of the movie tend to work regardless. It needs to be elaborated a lot better.
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Mar 22, 2017 18:23
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I mean white liberals love Do The Right Thing too but I don't think it reflects poorly on that movie The point is not whether it reflects well on that movie.
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Mar 22, 2017 18:26
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The point is not whether it reflects well on that movie. What is it, then? So far that's how it reads.
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Mar 22, 2017 18:26
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Which is the silly conspiracy-fantasy of racist white liberals wanting to snatch black bodies. For something hailed as such a masterstroke, it's actually so preposterous that reading it as a paranoid fantasy is more constructive. Slavery, medical experimentation, and mass incarceration are also preposterous. The crux of the film is Rod in the police station explaining to black cops what is happening and them mocking him in return. If we pretend that we only see Chris's point of view and completely ignore Rod and Stephen Root's character then maybe this critique makes sense. Even then, that's ignoring the fact that Rose turns on Chris once he tries to resist, a play that white liberals currently enact over and over again. Yes, she was in on it all along. So are white liberals. That's the loving point. It's disappointing to see other leftists arguing that the movie's POV is bad because white liberals are obtuse, as if a) a single horror film should be expected to cut through 60+ years of modern "polite" racism (or 500 years of colonialism/racism) and b) the intended audience is solely white liberals.
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Mar 22, 2017 18:32
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:What is it, then? So far that's how it reads. Describing its particular resonance is part of discussion. This has been puzzled over (as you know) by Spike Lee himself as to why self described liberals have a particular reaction to Do The Right Thing.
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Mar 22, 2017 18:42
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I can't remember who said it (probably Lee himself) but I like the quote that's like "why are white audiences always more upset about the loss of property than the loss of life?"
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Mar 22, 2017 18:59
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Armitage is the name of a character in Neuromancer who is actually a new personality overwritten onto a mentally broken man. When Colonel Corto regains control of his mind he immediately revolts from his captors and attempts a suicide mission that results in a quick death.
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Mar 22, 2017 19:06
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Analytic Engine posted:Armitage is the name of a character in Neuromancer who is actually a new personality overwritten onto a mentally broken man. When Colonel Corto regains control of his mind he immediately revolts from his captors and attempts a suicide mission that results in a quick death. cool, whats the relevance besides plot similarities? e: i mean like, seems like its a clear reference by your description, whats the point of the reference?
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Mar 22, 2017 19:13
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It seems like a reference supporting the literal reading of the film, but really it's just an interesting thing that I haven't seen pointed out anywhere.
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Mar 22, 2017 19:19
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Magic Hate Ball posted:I can't remember who said it (probably Lee himself) but I like the quote that's like "why are white audiences always more upset about the loss of property than the loss of life?" That was Lee, yeah.
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Mar 22, 2017 19:20
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and it of course holds up still every time there's a protest against police violence and liberals tut-tut the protestors for being too violent.
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Mar 22, 2017 19:21
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I think my perception of the film was largely colored by having a fair bit of knowledge of what happens before seeing it. But, maybe the most interesting thing to me is what the film shows as the impact of racism on the white family. They've managed to raise two kids that are complete sociopaths and while Chris treating down the house and institutions is therapeutic, it's also somewhat unnecessary add they are falling apart of their own accord. The son is in med school and apprenticing and otherwise being groomed to take over for the retirement age dad in the family business, yet it's obvious that he never will be successful. He is far more interested in having the procedure done on himself do that he may fulfill his power fantasies. The is the more capable of the two, but she's forced into a one - dimensional role that hasa life span that's only going to last about as long as the parents can remain active. Then she's out of the game. I think in general conversations about how poisonous and corrosive racism is to the racists themselves, is probably one of the better ways to tackle racism.
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Mar 22, 2017 19:44
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I mean, the lovely thing is white liberals have this like supernatural ability to distance themselves from any sort of critique about them, and thus absorb it in like this weird way where they can enjoy the critique while also feeling it doesn't pertain to them as an individual. It doesn't matter in what way the critique is delivered, because they're still not really listening. It's an odd thing, and I'm saying this as someone who is what's conventionally called a white liberal, and I'm painfully aware of how by even pointing this out its another tactic of distancing myself from whatever is being said, by this movie, or even Do The Right Thing, and pinning it on other white liberals. There's really nothing that should or even can be said, it's just whether you want to make the choice of listening and taking responsibility for areas in your life that are protected by giant blinders.
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Mar 22, 2017 19:47
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ThePlague-Daemon posted:People actually thinking about the movie aren't imagining conspiracies of body snatching white liberals in real life. It's read as a metaphor. That's the problem: multiple people ITT have insisted that the movie is an allegory, so it shouldn't be taken too seriously. Like we don't need to actually pay attention to the specifics of the narrative because we 'already knew', in advance, that white liberals are bad. So watching the film becomes an exercise in self-congratulation: "thank god that I'm not like them." Peele possibly didn't realize that Rian Johnson dropped an extreme burn on this film. Here's a concrete example: why does the 'metaphorically liberal' family actively encourage their alt-right son to lynch random black men? You can dismiss it as some strained metaphor (the liberals... don't do enough...? about nazism...?) or you can conclude that the opening scene takes place in a different space, is specifically the kid's fantasy. I passed the Rian Johnson test. The film does not say white liberals are bad; it specifically says that there is no such thing as a white liberal. Therefore liberalism, the film's liberal protagonist, and young liberals in the audience, are subject to absolutely no criticism. It's just imploring people to act less 'white'. So, ironically, it's a movie almost custom-made for Nkechi Diallo (formerly Rachel Dolezal). When you say "it's a metaphor", the first thing you should ask is "whose metaphor?" And the answer there is that it's Chris'. The Chris character has an ideology. I am critiquing it.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:29
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What did Rian Johnson say about the film.
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Mar 22, 2017 23:37
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Hollismason posted:What did Rian Johnson say about the film. That if the Armitage family saw Get Out, they would be its vocal fans. Here's the issue: If Get Out were actually about the failure of liberal multiculturalism, the Armitage family would be forcibly transplanting black brains into white bodies - eliminating (the concept of) race while retaining the beautiful black culture. This doesn't happen in the film because the film is not criticizing liberals. It is criticizing 'fake' liberals, aka conservatives.
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Mar 22, 2017 23:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That if the Armitage family saw Get Out, they would be its vocal fans. It's not saying that they are conservatives, it's saying that they fundamentally cannot understand the black experience because they have entirely different lives even if they do not perceive themselves to be racist.
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Mar 22, 2017 23:57
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ok i've gone back to being entertained by the gimmick again, the rian johnson stuff is too funny
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Mar 23, 2017 00:16
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Escobarbarian posted:I usually like SMG's goofy analyses but this one is especially awful Escobarbarian posted:SMG takes Death of the Author to a whole new level. He basically decapitated the Author. Escobarbarian posted:I don't read that many threads in this forum but this is the first one where I finally get the CD reputation. I usually find SMG's shtick funny and love the Transformers analysis threads, for what it's worth, but this poo poo is just insufferable. Escobarbarian posted:it's just weird because this movie is very obviously about a specific thing and SMG etc's reading involves taking so many scenes drastically out of context in various ways based on the vaguest poo poo Escobarbarian posted:ok i've gone back to being entertained by the gimmick again, the rian johnson stuff is too funny please post about the movie!!!!!!
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Mar 23, 2017 00:23
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Unoriginal Name posted:It's not saying that they are conservatives, it's saying that they fundamentally cannot understand the black experience because they have entirely different lives even if they do not perceive themselves to be racist. Same difference. The ideal liberal identity looks like Rose and thinks like Rod, which is why Chris is stuck in a love triangle between them. And thanks to the brain-transplant conceit, we can literally make this happen. It's the obvious ending to the film's conflict.
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Mar 23, 2017 00:23
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Hat Thoughts posted:please post about the movie!!!!!! I like it a lot. Some of the Rod bits are a bit too overtly comedic but largely it's a solid horror/comedy mix while also being incredibly well-made and making an entertaining horror narrative out of a unique perspective for the genre. Very interesting/eye-opening to see the idea of affluent and purportedly non-discriminatory white liberals wanting to co-opt black culture because it's "exotic" or "cool" represented in this way (I totally fall into that category and the movie made me question myself and the way I go about certain things a lil bit). Has a perfect cast and Peele uses the timing and pacing he learned from sketches and blends it with an excellent sense of dread I wouldn't have thought a first-time director would be capable of. Plus it was just an incredibly exciting, active cinema experience in a way I've never seen (two standing ovations during the climax post-crash). Also it's not about any of the stuff SMG and BOTL and the other trolls say it is lol
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Mar 23, 2017 01:01
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Escobarbarian posted:white liberals wanting to co-opt black culture Can you clarify what you mean by co-opting black culture? I saw this opening night, so I might not be recalling well, but my recollection is that the black bodies/white brains people acted stereotypically white: Logan King walked around in old-white-guy apparel, didn't know how to fist pound, etc. What's the cultural co-opting?
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Mar 23, 2017 01:18
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Escobarbarian posted:I like it a lot. Some of the Rod bits are a bit too overtly comedic but largely it's a solid horror/comedy mix while also being incredibly well-made and making an entertaining horror narrative out of a unique perspective for the genre. Very interesting/eye-opening to see the idea of affluent and purportedly non-discriminatory white liberals wanting to co-opt black culture because it's "exotic" or "cool" represented in this way (I totally fall into that category and the movie made me question myself and the way I go about certain things a lil bit). Escobarbarian posted:Has a perfect cast and Peele uses the timing and pacing he learned from sketches and blends it with an excellent sense of dread I wouldn't have thought a first-time director would be capable of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xyhVO-SWfM
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Mar 23, 2017 02:32
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Sir Kodiak posted:Can you clarify what you mean by co-opting black culture? I saw this opening night, so I might not be recalling well, but my recollection is that the black bodies/white brains people acted stereotypically white: Logan King walked around in old-white-guy apparel, didn't know how to fist pound, etc. What's the cultural co-opting? They can't actually do it, that's the joke. "Black is very in right now." -dresses in a straw boater, does a little dance-
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Mar 23, 2017 02:34
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Unoriginal Name posted:They can't actually do it, that's the joke. "Black is very in right now." -dresses in a straw boater, does a little dance- I just don't see where they're even trying.
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Mar 23, 2017 02:40
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Escobarbarian posted:white liberals wanting to co-opt black culture because it's "exotic" or "cool" represented in this way As Kodak is pointing out, you've missed a very crucial plot point here. There are only two white characters, in the entire film, that care about black culture: Armitage and Root. Armitage is deliberately marketing his service to clueless republicans, hoping that they will become 'more cultured' as a result. The republicans themselves only care about having physical strength and monster cocks. That geriatric isn't trying to jumpstart a rap career. The people at the party are coopting black bodies as cool and exotic. They don't give a poo poo about culture, and Armitage is using this fetishism against them, to inflict black identity as a punishment - a lesson. That's why Grandma and Grandpa are so badly mistreated, strangers in their own home, obviously unloved. They're republicans. And that's ultimately why Armitage hasn't used the procedure on himself: he doesn't believe he needs it. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 04:03
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Escobarbarian posted:Also it's not about any of the stuff SMG and BOTL and the other trolls say it is lol It's not about the paranoid conspiracy-fantasy of rich whites being body snatchers? Because that seems unlikely. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 06:33
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Sir Kodiak posted:Can you clarify what you mean by co-opting black culture? I saw this opening night, so I might not be recalling well, but my recollection is that the black bodies/white brains people acted stereotypically white: Logan King walked around in old-white-guy apparel, didn't know how to fist pound, etc. What's the cultural co-opting? That superficial mimicking is exactly what's meant by co-option. A culture is a collection of artifacts. A culture has a language and a history and a deeper meaning. So Logan King looked black, and was superficially black, but lacked the other essential elements of being black. He couldn't speak the same language as Chris. He didn't dress Like Chris. He didn't have the history of someone from Brooklyn. He was just an old white man in blackface.
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Mar 23, 2017 07:01
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Simplex posted:That superficial mimicking is exactly what's meant by co-option. A culture is a collection of artifacts. A culture has a language and a history and a deeper meaning. So Logan King looked black, and was superficially black, but lacked the other essential elements of being black. He couldn't speak the same language as Chris. He didn't dress Like Chris. He didn't have the history of someone from Brooklyn. He was just an old white man in blackface. I'm not sure how to connect your statement that culture has a language, history, and deeper meaning, with the idea that Logan is mimicking black culture, given that he doesn't attempt to mimic the language, history, or deeper meaning. You mention that culture is a collection of artifacts: what of these artifacts is being used? Escobarbarian, is this what you meant by "white liberals wanting to co-opt black culture"?
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Mar 23, 2017 07:30
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
I got the impression grandma and grandpa were loved and actually were part of the family, but they choose to present the way they do for the benefit of their "guests".
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Mar 23, 2017 07:49
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Sir Kodiak posted:I'm not sure how to connect your statement that culture has a language, history, and deeper meaning, with the idea that Logan is mimicking black culture, given that he doesn't attempt to mimic the language, history, or deeper meaning. You mention that culture is a collection of artifacts: what of these artifacts is being used? A culture is a collection of things, such as language, history, values, apparrel, etc. When we talk about co-opting a culture, it's this process of picking and choosing specific elements of a culture to emulate (or mimic), but ignoring all the other elements that make up the whole. So, the only artifact of being black that Logan is using is the black skin, everything else about him is old white man. The white people want the positives of being black: physical prowess, coolness, virility. However, in their secluded enclave they don't ever have to deal with the negatives, such as being randomly harassed by a state trooper, or being afraid that you'll get shot because you are walking in an unfamiliar suburban neighborhood at night. How this ties into the idea of liberal racism is basically that it reinforces an implicit power disparity between the two parties. For lack of a better term conservative racism is "gently caress black people." On the other hand liberal racism is the veneer of "I love black people," with an undercurrent of "black people should act more like white people." Both perspectives are implicitly white supremacist, it's just that liberal racism allows for the idea that there are positive aspects to black people. Of course white people will be the ultimate arbiters of which aspects are worthy to co-opt into white culture.
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Mar 23, 2017 08:53
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Steve2911 posted:I got the impression grandma and grandpa were loved and actually were part of the family I gotta be like Sir Kodiac here: what on Earth gave you that impression? The part where Grandpa never interacts with anyone, or even enters the house? Or the part where Grandma is mentally ill and kept in a room adorned with scrawled drawings, except when she's made to do chores? The part where Grandpa instantly, defensively says 'I brought this on myself', like "I'm here of my own free will"? Or the part where they're both clearly miserable? More abstractly: is it the part where Grandpa kills his granddaughter and then shoots himself in the head? The part where Grandma starts crying? The part where they are indistinguishable from black slaves? You have to be careful not to make the Escobarbarian mistake of lumping all the white characters and black characters together into uniform masses. Rose is the only character, in the film, who displays the slightest affection for her grandparents. The grandparents don't even love eachother anymore. The Armitage character, by contrast, openly states that he celebrates black identity as a tool to punish idiot racists. That's the point of the Jesse Owens speech. The other line is when he says the best/only way to make someone understand a culture is to immerse them into it. This vital aspect of Armitage's characterization barely registers, though, because it simply isn't illustrated very well (or at all). It's pure expository dialogue. Simplex posted:A culture is a collection of things, such as language, history, values, apparrel, etc. [...] the only artifact of being black that Logan is using is the black skin You're mixing up race with culture. Maybe you mean ethnicity? If these bad guys only care about black skin, then they do not care about black culture at all. The bad guys are not incapable of understanding black culture. They are utterly indifferent to it. They think the cool blacks are those who 'act white': 'the good ones', e.g. Tiger Woods. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 12:03
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Simplex posted:essential elements of being black. woof. yikes.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:47
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Simplex posted:A culture is a collection of things, such as language, history, values, apparrel, etc. When we talk about co-opting a culture, it's this process of picking and choosing specific elements of a culture to emulate (or mimic), but ignoring all the other elements that make up the whole. So, the only artifact of being black that Logan is using is the black skin, everything else about him is old white man. I can go along with culture being a collection of things, I suppose, but I wouldn't have thought of skin color as one of them. Note, you didn't include it in your list, and I feel like it would look weird there: "A culture is a collection of things, such as language, history, values, apparel, skin color, cranial dimensions, dick size..." A culture might include standards about skin color – the definition of whiteness is part of white culture, the paper bag test was part of black culture – but the skin color itself seems distinct. I definitely wouldn't have thought that just the skin color was such an essential element of it that you'd need nothing else to be co-opting it. It seems to do the film a disservice that you're eliminating the possibility of a film communicating a theft of black bodies but not black culture. You're making that degree of nuance impossible to convey. It also seems to do black culture a disservice to say that if you've got the skin color, you've got enough to clearly be taking the culture rather than just a black body. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 17:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I gotta be like Sir Kodiac here: what on Earth gave you that impression? Grandma and grandpa weren't actually presented as themselves for the majority of the movie though. They were put in a certain role for Chris' benefit. And the moments of both of them acting differently (including the shootings) were their original selves breaking through. It clearly wasn't actually Rose's grandfather (or his consciousness) that killed her. When neither of them are having lapsed moments (pouring the drink, murder-suicide etc) they're either acting like creepy elderly white cultists or actively helping the rest of the family with their mission of their own free will. I think you're confusing being weird as gently caress with being unhappy. stev fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 19:41
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Sir Kodiak posted:I can go along with culture being a collection of things, I suppose, but I wouldn't have thought of skin color as one of them. Note, you didn't include it in your list, and I feel like it would look weird there: "A culture is a collection of things, such as language, history, values, apparel, skin color, cranial dimensions, dick size..." If we are talking about African-American culture specifically, then yes skin color is a pretty important component of it. With culture in general, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Germany and Ireland are both predominantly white countries, but nobody is going to confuse German or Irish cultures, or not see distinct differences because of that. Similarly, African-American culture has very little in common with Congolese culture. The white people in the film aren't abducting black people so they can have the surgery and go on and live black lives. That would probably be an interesting story, but not really what the concern is with white people co-opting black culture, and it's not what happens in the movie. To give an example outside of the movie: co-opting of culture for some reason is really popular when discussing music, and a few years back there were a ton of white dudes who really liked to talk about how much they liked hip-hop. Not gangsta rap with its glorification of violence, objectification of women, and all around frivolity. They liked intellectual hip-hop, which is music that is about issues,and is deep and has meaning. The problem if you know the history of the music, is that the original intellectual hip-hop artists are also the original gangster rappers. The gangster rapper and the intellectual hip-hop artist grew up in the same neighborhood, listened to the same music growing up, and are inspired by the same sources. They are two pieces of one whole. And now when you search for the best intellectual hip-hop these are the types of lists you get: http://www.thisblogrules.com/2014/07/examples-intellectual-hip-hop.html http://listverse.com/2011/11/29/10-brilliant-examples-of-intellectual-hip-hop/
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Mar 23, 2017 22:14
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Lmaoquote:I changed my mind about it when I first heard Macklemore sing. Since then I started listening to Grieves, Atmosphere and many more. Nevermind, i wont derail this thread Lil Mama Im Sorry fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 22:30
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Simplex posted:If we are talking about African-American culture specifically, then yes skin color is a pretty important component of it. With culture in general, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Germany and Ireland are both predominantly white countries, but nobody is going to confuse German or Irish cultures, or not see distinct differences because of that. Similarly, African-American culture has very little in common with Congolese culture. There's obviously a connection between black culture in the United States and physical appearance, but I'm just not seeing anything that justifies the idea that black culture is being co-opted by the dude with the old-man clothes in the movie Get Out. When everything about the guy other than the literal black body distance him from stereotypes of black culture to move him to closer to stereotypes of an old, well-off, clueless white guy, I don't see the value in reading the movie as representing "white liberals wanting to co-opt black culture because it's 'exotic' or 'cool'." Like, to use your example, if Logan was trying to sell "intellectual hip hop," and wanted to be black in order to make it seem more authentic, I'd see it. You could totally make that movie, white people stealing black bodies so that they could say the n-word. This movie is so clearly not that, that I don't know why you'd want to torture the idea of what's essential to a culture just to make the movie about cultural appropriation. I mean, I get why Escobarbarian did it, he was just making GBS threads out a quick post because someone pointed out that all he'd done in this thread is comment about the posting style of one specific other poster. But I don't see the reading of the film that's actually going somewhere with this idea.
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Mar 23, 2017 22:38
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DeimosRising posted:woof. yikes. Just some straight-shootin'  my man 
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Mar 23, 2017 23:11
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Sir Kodiak posted:Like, to use your example, if Logan was trying to sell "intellectual hip hop," and wanted to be black in order to make it seem more authentic, I'd see it. You could totally make that movie, white people stealing black bodies so that they could say the n-word. This movie is so clearly not that, that I don't know why you'd want to torture the idea of what's essential to a culture just to make the movie about cultural appropriation. This is actually a quick aside in The Invisibles.
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Mar 23, 2017 23:56
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