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The Kingfish posted:That's simply not true. A society that doesn't know how to wage war would be a moral society than our own. The knowledge of how to wage war is inherent in man. From the moment we raise a stick to kill a predator, we understand that the same can be done to that annoying rear end in a top hat across the valley who keeps stealing all the good rocks.
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Mar 23, 2017 13:46
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Liquid Communism posted:The knowledge of how to wage war is inherent in man. From the moment we raise a stick to kill a predator, we understand that the same can be done to that annoying rear end in a top hat across the valley who keeps stealing all the good rocks. I have a suspicion that in the context of the Christian creation myth there aren't any cavemen.
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Mar 23, 2017 18:59
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Panzeh posted:If he's God, he didn't really die, now did he? It's a phony sacrifice. When the revolutionary sacrifices himself to bomb a czar, he is done. He only lives in the memory of others. When Jesus dies, who cares? He's God. Well he did actually die, and go into hell.
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Mar 23, 2017 19:16
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Crowsbeak posted:Well he did actually die, and go into hell. For a whopping three days, big deal. At least when Elvis died for my sins he had the decency to stay dead.
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Mar 23, 2017 20:48
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Who What Now posted:For a whopping three days, big deal. At least when Elvis died for my sins he had the decency to stay dead. Well he's just waiting for the day of judgement.
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Mar 23, 2017 21:35
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Crowsbeak posted:Well he's just waiting for the day of judgement. Wasn't that supposed to happen within the lifetimes of his disciples?
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Mar 23, 2017 21:58
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Who What Now posted:Wasn't that supposed to happen within the lifetimes of his disciples? No this is the age of the church only when it ends will he return.
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Mar 23, 2017 22:22
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Cingulate posted:The first post on this page contains the word "tempt". Kingpin says a society which has no means to consider war should be praised for not considering war. It's not about "praising." A society that has no concept of war is an objectively moral society in the area of war. As moral as a society that knows how to wage war and chooses not to.
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Mar 23, 2017 22:23
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The Kingfish posted:A society that doesn't know how to wage war is necessarily one that doesn't have the intent to wage war. I'll take the metaphor one step further and say a society that doesn't know about war is as moral as a society that knows about war but never wages it. Do ants have the knowledge of how to wage war?
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Mar 23, 2017 22:35
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If I had to guess I would say they don't know anything at all.
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Mar 23, 2017 22:38
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The Kingfish posted:I don't know. If I had to guess I would say they don't know anything at all. They seem pretty good at practicing war, despite this.
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Mar 23, 2017 22:42
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The Kingfish posted:It's not about "praising." A society that has no concept of war is an objectively moral society in the area of war. As moral as a society that knows how to wage war and chooses not to. It is better for its neighbors in the sense of material quality of life. It is better to live in. But it's not morally praise-worthy. (In moral philosophy, praise-worthy and blame-worthy doesn't mean you should hold public celebrations or condemnations, it's just the terminology for moral appraisal.)
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Mar 23, 2017 22:48
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Crowsbeak posted:No this is the age of the church only when it ends will he return. Then shouldn't you be trying to destroy the church to bring about salvation?
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Mar 23, 2017 23:19
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Who What Now posted:Then shouldn't you be trying to destroy the church to bring about salvation? I think that perhaps God might consider that cheating.
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Mar 23, 2017 23:21
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The whole garden of eden thing either celebrates unquestioning obedience or the idea that ignorance is bliss. Both things are fundamentally anti-human.
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Mar 23, 2017 23:23
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The unquestioning obedience part possibly but the ignorance is bliss part is pretty drat human.
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Mar 23, 2017 23:24
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Who What Now posted:Then shouldn't you be trying to destroy the church to bring about salvation? You can't force the hand of God. Only heretics like Lahaye believe that.
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Mar 23, 2017 23:26
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OwlFancier posted:The unquestioning obedience part possibly but the ignorance is bliss part is pretty drat human. You can't separate one from the other. Also humans cherishing ignorance is still anti-humanity.
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Mar 23, 2017 23:27
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Agnosticnixie posted:You can't separate one from the other. Also humans cherishing ignorance is still anti-humanity. I'm not sure you entirely get to redefine humanity as only that section of it which thinks that knowing everything all the time is desirable.
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Mar 23, 2017 23:32
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OwlFancier posted:I'm not sure you entirely get to redefine humanity as only that section of it which thinks that knowing everything all the time is desirable. Children are inherently curious. Punishing that curiosity is bad and generally stifling. Also it's not "knowing everything" it's knowing anything at all that hasn't been preapproved by the divine figure. Celestial despots are just as bad as worldly despots.
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Mar 23, 2017 23:50
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I would posit that the reason children are curious is because they don't know enough to know that knowing things is tangential at best to happiness. And I wouldn't really ask children for life advice.
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Mar 23, 2017 23:56
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Knowledge is its own goal, even if it makes you unhappy. Simple happiness/joy is not sufficient for human well being, you also need self-respect, socialization, and purpose. That's what 'self-actualization' is.
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Mar 24, 2017 02:07
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'Blissful ignorance' is actually something people find anxious and stressful, because the truth never really goes away, you are always aware, on some subconscious level, that what you see isn't real. Eg- people in the first world are aware that they are surrounded by suffering, even if this knowledge never impacts their day to day life. But it still has an effect on their mind, which expresses itself in various ways, from guilt (self-flagellation) to prejudice (rationalization/self-deception). Blissful ignorance is then an oxymoron, unless you're referring to the kind of bliss that removes or inhibits your ability to think ie- drugs rudatron fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 02:13
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rudatron posted:Knowledge is its own goal, even if it makes you unhappy. Simple happiness/joy is not sufficient for human well being, you also need self-respect, socialization, and purpose. That's what 'self-actualization' is. The latter are methods of ensuring the former. Also goals that make people unhappy are bad goals. rudatron posted:'Blissful ignorance' is actually something people find anxious and stressful, because the truth never really goes away, you are always aware, on some subconscious level, that what you see isn't real. That would appear to be a problem of lack of ignorance, then, if you are aware of a thing you aren't ignorant of it.
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Mar 24, 2017 02:45
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Conscious ignorance didn't preclude subconscious ignorance. As long as you're aware, on some level, you'll get those symptoms. And if you have subconscious ignorance, you're effectively no longer sentient anymore.
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Mar 24, 2017 02:57
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I mean, or you just don't know something. That's also possible. It's a bit... weird to suggest that people subconsciously know stuff and that's why they're assholes, maybe some people are just assholes. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 02:58
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Also simple joy isn't a first order goal. If I hooked you up to a machine that pumped drugs into you, so that you never felt bad, whatever happened, would you really agree to get in? How does that sound like a good idea?
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Mar 24, 2017 02:59
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rudatron posted:Also simple joy isn't a first order goal. If I hooked you up to a machine that pumped drugs into you, so that you never felt bad, whatever happened, would you really agree to get in? How does that sound like a good idea? Sounds fine to me so long as you've got enough to share with the class?
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Mar 24, 2017 03:00
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Crowsbeak posted:You can't force the hand of God. Only heretics like Lahaye believe that. So then I don't have the free will to actively work against God's plan?
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Mar 24, 2017 03:45
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I think the idea is you have the free will to try but obviously God having a bit of an advantage still gets to decide when the world ends.
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Mar 24, 2017 03:48
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Who What Now posted:So then I don't have the free will to actively work against God's plan? When did i say that you could not have free will?
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Mar 24, 2017 04:14
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Crowsbeak posted:When did i say that you could not have free will? When you said I can't force the hand of God.
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Mar 24, 2017 04:26
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Who What Now posted:When you said I can't force the hand of God. Well in the sense that you can't bring about judgement day. God decides that, you cannot create the conditions because that is entirely up to God.
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Mar 24, 2017 06:48
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Crowsbeak posted:Well in the sense that you can't bring about judgement day. God decides that, you cannot create the conditions because that is entirely up to God. So is Donald the second coming? Cause he's gonna start throw down three
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Mar 24, 2017 08:12
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Tonetta posted:So is Donald the second coming? Cause he's gonna start throw down three Perhapse he will start ww3 , but I doubt that.Of course I also recognize that the word of God will continue even if Man or the Earth shall perish.
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Mar 24, 2017 09:20
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Well I'm glad that you worship a deity whose image is relatable to a 5yo with magnifying glass and a lighter next to an ant hill.
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Mar 24, 2017 09:46
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Tonetta posted:Well I'm glad that you worship a deity whose image is relatable to a 5yo with magnifying glass and a lighter next to an ant hill.
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Mar 24, 2017 09:57
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Crowsbeak posted:Well the day of Judgement means the end of everything, and a new creation. I don't see how that relates to a five year old burning ants. Because that's exactly what a 5 year old burning an anthill does? A destructive petulant being destroys the lives of millions without batting an eye. Then the actual workers are left to rebuild things.
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Mar 24, 2017 11:04
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Crowsbeak posted:Well in the sense that you can't bring about judgement day. God decides that, you cannot create the conditions because that is entirely up to God. If it's completely arbitrary and up to god then what does it matter that we're in the "age of the church"?
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Mar 24, 2017 12:28
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Who What Now posted:If it's completely arbitrary and up to god then what does it matter that we're in the "age of the church"? That's one of the many, many hangups about an omniscient and omnipotent god. The Church can talk a lot of poo poo about how you should behave, but God could do literally anything at any moment, no matter what they say.
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Mar 24, 2017 13:24
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