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EdEddnEddy posted:Well, the Xbox One also is literally Windows 10, so whatever they do to Fix Zen to work on Desktop Windows 10, potentially can be backported to fix whatever changes Zen would be from Jaguar. No. Most games on the system do not run in the full Windows-based OS (formerly built from Windows 8, now built from Windows 10) used for the applications. The Xbox One runs a real time operating system at the root which contains a hypervisor. This hypervisor then has a fairly full featured version of Windows 10 to handle the applications, the main system menu, and certain game functionality like networking - it's capable of running every application on the Windows 8/10 app store at its heart, although tons of those apps are not actually allowed on the system. There's then another very stripped down OS that the majority of the games run on, which is built from the Windows codebase, but is not really Windows 8 or 10 compatible - its fairly easy to port games from this environment to a desktop and vice versa though.
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Mar 21, 2017 21:56
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Rastor posted:I've seen multiple rumors that Scorpio will at least ditch the 32MB of ESRAM, Ditching the ESRAM is pretty much guaranteed. It's a feature that needs to be specifically designed for, and since they're not the lead platform they're not getting that type of buy-in. Much like the Cell's extra processors were not that advantageous for the PS3, but even moreso since MS doesn't have Naughty Dog to make a showcase game for their system and seems to be cutting way back on first party development altogether. Even if scorpio is unlikely to get Zen cores, they could still get upgraded post-jaguar stuff. (Carrizo was the latest mobile platfrom developed from the jaguar sucessors, right?) But it's also just as likely that MS keeps the CPU in parity with PS4Pro and swings hard at GPU, to try to be "more 4k" than the competition. But also keep in mind with all Scorpio rumours: Nadella doesn't think gaming is MS's core biz, and the chances that they throw money into selling a console at a loss in an attempt to regain dominance is minuscule. So unless you think there is a market for a $800 console, you shouldn't believe that they will put $800 worth of chips in it.
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Mar 21, 2017 22:16
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fishmech posted:No. Most games on the system do not run in the full Windows-based OS (formerly built from Windows 8, now built from Windows 10) used for the applications. Interesting, I was just going to ask you to expound on this a little, thanks for doing so. Is there really no scheduler at all in the game-mode though? It's just 1 core = 1 thread forever? Nobody over-schedules the processor a bit to help deal with bubbles in the pipeline or fires off some async tasks or anything like that? I never really thought about it but this is interesting stuff. Got any sources to read more on this?
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Mar 22, 2017 01:52
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Paul MaudDib posted:Interesting, I was just going to ask you to expound on this a little, thanks for doing so. There's schedulers and things like that, but it's not really the same as what goes on in normal Windows 10. It's also not clear if the OS partition used for most games ever got "updated" to "Windows 10" the way that the OS partition used for the system software and now UWP apps did. This is a short overview of the original architecture from launch: http://wccftech.com/xbox-one-architecture-explained-runs-windows-8-virtually-indistinguishable/ The updates in fall 2015 brought in the Windows 10 upgrade for the system OS, Microsoft Edge to replace Internet Explorer as the browser, and UWP/Windows App Store support, as well as the backwards compatibility program for selected 360 games. More in-depth info on how all this works is restricted to licensed developers - the "Dev Mode" environment that any Xbox One owner is allowed to use is restricted to UWP applications and games that run on the Windows 10 based system parittion instead of the full capabilities of the normal game partition.
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Mar 22, 2017 02:48
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Klyith posted:Even if scorpio is unlikely to get Zen cores, they could still get upgraded post-jaguar stuff. (Carrizo was the latest mobile platfrom developed from the jaguar sucessors, right?) But it's also just as likely that MS keeps the CPU in parity with PS4Pro and swings hard at GPU, to try to be "more 4k" than the competition. Puma+ actually, likely on 14nmFF LPP. It could be a further derivative, such as L3/L4 cache, native octocore, improved IPC or much higher clockspeeds, but most assuredly it's not going to be any Construction core type. In the end though, Microsoft is likely aiming to use a hybrid Polaris/Vega GPU to reach a consistent 4K60 at medium settings using checkerboard rendering, as well as Ultra settings when at 1080p while trying to burden the GPU as much as possible. I'd say I'd be jealous of a Puma++ native 8 core for NAS or HTPC but then it seems Zen can scale down really well into the 20-35W range so I hope for cheap low speed Opterons on AM4.
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Mar 22, 2017 03:01
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Okay, somebody help me out here. What is going on with this utter lack of compatible 32 GB ram kits? Let alone ones with clock speeds above 3000? I am looking at compatibility list after compatibility list and it is _making me very sad_.
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Mar 22, 2017 04:53
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If you don't mind DDR4 2133 or slower there are plenty of 32GB kits that will work. Any of them really. Its the faster stuff that has a hard time working. Generally getting to DDR4 3000 or higher is really hard if you fill all 4 DIMM slots. And the dual sided high cap (so pretty much all 16GB DIMMs right now) are very hard to get working at over DDR4 2666. If you give it a couple more months more kits should show up and the firmwares will mature too but right now you're kinda boned if you want a large amount of RAM + high RAM speeds with any Ryzen. Unless you're willing to try to overvolt the crap outta some "B" die DRAM like Buildzoid and other extreme OC'ers but I wouldn't trust that to last 24/7 for long.
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Mar 22, 2017 05:12
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SwissArmyDruid posted:Okay, somebody help me out here. What is going on with this utter lack of compatible 32 GB ram kits? Let alone ones with clock speeds above 3000? I am looking at compatibility list after compatibility list and it is _making me very sad_. Zen has a weird and limited choice of MT/s and timings to choose from (the memory controller is tied into all kinds of internal poo poo and can't be arbitrarily clocked around) and there's not a lot of kits that are guaranteed to be stable at the speeds it runs at. In theory there's nothing stopping you from taking some DDR4-3000 and finding some appropriate timings at 2933 or whatever weird-rear end speed it runs at. Or, Samsung B-die is apparently the poo poo to have iirc?
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Mar 22, 2017 05:18
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It might still be, except that commodity DRAM prices are on the rise AGAIN, I was hoping somebody might also chime in with "Hey, speeds above 3000 will work once AMD pushes that update that unlinks Infinity Fabric from memory clocks!" but my disgust with this situation and how I keep seeing "DDR4 2400 MHz and higher memory module will only run at maximum of DDR4 2400Mhz due to AMDŽ chipset limitation when using 7 th Gen A series CPU" on every single mobo manufacturer's website.
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Mar 22, 2017 05:36
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SwissArmyDruid posted:It might still be, except that commodity DRAM prices are on the rise AGAIN, This poo poo isn't really something you're going to fix with BIOS updates. It's something that's pretty much inherent to the v1.0 silicon. Best hope is we get some motherboards that are less touchy about timings, or are smart enough to automatically retime common speeds to one of the 3 settings that Zen supports, or something like that. I don't see there being any "give" in Ryzen itself.
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Mar 22, 2017 05:39
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SwissArmyDruid posted:my disgust with this situation and how I keep seeing "DDR4 2400 MHz and higher memory module will only run at maximum of DDR4 2400Mhz due to AMDŽ chipset limitation when using 7 th Gen A series CPU" on every single mobo manufacturer's website. Its just right now Intel's BIOS is more mature + the DRAM market has had more time to tune the memory for Intel's stuff is all. Paul MaudDib posted:This poo poo isn't really something you're going to fix with BIOS updates. It's something that's pretty much inherent to the v1.0 silicon. I don't know why they set it like that and why they made it almost impossible to change right now but that is a big reason why its so hard to get higher clocked DRAM for Ryzen. Very hard to get high clocks + tight timings out of any DRAM period even for Intel too. PC LOAD LETTER fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 06:16
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Especially considering that higher-clocked RAM has a direct correlation to performance with the stupid Infinity Fabric crap that's going on right now, and AMD needed every knob it could get its hands on for stacking benchmarks.
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Mar 22, 2017 06:59
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SwissArmyDruid posted:It might still be, except that commodity DRAM prices are on the rise AGAIN, Check the QVLs on your specific board. If you look through the B350 boards you will see they aren't really tested above 3000 right now so you might have better luck looking at X370 boards. Paul MaudDib posted:This poo poo isn't really something you're going to fix with BIOS updates. It's something that's pretty much inherent to the v1.0 silicon. Best hope is we get some motherboards that are less touchy about timings, or are smart enough to automatically retime common speeds to one of the 3 settings that Zen supports, or something like that. I don't see there being any "give" in Ryzen itself. They are already pushing out microcode updates and bios updates 
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Mar 22, 2017 08:01
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Even the X370 boards. Honestly, I'm resigned to just waiting until... I guess we could broadly call it the 2nd wave of motherboards? When AMD finally unfucks their IOMMU groups and ASRock starts to do the fun poo poo like iKVM so I can do virtualization shenanigans. SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 08:08
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SwissArmyDruid posted:Even the X370 boards. I get the feeling that all these "workstation class" boards will be X399 based. 
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Mar 22, 2017 08:51
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Paul MaudDib posted:Interesting, I was just going to ask you to expound on this a little, thanks for doing so.
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Mar 22, 2017 08:55
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fishmech posted:Current games on the Xbox One rely on not ecountering a bottleneck for communication between the cores of the type the current Zen CPUs have between cores 0-3 and cores 4-7. PS4/Xbone CPU consists of two seperate quad core Jaguar clusters and developers map threads to physical cores because migrating between the clusters kills performance.
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Mar 22, 2017 09:07
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Two separate quadcore clusters, and migrating between the clusters kills performance. Man, why does that sound so familiar?
SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 12:58
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SwissArmyDruid posted:Two separate quadcore clusters, and migrating between the clusters kills performance. Man, why does that sound so familiar? Kentsfield and Yorkfield ed: speaking of which, the R3's with a single CCX will be a beast for perf/w if they aren't running at 1.35v to reach their clockspeeds Risky Bisquick fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 14:46
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I remember the Xbox One Insider build that updated it to Windows 10 early on had a lot of changes for some games like Forza 6 so they must have been doing something to the underlying OS that the games run on. Forza didn't go UWP until Forza Horizons 3 I believe. Also, don't swap out the HDD for a bigger one when on the Insider Preview and reset the console after unless you want to wait months for that insider build to be older than the Official builds to get everything back up and running lol. However, Xbox One is much better with a 2TB drive than it is with a slow 500G drive that is for sure.
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Mar 22, 2017 17:35
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Risky Bisquick posted:Kentsfield and Yorkfield  Even though those were only quadcore and not octocore. :shhh: SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 17:55
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:If you don't mind DDR4 2133 or slower there are plenty of 32GB kits that will work. Any of them really. I'm curious. If that stick is rated for 3200 at 1.35 volts, why would we need to increase the voltage? Surely, the instability is coming from the memory controller and not the sticks itself, no? Why does it seem like everyone with a Ryzen system is "overclocking" their RAM to its rated speed? It should only be the memory controller that is being overclocked, right?
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Mar 22, 2017 18:02
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Any speed over 2133 is considered overclocking.
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Mar 22, 2017 18:36
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Something something, technically correct, something worst kind of correct. I mean, JEDEC standards are not like SAAMI standards, they're more like absolute minimums.
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Mar 22, 2017 19:15
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Risky Bisquick posted:They are already pushing out microcode updates and bios updates I think the assumption is that they're physically wired to the same clock and microcode can't change that.
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Mar 22, 2017 19:27
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5cqOtWz5sU TL;DW is that the R5 1600X has very similar performance to an R7 1800X in games, the R5 1500X falls behind slightly assuming all clocks are the same. R5 1500X has the full 16MB L3, the R5 1400 apparently only has 8MB L3. Out of compared games of Ryzen @ 4.0Ghz and Kaby Lake @ 4.8Ghz (7700K, 7600K, 7350K), on price to performance, and minimum framerates the Ryzen offerings are much better. There are some instances where Ryzen is able to pull ahead in GPU limited scenarios. If you're a 100% budget conscious then the G4560 is still the way to go, but the R5 1500X is fairly compelling for a midrange build and the R5 1600X seems to actually be a good compromise between gaming performance, price, and work performance. If you absolutely need gaming performance, get a 7700K, and if price isn't a concern, go X99.
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Mar 23, 2017 03:09
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FaustianQ posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5cqOtWz5sU I thought that was a pretty strong showing from the Ryzen CPUs there, especially seeing as the 7700K is overclocked.
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Mar 23, 2017 09:19
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Lolcano Eruption posted:I'm curious. If that stick is rated for 3200 at 1.35 volts, why would we need to increase the voltage? For latency this is good and lower latency main memory is generally a good thing. For top DRAM clocks, its bad. Right now people are focusing lots on pumping up the DRAM clocks since that also improves the IF bus speeds which can give you a nice (~10%) boost in performance, particularly in games, if you can get it up to DDR4 3200. You'll still see nice performance scaling at DDR4 2933 though. Sometimes more volts can help with that issue. Sometimes it won't since lots of DRAM just can't run fast with a 1T command rate or other lower timings. Don Lapre posted:Any speed over 2133 is considered overclocking. PC LOAD LETTER fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 11:42
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x399 16c 32t 180w ES  https://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_s_rumoured_180w_16-core_ryzen_part_will_reportedly_run_at_3_1_3_6ghz/1
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Mar 23, 2017 13:59
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HalloKitty posted:I thought that was a pretty strong showing from the Ryzen CPUs there, especially seeing as the 7700K is overclocked. Min frames at 4ghz Vs 4.8ghz kaby, if that's really a trend I want one. Is that really a thing? Really want to see more frametime info.
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Mar 23, 2017 14:13
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Risky Bisquick posted:x399 16c 32t 180w ES Ohhh if IOMMU groups get unfucked I'm gonna have a hell of a boner for an over the top home server.
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Mar 23, 2017 14:27
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Yea after getting pissed at my NAS Run Plex server again that just can't give me a movie file untouched, and fails on the conversion because of some stupid reason it won't tell me, I am seriously considering a super light Ryzen build in the future if things pan out. Hell I could get something like a 1400X and underclock it to make it sip power but still able to transcode stuff in 1/16th the time vs this drat E-450. I don't think I blame the E-450 for my issues as much as I do FreeNAS which I continue to regret using over Nas4Free more and more each day.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:44
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EdEddnEddy posted:Yea after getting pissed at my NAS Run Plex server again that just can't give me a movie file untouched, and fails on the conversion because of some stupid reason it won't tell me, I am seriously considering a super light Ryzen build in the future if things pan out. Hell I could get something like a 1400X and underclock it to make it sip power but still able to transcode stuff in 1/16th the time vs this drat E-450. This might be down the path of madness, but you could also just display all your media for the plex server on a network share and have a separate machine mount it and be the plex server. Could let the lightweight NAS OS just do its thing as a NAS alone and have another machine running Ubuntu or CentOS or something that runs applications.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:46
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EdEddnEddy posted:Yea after getting pissed at my NAS Run Plex server again that just can't give me a movie file untouched, and fails on the conversion because of some stupid reason it won't tell me, I am seriously considering a super light Ryzen build in the future if things pan out. Hell I could get something like a 1400X and underclock it to make it sip power but still able to transcode stuff in 1/16th the time vs this drat E-450. I'm really contemplating remuxing/reencoding my entire library to apple compliant mp4 (h264 L4.2, 2ch acc, 5.1 ac3 only), seeking an mp4 with plex is so much faster than mkv on an atv4
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Mar 23, 2017 17:38
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Perplx posted:I'm really contemplating remuxing/reencoding my entire library to apple compliant mp4 (h264 L4.2, 2ch acc, 5.1 ac3 only), seeking an mp4 with plex is so much faster than mkv on an atv4 The last time I re-encoded a load of MKV files that Plex refused to play to MP4 they had a terrible audio sync issue that got worse and worse as the file went on. Never again.
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Mar 23, 2017 17:43
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Lungboy posted:The last time I re-encoded a load of MKV files that Plex refused to play to MP4 they had a terrible audio sync issue that got worse and worse as the file went on. Never again. Or learn how to do it right...
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Mar 23, 2017 17:44
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taqueso posted:Or learn how to do it right... Aye, there was probably a single setting I missed somewhere in VLC but it was a rush job and I didn't have time to research how to do it.
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Mar 23, 2017 17:53
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MKV works fine, Plex just wanted to transcode the audio I am guessing or something instead of leaving it the F alone and playing the file native like every device in my house can do. That's the only thing about Plex that pisses me off royally. (That and the Shield TV not autoupdating my library for reasons I can't seem to figure out.  Every time I mess with MP4, it just goes to poo poo either with audio, audio sync, subtitles, video quality, nothing I seem to do keeps things consistent and working nearly as good as MKV does these days. Also I don't have any Apple stuff outside of a free iMac I got since the person who wanted me to fix it wouldn't pay for it after. I wanted to switch to Nas4free, and let the Shield TV run as the Plex Server for everything, but until they update it to be on par with Nas/PC server level features and reliability, I can't seem to do that just yet. Maybe I'll get something like a super cheap NUC box for exactly that instead I guess.
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Mar 23, 2017 18:16
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Lungboy posted:The last time I re-encoded a load of MKV files that Plex refused to play to MP4 they had a terrible audio sync issue that got worse and worse as the file went on. Never again. What client devices/apps were you using where Plex couldn't play your MKV encodes? Plex really should have no problem playing back anything you throw at it, unless you really botched the encode somehow. EdEddnEddy posted:MKV works fine, Plex just wanted to transcode the audio I am guessing or something instead of leaving it the F alone and playing the file native like every device in my house can do. That's the only thing about Plex that pisses me off royally. (That and the Shield TV not autoupdating my library for reasons I can't seem to figure out. Your Plex server transcoding audio is determined by the client app/device, not the server itself. And your Shield TV is capable of 'Direct Playing' nearly any kind of media via the Plex app (i.e., no need for transcoding), so something could be wrong with how you have it set up. As for your library auto-updating issue, is your Plex Media Server using local storage, or are your libraries pointed to network shares? If the latter, Plex's library auto-update feature typically won't work with network shares mounted via SMB, NFS, AFP, etc. [edit] I'm the OP of the Plex thread, so feel free to bring up any other issues you're having there. 
teagone fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 20:42
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teagone posted:What client devices/apps were you using where Plex couldn't play your MKV encodes? Plex really should have no problem playing back anything you throw at it, unless you really botched the encode somehow. I was just trying to move a MKV of one of my movies to my Nexus 6P to then later Cast to a TV at my GF place. No idea what it errored out on but what irritates me is just do a pure copy stream of the audio from my rips so if it just would give me the original file, the phone/player could just pick the audio track that works like it would if I would have done it by just copying from the NAS directly. Also the Shield runs a different version of the Plex Server that doesn't seem to be feature parity yet with the NAS/PC version. Lots of settings and options are missing that sort of make it a bit annoying at times. The Shield has a built in ability to map network drives which works fine right up until I believe it does an app update, then I have to relaunch the thing manually and get it to scan for changes one again. The Shield TV itself is great, but Android TV does have some irritating limitations which I wish I could kick whatever Google/Nvidia engineer in the nuts that's responsible for taking things away. (Like the touchpad thats on the OG Shield Gamepad) drat would it be nice if I could just mouse over and click on that option in ES File Explorer than having to play with the Stick/D-Pad until I can finally highlight the option I am trying to reach. 
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Mar 23, 2017 21:29
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