Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

Darth Windu: Mar 17, 2009; by Smythe

Samog posted:

Give humans +2 long blades and pointy ears

Best way to make humans a cool race would be to let the player choose to boost a couple or three apts and/or make them random!!!!! This idea is copyright me.

# ? Mar 22, 2017 23:58

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# ? May 14, 2024 12:04

Devlan Mud: Apr 10, 2006; I'll hear your stories when we come back, alright?

so why haven't the devs added weapons other than giant clubs and giant spiked clubs to the ogre (enemy) weapon generations tables if they aren't supposed to use those? :colbert:

# ? Mar 23, 2017 00:00

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

Make humans Star Trek humans. +1 apts across the board, except +5 evo. Disallowed from casting spells or worshiping gods. All sentient monsters have a chance of joining the federation and becoming a permanent ally Beogh-style when you first meet them.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 00:02

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Haifisch posted:

I'm still not sure why it's a problem for GSC to be their Thing. It's like complaining about magic being a no-brainer on DE - no poo poo it's a no-brainer, that's the entire loving point of the species!

If minmay wants a species that's an undifferentiated blob, they can go play Human. But nobody plays Hu, because it turns out undifferentiated blob species are boring.

I don't think it's a problem; I think GC/GSC should be their thing, like polearms for Merfolk. I'm just saying what would need to happen if you wanted it to not be their thing.

Decrepus posted:

Add LARGE ogre-sized weapons of all types. ~~Anime~~ Quadruple sword, Paul Bunyan axe, etc.

Let's do this, actually.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 00:04

Yngwie Mangosteen: Aug 23, 2007

SKULL.GIF posted:

That's mistaken, minmay is not part of the dev team.

Much the same way Ivanka Trump isn't a member of the White House staff.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 00:16

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

Darth Windu posted:

Are minqmay and minmay not the same person? Becaus the former has repeatedly claimed to be a dev, and in any case their feedback is over valued by the devs

If I played even a fraction of what that person plays, I'd probably start to have very different notions of what fun and interesting is (4k+ games online, supposedly mostly plays offline). As someone who's spent way too much time in other games before and still does (mostly the fighting game genre) it becomes increasingly difficult for me to track how I started vs where I am now. It's also extremely difficult for me to empathize with problems new fighting game players have because it's been so long since I've been there that it feels alien to me by now. However, it's important to strongly consider those new players and their experiences (or even intermediate players) when trying to make fighting games more fun; they comprise the bulk of your playerbase after all. I think this applies to any game with a high skill ceiling, period. Crawl does a great job in this regard by regularly introducing QOL changes, for example.

There's certain insights that only advanced or very experienced players will have, but if fun is part of the goal it's important to consider feedback from multiple angles, and I'd even go as far as saying that skilled/experienced players are not necessarily any more qualified than an average player with a working knowledge of Crawl's mechanics, but they are certainly able to speak of the experiences they have at their level of play.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 00:19

Johnny Joestar: Oct 21, 2010; Don't shoot him?

...
...

Devlan Mud posted:

so why haven't the devs added weapons other than giant clubs and giant spiked clubs to the ogre (enemy) weapon generations tables if they aren't supposed to use those?

because large races and giant clubs exist in a really awkward state right now and instead of tackling that people would rather gently caress around with aptitudes for some reason

# ? Mar 23, 2017 00:30

Can Of Worms: Sep 4, 2011; That's not how the Triangle Attack works...

Devlan Mud posted:

so why haven't the devs added weapons other than giant clubs and giant spiked clubs to the ogre (enemy) weapon generations tables if they aren't supposed to use those?

Enemy ogres can spawn with polearms. :ssh:

# ? Mar 23, 2017 00:37

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

Floodkiller posted:

I don't think it's a problem; I think GC/GSC should be their thing, like polearms for Merfolk. I'm just saying what would need to happen if you wanted it to not be their thing.

Oh, I was responding to minmay's weird stance and not to you. Although like others have said, minmay has a habit of stating their opinions as self-evident fact, which also means they're very bad at explaining why they think things are problems. And Tavern seems a lot less willing to call people out on their poo poo than this thread is.

Decrepus posted:

Add LARGE ogre-sized weapons of all types. ~~Anime~~ Quadruple sword, Paul Bunyan axe, etc.

The ogre-sized short blade would just be a long sword.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 00:44

Devlan Mud: Apr 10, 2006; I'll hear your stories when we come back, alright?

Can Of Worms posted:

Enemy ogres can spawn with polearms.

Can't play as an ogre mage any more can ya??

# ? Mar 23, 2017 00:44

someone awful.: Sep 7, 2007

Ogre Magi mobs usually have polearms over gscs.

Efb:

Devlan Mud posted:

Can't play as an ogre mage any more can ya??

That's entirely what the change was about though: making ogres more magey.

It was mostly good but the m&f aptitude change was bad.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 00:45

Nuclearmonkee: Jun 10, 2009

If only it was possible to have smarty ogres and retard ogres at the same time.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 00:56

Devlan Mud: Apr 10, 2006; I'll hear your stories when we come back, alright?

Yeah ogres being able to cast again is cool and good, ogres learning maces slower than polearms and staves because of fuckin' arbitrary "a bloo bloo why does one of two races able to use this weapon always use this weapon???" is goddamned stupid, and laughably so IMO.

I'd be perfectly happy with a 0 apt in maces, right alongside polearms and staves, the +3 was kinda ridiculous, but -1 is just lovely game design on par with mummies and crap. If you're gonna make ogres into mummies just remove 'em and I'll play a maces troll instead.

e: I wont actually play trolls

# ? Mar 23, 2017 01:02

Samog: Dec 13, 2006; At least I'm not an 07.

it's cool when aptitudes are big

# ? Mar 23, 2017 01:05

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

Samog posted:

it's cool when aptitudes are big

Yeah, part of my experience of playing merfolk and old ogres is the visceral Good Feel of having a comparatively huge number that eclipses everything else and lets you become strong at a fast pace.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 01:12

gammafunk: Dec 19, 2015

quote:

I agree that the low M&F aptitude is still dumb for Ogres, since it doesn't actually create an interesting decision for Ogres in the slightest. One of the major reasons people pick large races is to use large equipment.

We have "one of the major reasons" for choosing Ogre is using large weapons and yet we're not creating decisions "in the slightest" by making it favorable for them to use other weapons. This seems contradictory, since you're implying there are multiple reasons, yet those other reasons apparently aren't considered in the slightest. The truth is that using large weapons doesn't have to be a consideration when choosing Ogre now that you can think more in terms of what magic you might want.

quote:

People will choose M&F on Ogres anyway: either they want to use a GC/GSC, or they are using a shield and will want to use M&F for the best shield based weapons. -1 isn't going to make any difference over a higher aptitude other than making it take longer to train.

This is also wrong, people will certainly pick up a polearm with a shield or a lajatang. There is really no reason no reason for them not to do so. About a third of the new ogre online trunk wins with 15 skill or higher in weapon skill are polearm wins.

quote:

At that point, you've actually taken options from ogre being anything other than being a lovely, healthy spellcaster (which Draconian and Hill Orc do way better).

Ogres are better spellcasters than either of those, having more MP and HP with very similar or better spellpower for nearly all schools. And arguing that ogres won't be "anything other" than a mage is hilarious and demonstrably false (look at what people have played in online trunk as new ogres).

# ? Mar 23, 2017 01:25

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

Okay but why are axes and long blades at -3?

e: And shortblades but shortblades are more specialised and distinct as a weapon class.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 01:32

World Famous W: May 25, 2007; BAAAAAAAAAAAA

Why can't maces be the same level as polearms and staves? That would satisfy me enough to drop it finally.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 01:41

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

If you're interested, tavern already had a (pretty heated) discussion about new ogres: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23246

Long story short new ogre is pretty set in stone. I have no idea if there's wiggle room for a slight M&F apt improvement but I think that would make the most people happy.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 01:49

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

I suspect that a lot of changes won't be rolled back because it would set a precedent that enough bitching could reverse them.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 02:30

Darth Windu: Mar 17, 2009; by Smythe

No it would set a precedent that the devs give a poo poo about their playerbase which is empireically false

# ? Mar 23, 2017 02:40

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

Triple swords got restored because of persistent whining

# ? Mar 23, 2017 02:51

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Which is amazing considering its a pure flavor thing.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 02:51

Sojenus: Dec 28, 2008

well there are no triple swords in tolkien so that was inevitable

# ? Mar 23, 2017 02:55

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

So what you're saying is we need to bring back High Elves but rename them Triple Elves. They have three heads, but can still only wear one hat/helmet because reasons.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 03:13

Sojenus: Dec 28, 2008

Triple Elves uniquely have access to Quadruple Swords, but in order to ensure players have a wide variety of viable equipment choices, have a -4 Long Blades aptitude.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 03:33

someone awful.: Sep 7, 2007

The difference between bitching and critique is mostly just word count

# ? Mar 23, 2017 03:40

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

Haifisch posted:

So what you're saying is we need to bring back High Elves but rename them Triple Elves. They have three heads, but can still only wear one hat/helmet because reasons.

The first head wears the hat, the second head wears the amulet, the third head wears the scarf.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 03:58

Devlan Mud: Apr 10, 2006; I'll hear your stories when we come back, alright?

You finish putting on the scarf "Jece" {rC+}.

:downs:

# ? Mar 23, 2017 04:32

Thalamas: Dec 5, 2003; Sup?

Well, drat. Got close with an Octopode for once, then bam! YASD.

code:

630697 Thalamas the Maledictor (level 27, -3/189 HPs)
             Began as an Octopode Enchanter on Mar 17, 2017.
             Was an Initiate of Gozag.
             Slain by an Orb Guardian (32 damage)
             ... on level 4 of the Realm of Zot on Mar 22, 2017.
             The game lasted 07:31:06 (93580 turns).

Thalamas the Maledictor (Octopode Enchanter)       Turns: 93580, Time: 07:31:06

Health: -3/189     AC: 13    Str: 15    XL:     27
Magic:  18/45      EV: 27    Int: 27    God:    Gozag
Gold:   1960       SH: 20    Dex: 27    Spells: 4/62 levels left

rFire    + + +     SeeInvis +   X - +9 rapier (elec)
rCold    + + .     Gourm    .   r - +3 buckler {AC+3}
rNeg     + + +     Faith    .   J - +2 hat
rPois    +         Spirit   .   c - brooch of Shielding {Reflect SH+8}
rElec    +         Reflect  +   i - ring "Voog" {rPois rN+ Int+4 SInv}
rCorr    +         Harm     .   v - ring of the Octopus King {rCorr AC+1 EV+1 Str+1 Int+1 Dex+1}
MR       +++++     Clarity  +   I - ring "Xaomouj" {rF+ rC- rN+ AC+6 Dex+5}
Stlth    +++++++++.             R - ring of Nirghux {rElec rF+ rC++ rN+}
Regen    1.9/turn               l - ring of Ryloacutat {rElec rF+ Dex+4}
MPRegen  0.3/turn               M - ring "Uqovi" {+Fly rC+ MP-9 Dex+3 Stlth+}
                                d - ring of Jaclalen {+Blink MR+ MP+9 Stlth+}
                                e - ring of Miari Hufixt {MR++ Str+4 Int-4 Stlth-}

@: gold aura, regenerating
A: almost no armour, stealthy swim, amphibious, 8 rings, constrict 8, camouflage
1, clarity, regeneration 1, gelatinous body 1
}: 3/15 runes: decaying, silver, gossamer
a: Potion Petition, Call Merchant, Bribe Branch, Renounce Religion, Evoke Blink,
Evoke Flight

# ? Mar 23, 2017 05:52

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

gammafunk posted:

We have "one of the major reasons" for choosing Ogre is using large weapons and yet we're not creating decisions "in the slightest" by making it favorable for them to use other weapons. This seems contradictory, since you're implying there are multiple reasons, yet those other reasons apparently aren't considered in the slightest. The truth is that using large weapons doesn't have to be a consideration when choosing Ogre now that you can think more in terms of what magic you might want.

This is also wrong, people will certainly pick up a polearm with a shield or a lajatang. There is really no reason no reason for them not to do so. About a third of the new ogre online trunk wins with 15 skill or higher in weapon skill are polearm wins.

Ogres are better spellcasters than either of those, having more MP and HP with very similar or better spellpower for nearly all schools. And arguing that ogres won't be "anything other" than a mage is hilarious and demonstrably false (look at what people have played in online trunk as new ogres).

I'll admit to using hyperbole: there are more options available with the change to the spell school aptitudes than they used to have, and they still have higher HP than most other species with a high HP modifier and high Fighting aptitude. However, other spellcasting based species usually also have a draw to the player to that would make them interesting and 'fun' to choose: Draconians don't worry about body armor encumbrance while enjoying decently high AC and get a breath weapon and cool color, Demonspawn get mutations, Demigods can focus Int to insane levels and can eventually beat the MP values, Humans are much more flexible, Deep Elfs can cast for days and will have better MP, Kobolds have decent dodging and stealth bonuses and can sustain repeated casting of higher level spells without a reasonable spellcasting level, Centaurs and Spriggans can kite, Gargoyle gets insane AC for a spellcaster, Octopode gets loads of rings, Felids get lives and kiting and the sustain (but make up for it in their own terrible way with super low HP, to be fair), Hill Orc and Merfolk also get to be really good at a weapon aptitude to use while investing in spells, Mummies have undead traits and also have a better spellcasting aptitude, etc. Having high HP on Ogres is interesting to players at first, but in practice they realize that the high HP is just to make up for the garbage defenses until you luck into some dragon scales, resulting in most players preferring having less HP and much more accessible defenses (both aptitude and armor slot wise). The real defining, unique feature that draws players into playing Ogres, in my opinion, is being one of two large species and having access to large equipment that they can never use on any other species (and you are mainly playing a gimmick Troll if you are going to use anything other than your natural weapons and best weapon aptitude of UC). If no large species are actually encouraged to use GC/GSC over other weapons, then why have them in the first place?

Speaking of best weapon aptitude, how many of those polearm wins are likely because polearms/staves are now Ogre's highest weapon aptitude? Many players don't really experiment with the lower weapon aptitudes on species (even if they are still positive, like Hill Orcs), and will just pick the best aptitude, or pick from among the highest ones (if there is no specific highest aptitude) with the best weapon they find within the first five dungeon floors or so. Additionally, you say "There is really no reason for them not [to pick up a polearm with a shield or a latajang]"; forgive me if I'm interpreting this wrong, but doesn't that mean that you personally expect Polearms/Staves to be the default/optimal weapon type, and that only gimmick players will pick anything else?

I (and many others) aren't really asking (or expecting) the +3 aptitude to come back, but what really hurts the design/interesting choices to bring M&F at least up to Polearms/Staves level of 0 and at least show less experienced players that they are still encouraged to mess around with going for a big club anyway?

Alternatively, why not one of the following:
a) GSC/GC be replaced with Greatspears and Great Spiked Spears, so that the non-casting Ogre monsters are adjusted to fit the new flavor
b) Trolls get a bump up in M&F to match (or exceed) their UC and also give them more interesting choices than being a single focus species
c) Just get rid of GSC/GC since they just seem to be considered problematic by default.

# ? Mar 23, 2017 06:05

Samog: Dec 13, 2006; At least I'm not an 07.

I am asking for the +3 aptitude to come back

# ? Mar 23, 2017 06:32

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

Samog posted:

I am asking for the +3 aptitude to come back

The +3 apt is having a drink with the mountain dwarves and they'll both be back soon

# ? Mar 23, 2017 06:57

tote up a bags: Jun 8, 2006; die stoats die

Samog posted:

I am asking for the +3 aptitude to come back

+3 M&F is the new leave council alone is the new bring back high elves is the new where the gently caress is hive

all of which i agree with

# ? Mar 23, 2017 07:01

Samog: Dec 13, 2006; At least I'm not an 07.

I have discovered a truly marvelous proof that the objective principles of video game design require the return of +3 m&f, which this post box is too small to contain

# ? Mar 23, 2017 07:03