UKMT March 2017 - Blame it on the Bourgie - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT March 2017 - Blame it on the Bourgie

Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed.
Jeremy Corbyn	95	18.63%
Dennis Skinner	53	10.39%
Angus Robertson	20	3.92%
Tim Farron	9	1.76%
Paul Ukips	7	1.37%
Robot Lenin	105	20.59%
Tony Blair	28	5.49%
Pissflaps	193	37.84%
Total:	510 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

Seaside Loafer: Feb 7, 2012; Waiting for a train, I needed a shit. You won't bee-lieve what happened next

jBrereton posted:

Are you going to vote for a member of the PLP in the next election

Depends who it is innit.

# ? Mar 25, 2017 20:33

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# ? May 16, 2024 18:42

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

I think I'll vote for my guy even if he's a prat. But I suppose it depends what the boundary review does. It'd be nice if I could get lumped in with Andy's constituency but unlikely.

# ? Mar 25, 2017 20:35

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

feedmegin posted:

So uh for the 5 out of 6 of us or so in England or Wales you're saying there isn't another pro EU option, on the face of it.

Well, I'd suggest you look at the Greens policy more closely. I just don't have much reason to because the party up here is different. But yes, if you value the EU & economic liberalism higher than anything else, the Lib Dems seem like the perfect party for you. Of course if you think economic liberalism has been pretty terrible as far as reducing inequality, protecting the planet for future generations & all that, obviously you should seriously consider whether you'd be better supporting a party that supports things like reducing inequality, protecting the health service & also the planet, rather than voting for a party who will ultimately have no impact on Brexit, which will likely be irreversible by the time of a May 2020 election, despite best hopes the country comes to its senses and stop this nonsense.

And even if it wasn't irreversible, and even if the Liberals somehow do better than the Liberal Democrats & Liberal Party have done since Herbert Asquith was leader, they'd still not have enough seats to stop Brexit. You'd be looking at them doing as well as they did in 1910 before there's even a hint of a chance of them stopping Brexit, and as hopelessly out of his depth as Jeremy Corbyn is, if the Lib Dems get over 270 seats at the next general election, I'd be more than amazed.

Even in some fantastical world where the Lib Dems do better than they did under Charlie Kennedy, at a time when the Greens are about to overtake them as the 4th party in Scotland (notable because so much of Scotland used to be Liberal heartlands, going back to the Crofters Party), and increase their number of MPs by 70 or 80, Brexit is still happening. But I guess if you value economic liberalism & the EU that highly, by all means go for it.

forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Mar 25, 2017

# ? Mar 25, 2017 21:14

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

forkboy84 posted:

Well, I'd suggest you look at the Greens policy more closely. I just don't have much reason to because the party up here is different. But yes, if you value the EU & economic liberalism higher than anything else, the Lib Dems seem like the perfect party for you. Of course if you think economic liberalism has been pretty terrible as far as reducing inequality, protecting the planet for future generations & all that, obviously you should seriously consider whether you'd be better supporting a party that supports things like reducing inequality, protecting the health service & also the planet, rather than voting for a party who will ultimately have no impact on Brexit, which will likely be irreversible by the time of a May 2020 election, despite best hopes the country comes to its senses and stop this nonsense.

And even if it wasn't irreversible, and even if the Liberals somehow do better than the Liberal Democrats & Liberal Party have done since Herbert Asquith was leader, they'd still not have enough seats to stop Brexit. You'd be looking at them doing as well as they did in 1910 before there's even a hint of a chance of them stopping Brexit, and as hopelessly out of his depth as Jeremy Corbyn is, if the Lib Dems get over 270 seats at the next general election, I'd be more than amazed.

Have you ever voted Lib Dem?

# ? Mar 25, 2017 21:19

Paxman: Feb 7, 2010

Seaside Loafer posted:

Depends who it is innit.

Are you actually a member of the Labour Party? (You seemed to confirm to Pissflaps earlier that you are)

# ? Mar 25, 2017 21:27

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Pissflaps posted:

Have you ever voted Lib Dem?

Probably. Council elections are done by Single Transferable Vote up here so I've probably given them a 4th or 5th preference.

# ? Mar 25, 2017 21:28

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

New polling finds that the public would much rather prefer Soft Brexit to Hard Brexit.

# ? Mar 25, 2017 21:30

jabby: Oct 27, 2010

Party tribalism is terrible and criticising someone for switching parties when someone else proposed better policies is dumb.

TinTower posted:

New polling finds that the public would much rather prefer Soft Brexit to Hard Brexit.

quote:

With Labour effectively mute, the Liberal Democrats diminished and Ukip still frighteningly appealing, we lack clear strong voices in favour of economic pragmatism

When are the media ever going to admit that UKIP is not on the cusp of taking over?

jabby fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Mar 25, 2017

# ? Mar 25, 2017 21:32

Seaside Loafer: Feb 7, 2012; Waiting for a train, I needed a shit. You won't bee-lieve what happened next

Paxman posted:

Are you actually a member of the Labour Party? (You seemed to confirm to Pissflaps earlier that you are)

Yeah. Don't actually do anything apart from the couple of quid though. Not an activist. The greens still think im a member as well even though I haven't sent them any dollars for ages. Up until fairly recently I was still getting copied details of some council meetings in Brighton.

# ? Mar 25, 2017 21:36

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Bobstar posted:

If there's much of a difference between Green party and Labour party policy then at least one of them is doing something wrong.

Why? There have been yuge splits between eco-anarchists and anarcho-syndicalists on issues that benefit the planet to the detriment of the workers or vice versa, so I don't see why there wouldn't be similar ideological splits between Parliamentary ecologist and socialist parties.

Now if the Green party aren't actually ecologists or the Labour party aren't actually socialists then we might have an issue.

(Also it's highly possible to be a big 'this was better when it was all countryside' ecologist while being a social conservative, or be one of those old Marxists who think lesbians are stealing the means of production, so they're no guarantee of good opinions.)

# ? Mar 25, 2017 21:40

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

# ? Mar 25, 2017 22:03

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

forkboy84 posted:

Well, I'd suggest you look at the Greens policy more closely. I just don't have much reason to because the party up here is different. But yes, if you value the EU & economic liberalism higher than anything else, the Lib Dems seem like the perfect party for you.

Oh I'm still voting for socialism, comrade. I was just amused by your post that started off 'there's actually other pro-EU parties out there you can vote for' and then goes straight on to admit that for most people in this country there basically aren't.

# ? Mar 25, 2017 22:10

Don't Lol me: Sep 6, 2004

bit inaccurate, no daily mail proclaiming�that the daleks are claiming benefits or their free mansions.

# ? Mar 25, 2017 22:11

TomViolence: Feb 19, 2013; PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

I reckon the mail would be more like "Hurrah for the Daleks" tbh.

# ? Mar 25, 2017 22:18

Bobstar: Feb 8, 2006; KartooshFace, you are not responding efficiently!

Guavanaut posted:

Now if the Green party aren't actually ecologists or the Labour party aren't actually socialists then we might have an issue.

Yes sorry, I meant on the most zoomed-out possible scale, with the implication that Labour were being insufficiently socialist, while the Greens have had some explicitly socialist-sounding policies (certainly when compared to New Labour, the Lib Dems or the Tories), so it would make perfect sense for someone who voted Green since the early part of the century now to be showing an interest in Corbyn (if only thanks to FPTP).

Edit: Also, the tribalism thing Jabby said.

# ? Mar 25, 2017 22:22

Don't Lol me: Sep 6, 2004

TBF that's the�second thing that popped to mind.

# ? Mar 25, 2017 22:22

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

TinTower posted:

New polling finds that the public would much rather prefer Soft Brexit to Hard Brexit.

I'm feeling like after a brief period of idiotic jostling that will be what the UK and EU agree to.

# ? Mar 25, 2017 23:30

JFairfax: Oct 23, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

What do you feel this soft brexit agreement will consist of

Ps

Someone do a brexit hardness / softness chart along the lines of the Bristol stool chart

# ? Mar 25, 2017 23:52

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

JFairfax posted:

What do you feel this soft brexit agreement will consist of

Work visas and free trade plus a continued contribution/take not far from what we paid with the rebate, minus CAP which will be handled internally. I would assume, and assume is the key word here, that reaction to that set up will be used as a sounding board for how maastricht is changed (because it probably will be) in future.

# ? Mar 25, 2017 23:55

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

jBrereton posted:

minus CAP which will be handled internally

Cornwall hosed. So hosed.

# ? Mar 26, 2017 00:31

Ratjaculation: Aug 3, 2007

My work is making GBS threads itself over CAP and HLS funding. It's funny until I'm jobless

# ? Mar 26, 2017 00:43

big scary monsters: Sep 2, 2011; -~Ｓｋｕｌｌｗａｖｅ~-

Simon Jenkins has been saying much the same stuff we were talking about the other day about giving terrorists lots of lovely publicity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcLUZP1DSio

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/24/coverage-westminster-attack-media-politicians

# ? Mar 26, 2017 01:05

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Got 2 years of it left mate plus whatever else. We're not not in the EU yet.

# ? Mar 26, 2017 01:05

limited: Dec 10, 2005; Limited Sanity

TinTower posted:

Well, you've obviously got the script for the new series pilot, so spill the beans, who's going to be playing the Doctor this time?

# ? Mar 26, 2017 01:16

Uncle Kitchener: Nov 18, 2009; BALLSBALLSBALLSBALLS
BALLSBALLSBALLSBALLS
BALLSBALLSBALLSBALLS
BALLSBALLSBALLSBALLS

I think I'll vote tory. The libdems and labour have been a real shut show. Tories are actually holding it together somewhat.

# ? Mar 26, 2017 01:36

Dabir: Nov 10, 2012

Uncle Kitchener posted:

I think I'll vote tory. The libdems and labour have been a real shut show. Tories are actually holding it together somewhat.

too transparent

# ? Mar 26, 2017 01:38

Jippa: Feb 13, 2009

Uncle Kitchener posted:

shut show.

New Zealander spotted.

# ? Mar 26, 2017 08:12

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

Simon Wren-Lewis:

quote:

Let me start at the end of the UE piece.

�The case against austerity does not depend on whether it is �good economics�, but on its human impact. Nor does the case for combating climate change depend on the present discounted value of future costs to GDP. Reclaiming political debate from the grip of economics will make the human side of politics more central, and so can only serve a progressive purpose.�

Austerity did not arise because people forgot about its human impact. It arose because politicians, with help from City economists, started scare mongering about the deficit. We had �maxed out the nation�s credit card� and all that. That line won not one but two UK elections. Opponents of austerity talked endlessly about its human impact, and got nowhere. Every UK household knew that your income largely dictates what you can spend, and as long as the analogy between that and austerity remained unchallenged talk about human impact would have little effect.

...

This is the mistake that progressives make. They think that by challenging mainstream economics they will somehow make the economic arguments for regressive policies go away. They will not go away. Instead all you have done is thrown away the chance of challenging those arguments on their own ground, using the strength of an objective empirical science.

at the heart of lot of pointless intra-left heat without light is, I think, this conviction that the voter cannot possibly be this contemptuous, cruel, callous, and other words starting with the letter c. I wonder how long that illusion lasts?

(as an aside, this is an odd use of the word 'progressive', which is traditionally associated with Taylorism and objective/scientific management toward universal ends, quantitatively gauged - neoliberalism's ideological predecessor, so to speak)

# ? Mar 26, 2017 11:08

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

"The only way to defeat austerity is to engage in unsolvable technical arguments" bleats literal ivory tower academic.

# ? Mar 26, 2017 11:30

Breath Ray: Nov 19, 2010

Firos posted:

Whoever it was that was posting about pensions earlier, thanks. I just realised my employer hadn't done what I'd asked with my pension so I'm now contributing 12.5% rather than 3% to my pension (I'm 25)

That was me

# ? Mar 26, 2017 11:43

big scary monsters: Sep 2, 2011; -~Ｓｋｕｌｌｗａｖｅ~-

I can agree that appeals to emotion and decency alone are clearly not enough to sway an electorate. But I find rather strange the claim that if progressives, however he uses that term, were to have simply put forward strong economic counterarguments to austerity with mainstream economists onside, they might have carried the day.
As he points out, the arguments for austerity weren't based in mainstream economics in the first place, but on discredited fringe ideas. Many people (and economists) did argue against austerity on an economic basis, and were unsuccessful, because the argument wasn't being made on economic grounds.

His claim that economics requires an accepted mainstream to be seen as valid by the public may be true, but what exactly is he suggesting? There is an accepted mainstream economics in the UK, it's that of the national credit card. That it has such authority is exactly the problem. He stops shy of calling for "reputable" economists to come together en masse to set out an accepted wisdom, but even if they did it wouldn't work. Look at the autism and vaccines scare, look at climate change. Both cases where a huge body of evidence and almost the entire scientific profession were on one side of the argument, yet much of the public were on the other.

I'll leave aside the correctness of calling economics an "objective, empirical science". No doubt some economists are scientists though I'm not sure the discipline as a whole merits the term. But imposing a mainstream is not how science works, and giving the public the impression it is is dangerous, because it allows them to think that scientific consensus can be established by fiat rather than evidence. If we're in the realm of fantasy anyway, as we are if he thinks that it is scientists who get to decide what the accepted mainstream among the populace is, it'd be better to arm people with the analytic tools needed to decide for themselves whether the arguments being made make sense.

# ? Mar 26, 2017 11:45

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

Corbyn reaching new heights

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/845920955662843905

# ? Mar 26, 2017 11:46

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

big scary monsters posted:

I can agree that appeals to emotion and decency alone are clearly not enough to sway an electorate.

Brexit says otherwise m8

# ? Mar 26, 2017 11:54

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

lexiters were not motivated by emotion

Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Mar 26, 2017

# ? Mar 26, 2017 11:55

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

jBrereton posted:

Brexit says otherwise m8

Appeals to emotion work well, it's appeals to compassion alone that fall flat on their arse and die.

# ? Mar 26, 2017 11:55

dispatch_async: Nov 28, 2014; Imagine having the time to have played through 20 generations of one family in The Sims 2. Imagine making the original two members of that family Neil Buchanan and Cat Deeley. Imagine complaining to Maxis there was no technological progression. You've successfully imagined my life

End-to-end encryption on messaging services is unacceptable: UK minister

quote:

British interior minister Amber Rudd said on Sunday end-to-end encryption of messages offered by services like Whatsapp are "completely unacceptable" and there should be no "secret place for terrorists to communicate".

Local media have reported that shortly before launching an attack that killed four people including a policeman near Britain's parliament in central London, Khalid Masood sent an encrypted message via Whatsapp.

"That is my view - it is completely unacceptable, there should be no place for terrorists to hide. We need to make sure organizations like Whatsapp, and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret place for terrorists to communicate with each other," Rudd told the BBC's Andrew Marr show.

"We need to make sure that our intelligence services have the ability to get into situations like encrypted Whatsapp."

# ? Mar 26, 2017 11:55

big scary monsters: Sep 2, 2011; -~Ｓｋｕｌｌｗａｖｅ~-

jBrereton posted:

Brexit says otherwise m8

That wasn't an appeal to decency.

# ? Mar 26, 2017 11:56

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

dispatch_async posted:

End-to-end encryption on messaging services is unacceptable: UK minister

Amber Rudd in pretending that Whatsapp isn't already compromised shocker

# ? Mar 26, 2017 12:00

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

LemonDrizzle posted:

Appeals to emotion work well, it's appeals to compassion alone that fall flat on their arse and die.

Compassion is an emotion.

If you constrict "appeals to emotion" as "focus-grouped meanspiritedness for the intended consumption of the poor + thick" you're going to have a bad time, because there's lots of other appeals to emotion.

# ? Mar 26, 2017 12:02

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# ? May 16, 2024 18:42

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

jBrereton posted:

Compassion is an emotion.

If you constrict "appeals to emotion" as "focus-grouped meanspiritedness for the intended consumption of the poor + thick" you're going to have a bad time, because there's lots of other appeals to emotion.

Yes, it's an emotion. It's just one of the less effective emotions to appeal to, especially if it's the only one your party is capable of addressing or if your party is actively repelling voters on other moral/emotional axes.

# ? Mar 26, 2017 12:05

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