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I would also point out that the two or three random Auriok Champions that most tokens lists would play gave them a poo poo ton of leverage against Jund since it was basically impossible to kill them. It is also why I think B/W token is in a (relatively) good position right now because burn has cropped up as a counter to Death's Shadow, and those classic token builds destroy burn with Champion and Timely Reinforcements.
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Mar 24, 2017 00:08
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AlternateNu posted:I would also point out that the two or three random Auriok Champions that most tokens lists would play gave them a poo poo ton of leverage against Jund since it was basically impossible to kill them. It is also why I think B/W token is in a (relatively) good position right now because burn has cropped up as a counter to Death's Shadow, and those classic token builds destroy burn with Champion and Timely Reinforcements. Champion while good, doesn't very little against trample. It also doesn't have protection from green. It also has to survive a discard spell to make it on the battlefield.
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Mar 24, 2017 00:20
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Sickening posted:Champion while good, doesn't very little against trample. It also doesn't have protection from green. It also has to survive a discard spell to make it on the battlefield. Nothing in Jund (or Death's Shadow) has trample except for Battle Rage, and you'll nominally gain 6+ life with Auriok by the time they can set up Battle Rage. It basically forces the DS player to make the first move since it can just chump DS forever, and it isn't hard to hold up a single removal spell for that moment they pull the trigger. AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 00:41
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AlternateNu posted:Nothing in Jund (or Death's Shadow) has trample except for Battle Rage, and you'll nominally gain 6+ life with Auriok by the time they can set up Battle Rage. You are missing an important creature in the deck. https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/gf/Ghor-Clan%2BRampager%2B%255BMM3%255D.jpg Not only can it give trample like battle rage, it can be played, and it can be tutored for by 4 cards in the deck. A death shadow with battle rage doesn't give a poo poo about your 6 life gained most of the time. I like b/w tokens. Chump blocking can be good, but the deck doesn't line up very well against death shadow. AlternateNu posted:It basically forces the DS player to make the first move since it can just chump DS forever, and it isn't hard to hold up a single removal spell for that moment they pull the trigger. Holding cards in hand isn't a strength vs a deck with 8 discard spells and lily.  .
Sickening fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 00:43
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Sickening posted:Champion while good, doesn't very little against trample. It also doesn't have protection from green. It also has to survive a discard spell to make it on the battlefield. It depends how aggressive their start is. BW Tokens has a very good matchup against decks like Jund, but I'm not really sure how it would work with a much more aggressively slanted version of the same thing. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 01:00
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Angry Grimace posted:It depends how aggressive their start is. BW Tokens has a very good matchup against decks like Jund, but I'm not really sure how it would work with a much more aggressively slanted version of the same thing. You get your teeth kicked out by t4-5 and cant stabilize unless your winbrisk heights has what you need or your draws are sweet. Thats anything aggro that doesn't care about how wide you go.
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Mar 24, 2017 01:03
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Sickening posted:You are missing an important creature in the deck. Yup. Forgot about Rampager, but they only run one or two, and it just doesn't have that much of an impact. You keep leaning on the fact that they run a poo poo ton of discard while ignoring the fact that tokens runs the exact same poo poo minus Lili. And the 6 life from Champion is just a buffer until you get Sorin out and give all your fliers +1 and lifelink. And that's assuming no other pumps in play.
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Mar 24, 2017 01:03
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Sickening posted:You are missing an important creature in the deck. Liliana of the Veil is a horrible card against BW Tokens. It plays more discard than DSJ does, and plays 4 copies of Lingering Souls. If you actually cast a Liliana of the Veil against BW Tokens you're probably either punting or losing. Last Hope obviously is better.
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Mar 24, 2017 01:05
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Angry Grimace posted:It depends how aggressive their start is. BW Tokens has a very good matchup against decks like Jund, but I'm not really sure how it would work with a much more aggressively slanted version of the same thing. Well two decks share plenty of the same cards but end up playing two different gameplans. The death shadow curve is just really good. Goyf gets in just as fast but is often much bigger. Again, while chump blocking is really good, an attacking 14/14 trampler or a 10/10 trampling double striker is an extremely common thing by turn 3/4. That isn't something a deck full of chump blockers wants. Angry Grimace posted:Liliana of the Veil is a horrible card against BW Tokens. It plays more discard than DSJ does, and plays 4 copies of Lingering Souls. B/W tokens plays more than 8 discard spells? What janky list is this? Sickening fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 01:06
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Count Bleck posted:
if they're never gonna bring back counterspell they should make dissolve the default counter over cancel at least
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Mar 24, 2017 01:08
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Sickening posted:Well two decks share plenty of the same cards but end up playing two different gameplans. The death shadow curve is just really good. Goyf gets in just as fast but is often much bigger. Dude, it's not a serious deck in 2017. Every tokens list is janky by default. The way a BW Tokens deck beats DSJ is managing to pull of a Fatal Push or a Path at the right time, that's about it. mandatory lesbian posted:if they're never gonna bring back counterspell they should make dissolve the default counter over cancel at least They're not bringing Dissolve back all the time because Dissolve was far more powerful than any of the other 3 mana counters. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 01:11
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far more powerful means playable
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Mar 24, 2017 01:17
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mandatory lesbian posted:far more powerful means playable Yeah, "powerful" feels like an odd way of putting it, since at its heart Dissolve doesn't do anything that's wildly stronger on a mechanical level than any other hard counter, it just has a little extra rider that adds half a card's worth of value so that it's, like you said, playable.' Cryptic Command is powerful. Dissolve is a counterspell that you don't actively feel bad about putting in your deck.
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Mar 24, 2017 02:00
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JerryLee posted:Yeah, "powerful" feels like an odd way of putting it, since at its heart Dissolve doesn't do anything that's wildly stronger on a mechanical level than any other hard counter, it just has a little extra rider that adds half a card's worth of value so that it's, like you said, playable.' Don't underestimate how good it is to have a deck full of incidental scry because it's extremely good in the kind of deck that wants hard counters.
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Mar 24, 2017 02:15
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Angry Grimace posted:Don't underestimate how good it is to have a deck full of incidental scry because it's extremely good in the kind of deck that wants hard counters. Scry attached to cards is exactly what a format like standard needs more of. Dissolve is in no way powerful or too good for standard. Its a good card that is should be considered safe to always print.
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Mar 24, 2017 02:24
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Sickening posted:Scry attached to cards is exactly what a format like standard needs more of. Dissolve is in no way powerful or too good for standard. Its a good card that is should be considered safe to always print. I didn't say it was too powerful. Just that it's more powerful than I think they like to make it evergreen because it does lead to draw go. The temples weee a big part of that too of course. C-Euro posted:I thought Tokens had a good, or at least respectable, matchup vs. Jund? Regular Jund is its best matchup. But it's the fairest deck in an unfair format. There's a reason you can't even find one on MTGGoldfish. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 02:27
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Angry Grimace posted:I didn't say it was too powerful. Just that it's more powerful than I think they like to make it evergreen because it does lead to draw go. The temples weee a big part of that too of course. I agree that a few people in R&D must think this way because standard has suffered from bad design decisions like these. Lets hope it changed.
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Mar 24, 2017 02:29
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Angry Grimace posted:Regular Jund is its best matchup. But it's the fairest deck in an unfair format. There's a reason you can't even find one on MTGGoldfish. Yeah I slowly accumulated all of the cards for it by chance but haven't bothered to sleeve it up. But when I do it'll be with 4 Polymorph and one Emrakul as my sole creature 
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Mar 24, 2017 03:39
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Draw Go is always good so they should definitely do whatever it takes to make it a viable deck in any format again.
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Mar 24, 2017 04:18
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The Shortest Path posted:Draw Go is always good so they should definitely do whatever it takes to make it a viable deck in any format again. Reprint Mana Drain in Amonkhet.
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Mar 24, 2017 04:28
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Angry Grimace posted:Liliana of the Veil is a horrible card against BW Tokens. It plays more discard than DSJ does, and plays 4 copies of Lingering Souls. If you actually cast a Liliana of the Veil against BW Tokens you're probably either punting or losing. Last Hope obviously is better. This guy gets it, lotv and 1 for one removal suck rear end against the tokens deck. My heart jumps a beat when you path or terminate a token (if you cant trade 1/3 of a card for 1 card, you are too stingy) but maelstrom pulse exists and so does abrupt decay, both of which can really jack up your anthems and bitterblossoms leaving you with a limp pud in your hand. Even with a 4/3 split on IoK and thoughtsieze jund plays the same or better cards than you. Ask me about the sourpuss you get from curb stomping Affinity, that is actually a good matchup for tokens and not hard to do. Tl;dr B/W tokens is a really cool fair deck that has way more bad matchups than good and will until modern slows down some
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Mar 24, 2017 04:39
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They should be far more liberal with slapping scry 1 on cards. It does wonders for smoothing out the worst part of magic. Why doesn't bw tokens run lotv? Seems good with lingering souls. e: to the poster above I can assure you grixis delver is a good match up for tokens! My friend used to play it before he built abzan company and it was a rough time. Spot removal and two toughness fliers don't match up well. Pontius Pilate fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 04:49
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Pontius Pilate posted:They should be far more liberal with slapping scry 1 on cards. It does wonders for smoothing out the worst part of magic. Half-ironic suggestion: Bring back Clash instead.
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Mar 24, 2017 04:50
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Pontius Pilate posted:They should be far more liberal with slapping scry 1 on cards. It does wonders for smoothing out the worst part of magic. The playerbase?
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Mar 24, 2017 05:17
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Hellsau posted:Reprint Mana Drain in Amonkhet. WotC: Got it! We'll reprint Plasm Capture for you!
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Mar 24, 2017 05:30
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PleasantDirge posted:Tl;dr B/W tokens is a really cool fair deck that has way more bad matchups than good and will until modern slows down some B/W tokens is never really going to be anything more than a T2 fair deck, especially with Abzan around. It doesn't lose as hard to the bad matchups and also plays the best card in BW, Lingering Souls and replaces the rest of the bad cards with good ones.
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Mar 24, 2017 05:33
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Some Numbers posted:WotC: Got it! We'll reprint Plasm Capture for you! I mean UUG Mana Drain but colored mana sounds pretty great and also probably not even good enough against Vehicles.
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Mar 24, 2017 05:47
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Cards too powerful for Standard: Celestial Purge Cancel Doom Blade Lightning Strike Naturalize
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Mar 24, 2017 05:54
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there are at least four strictly better cancels I can think of off the top of my head in standard right now the truth is bad enough, there's no need for hyperbole
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Mar 24, 2017 06:19
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Elyv posted:there are at least four strictly better cancels I can think of off the top of my head in standard right now Plus versions of doom blade and naturalize that are much better for eternal formats.
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Mar 24, 2017 06:58
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ThePeavstenator posted:B/W tokens is never really going to be anything more than a T2 fair deck, especially with Abzan around. It doesn't lose as hard to the bad matchups and also plays the best card in BW, Lingering Souls and replaces the rest of the bad cards with good ones. This is super true. I liked the deck and its a cool budget-ish deck that gets you 1/3-2/3 of the way towards several t1-2 decks but t2 is def its home. I don't need a positive win % to stay happy so I had a lot of fun exploring modern with it and 8 whack when I was feeling ADD Also I feel like Modern is diverse and interesting like the old Chinese curse not novel.
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Mar 24, 2017 14:47
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JerryLee posted:Half-ironic suggestion: Bring back Clash instead. Scry 1, then clash with an opponent
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Mar 24, 2017 14:49
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http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/update-standard-2017-03-24 I don't know what I wanted him to say. I feel like I got the impression that they gave up on standard until the next set, which might be fair.
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Mar 24, 2017 16:04
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Sickening posted:http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/update-standard-2017-03-24 Gotta get those people talking and buying those modern masters packs, of course. And not hold any modern events. 
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Mar 24, 2017 16:12
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I'm still expecting to see cat or saheeli banned with Amonkhet. It's going to be a format-defining combo (overshadowing a lot of what the newer sets try to do) for literally the next 3 blocks otherwise. I don't think just banning it mid-season would have really improved the last few weeks of AER standard though, so it's pretty reasonable that they looked at everything and decided not touching it until rotation was the best plan.
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Mar 24, 2017 16:14
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Sickening posted:http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/update-standard-2017-03-24 I was watching pro tour m15 last night it just took me back to a time when standard was good and people were playing so many decks red aggro jund monsters gabriel nassif was playing some mazes end there was like 10+ different viable decks in the 6-0 matches
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Mar 24, 2017 16:29
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Hot take: If a Planeswalker is part of a 2-card combo, they are never banning the Planeswalker.
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Mar 24, 2017 16:30
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Toshimo posted:Hot take: If a Planeswalker is part of a 2-card combo, they are never banning the Planeswalker. this isn't a hot take
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Mar 24, 2017 16:35
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Stoddard posted:There's a balancing act here—repeated banning events, especially in a short time frame, are a blow to player confidence. On the other hand, stale and uninteresting formats cause players to drift away from Standard. Since there are no bans we felt confident would significantly improve the format, we took the approach we felt has the best chance of a good outcome when all is said and done. This is entirely reasonable. The problem with Standard can't be solved without printing new cards (ANSWERS), and banning out cards from the current top decks will still leave us in a 2-deck format, just like the last round of bans. If bans are going to shake up confidence without actually making the format better, it's honestly the right call at this point to say "Welp, Standard is hosed, see you all in a few months." Stoddard posted:We are also having a lot of discussions internally about what makes for a fun Standard and how hard to push all of the individual themes in our sets—especially as Standard goes from having two major block themes to having four instead. For one, I think that pushing the block mechanics themes pretty hard in two-block world was a good idea, because it helped make each block feel different and helped each year of Standard have more definition. When moving from two to three or four themes per year, we suddenly ran into problems, and in the end, I think we pushed those individual themes too hard. But this is entirely the wrong lesson to learn from current standard. The problem with current standard isn't "too many themes". On the contrary, it basically only has two blocks' worth of themes, since BFZ block's mechanics aren't showing up at all. The problem is that you printed absolutely no answers for the two mechanics that are actually doing anything at all in standard. This reads like the lesson they're taking away here is that two-set blocks should be more like BFZ -- flavorless sludge with weak, dull mechanics, to keep Standard simple and generic, so having a whopping three blocks' worth of keywords-that-actually-matter doesn't make players' heads explode from complexity.
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Mar 24, 2017 16:36
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The optimist in me read that more as them being too focused on letting the cards shine interrupted and assuming that more competing mechanics would create more decks, but yeah I'm really hoping their "lesson" wasn't "make the same cards but weaker" instead of "print answers"
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Mar 24, 2017 16:42
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