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There hasn't been a real discussion ITT for the last 33 pages.
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Mar 26, 2017 21:44
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And yet you keep posting with your snide bullshit, I wonder if that might be what killed the productive conversation.
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Mar 26, 2017 22:02
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To get back to the original question, let's take a look at how religiosity on a large scale relates to leftism! A list of counties by how important religion is Country Yes, important No, unimportant Sweden 17% 82% Estonia 16% 78% Denmark 19% 80% Norway[a] 21% 78% Czech Republic[a] 21% 75% Japan 24% 75% Hong Kong 24% 74% United Kingdom 27% 73% Finland[a] 28% 70% Vietnam 30% 69% France 30% 69% Australia[a] 32% 68% The Netherlands[a] 33% 67% New Zealand[a] 33% 66% Belgium[a] 33% 58% Cuba[a] 34% 64% Bulgaria[a] 34% 62% Russia 34% 66% Belarus 34% 56% Luxembourg 39% 59% Hungary 39% 58% Albania 39% 53% Latvia 39% 58% Germany 40% 59% Uruguay 41% 59% Switzerland 41% 57% Canada 42% 57% Lithuania 42% 49% South Korea 43% 56% Kazakhstan 43% 48% Taiwan[a] 45% 54% Ukraine 46% 48% Slovenia 47% 52% Slovakia[a] 47% 52% Spain 49% 51% Azerbaijan 50% 49% Uzbekistan 51% 46% Israel 51% 48% Serbia 54% 44% Ireland 54% 46% Austria[a] 55% 43% Belize[a] 62% 33% Argentina 65% 34% United States 69% 31% Croatia 70% 28% Chile 70% 29% Singapore 70% 29% Jamaica[a] 70% 30% Montenegro 71% 28% Greece 71% 28% Portugal[a] 72% 26% Italy 72% 25% Moldova 72% 19% Kyrgyzstan 72% 25% Mexico 73% 25% Armenia 73% 25% Poland 75% 19% Haiti[a] 75% 23% Cyprus 75% 25% Macedonia 76% 22% Botswana[a] 77% 23% Bosnia and Herzegovina 77% 21% Venezuela 79% 21% Costa Rica 79% 20% Turkmenistan 80% 18% Togo[a] 80% 13% Georgia 81% 16% Turkey 82% 15% Ecuador 82% 17% Iran[a] 83% 16% Colombia 83% 16% El Salvador 83% 16% Peru 84% 14% Iraq 84% 11% Nicaragua 84% 15% Honduras 84% 15% Romania 84% 12% South Africa 85% 15% Puerto Rico[a] 85% 14% Tajikistan 85% 12% Mozambique[a] 86% 14% Philippines 96% 4% Malta 86% 10% Brazil 87% 13% Dominican Republic 87% 13% Lebanon 87% 12% Zimbabwe 88% 12% Cote d'Ivoire 88% 12% Burkina Faso[a] 88% 12% Panama 88% 11% Angola[a] 88% 11% Guatemala 88% 9% Tanzania 89% 11% Bolivia 89% 10% Syria 89% 9% India 90% 9% Kosovo 90% 8% United Arab Emirates 91% 8% Kuwait 91% 6% Namibia[a] 92% 9% Trinidad and Tobago[a] 92% 8% Paraguay 92% 8% Pakistan 92% 6% State of Palestine 93% 7% Sudan 93% 7% Uganda 93% 7% Madagascar[a] 93% 7% Benin[a] 93% 7% Nepal 93% 6% Tunisia 93% 5% Saudi Arabia 93% 4% Central African Republic[a] 94% 6% Kenya 94% 6% Liberia[a] 94% 6% Democratic Republic of the Congo 94% 5% Bahrain 94% 4% Ghana 95% 5% Zambia 95% 5% Qatar 95% 4% Algeria 95% 4% Chad 95% 5% Rwanda 95% 5% Republic of the Congo[a] 95% 5% Mali 95% 3% Cameroon 96% 4% Malaysia 96% 3% Nigeria 96% 3% Cambodia 96% 3% Senegal 96% 4% Jordan[a] 96% 4% Myanmar[a] 97% 3% Afghanistan 97% 3% Laos[a] 97% 3% Guinea[a] 97% 3% Morocco 97% 2% Egypt 97% 2% Comoros 97% 2% Thailand 97% 2% Burundi 98% 2% Djibouti 98% 2% Mauritania 98% 2% Somaliland 98% 2% Somalia[a] 98% 2% Sri Lanka 99% 1% Malawi 99% 1% Indonesia 99% 1% Yemen 99% 1% Niger 99%+ 0% Ethiopia 99%+ 0% Bangladesh 99%+ 0% While obviously not a panacea to conservatism, it definitely seems like there is an extremely high correlation between countries being less religious and leaning much father left. While obviously not perfect, the lowest ranking countries include Sweden, Norway, Denmark, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc. that are among the most "leftist" counties. Rounding out the top in the 95+% is a hodgepodge of horribly repressive countries that swing wildly conservative. Russia and Japan are both low in religiosity, and they have has their own serious brands of conservative issues. But it does definitely seem like decreasing religiosity leads to more leftism. Let's take a look if this applies within the United States! All states, ranked by ... % of adults who are “highly religious” 1. Alabama 77% 1. Mississippi 77% 3. Tennessee 73% 4. Louisiana 71% 5. Arkansas 70% 5. South Carolina 70% 7. West Virginia 69% 8. Georgia 66% 8. Oklahoma 66% 10. North Carolina 65% 11. Texas 64% 11. Utah 64% 13. Kentucky 63% 14. Virginia 61% 15. Missouri 60% 16. South Dakota 59% 17. Ohio 58% 18. New Mexico 57% 19. Iowa 55% 19. Kansas 55% 19. New Jersey 55% 22. Florida 54% 22. Indiana 54% 22. Maryland 54% 22. Nebraska 54% 22. Wyoming 54% 27. Arizona 53% 27. District of Columbia 53% 27. Michigan 53% 27. North Dakota 53% 27. Pennsylvania 53% 32. Delaware 52% 33. Idaho 51% 33. Illinois 51% 35. California 49% 35. Minnesota 49% 35. Nevada 49% 35. Rhode Island 49% 39. Montana 48% 39. Oregon 48% 41. Colorado 47% 41. Hawaii 47% 43. New York 46% 44. Alaska 45% 44. Washington 45% 44. Wisconsin 45% 47. Connecticut 43% 48. Maine 34% 48. Vermont 34% 50. Massachusetts 33% 50. New Hampshire 33% It also appears that even within the United States increased religiosity correlates strongly to being more shittily conservative. On top of being objectively wrong tautologically, philosophically bunk, and morally questionable there are real world consequences in limiting entire nations and groups of people. It seems more like religion is generally limiting of leftism, not the other way around. The leftist countries and states do not ban religious worship at all, while religious counties do ban leftist policies and ideas.
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Mar 27, 2017 03:46
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Hmm. I notice Russia is high on that list. A great bastion of reason and social democracy, that Russia.
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Mar 27, 2017 05:49
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Crowsbeak posted:Hmm. I notice Russia is high on that list. A great bastion of reason and social democracy, that Russia. Hmmm I notice that I specifically pointed that out. Take an honest comparison of the bottom and top quartiles against each other in aggregate. It's not good.
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Mar 27, 2017 06:08
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RasperFat posted:Hmmm I notice that I specifically pointed that out. Take an honest comparison of the bottom and top quartiles against each other in aggregate. Hmm, I wonder if perhaps rather than obsessing whether a place is religious or not, you should instead try to be concerned whether people are starving or being ground down by bad regimes. Just a suggestion. I mean I know its easier to say. "THEIR DUMBOS AND LIVE HORRIBLY BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT RATIONAL LIKE ME". But maybe you need to delve deeper than such thinking. Also I would hardly call New Hampshire a bastion of leftism. Also Wisconsin is ground zero for Koch related sociopathy in America. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 06:41
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Crowsbeak posted:Hmm, I wonder if perhaps rather than obsessing whether a place is religious or not, you should instead try to be concerned whether people are starving or being ground down by bad regimes. Just a suggestion. I mean I know its easier to say. "THEIR DUMBOS AND LIVE HORRIBLY BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT RATIONAL LIKE ME". But maybe you need to delve deeper than such thinking. You seem to have a serious issue understanding trends and outliers. The less religious areas are, unsurprisingly, diverse but trend towards leftism. The highly religious areas trend strongly conservative. Maybe I actually give a poo poo and want to help these regions and the world in general approve. And religion seems to be a strong barrier to progressive change, so maybe we should be more critical of it. I haven't been 'sperging about "retarded sheeple" or whatever nonsense you're implying at all. Maybe you should try to address the facts instead of sidestepping with some straw man bullshit.
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Mar 27, 2017 07:07
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RasperFat posted:You seem to have a serious issue understanding trends and outliers.
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Mar 27, 2017 07:12
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Crowsbeak posted:They don't though, quite a few actually are koch labatories. Others are fascist dystonias. Maybe you should actually try to address real problems rather than your, faux concern over the fact that people in some of these places pray. Real problems? You mean like the prevalent rape culture in the United States? Like defunding and dismissing education? Like gender equality? Like climate change denial? All of these giant societal problems that are heavily entwined with religion? And by the way I've protested, volunteered, and/or donated for these causes and more so it's not just "faux concern". Decreasing religions role in policy and society is a catalyst for progressive change, not the impetus.
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Mar 27, 2017 07:25
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RasperFat posted:Real problems? You mean like the prevalent rape culture in the United States? Like defunding and dismissing education? Like gender equality? Like climate change denial? All of these giant societal problems that are heavily entwined with religion? Climate Change? Really? I mean it cannot be that there are people who have a interest in pushing it so they can protect their financial success. Also while I want to get rid of rape culture suggesting its a problem because of religion rather then poverty. (Like in the case of Russia, and Bulgaria). Education. I mean there are certain Chrisitan types that are part of this problem. But then a big push at killing education has been neoliberals who tend to be aligned with secularism.. Now Gneder equality I admit the churches, could work on but the rest seems to be you trying to find reasons to pretend to be superior to others. Rather then address problems at their core, income inequality.
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Mar 27, 2017 07:40
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Crowsbeak posted:Climate Change? Really? I mean it cannot be that there are people who have a interest in pushing it so they can protect their financial success. Also while I want to get rid of rape culture suggesting its a problem because of religion rather then poverty. (Like in the case of Russia, and Bulgaria). Education. I mean there are certain Chrisitan types that are part of this problem. But then a big push at killing education has been neoliberals who tend to be aligned with secularism.. Now Gneder equality I admit the churches, could work on but the rest seems to be you trying to find reasons to pretend to be superior to others. Rather then address problems at their core, income inequality. You don't think energy group think tanks used religion as a tool to spread climate change denial? It's part and parcel to being and evangelical American Christian. Income equality is of course a much larger issue and I don't dispute that. But don't pretend like religion actually helps with reducing income inequality instead of entrenching it. Education, especially in physical sciences, is no longer something that jives well with religion. That union started to erode when science started disproving dogma centuries ago, and now stands at a "nice but separate and have different points/goals" from the religious perspective. Not every sect is hostile to education, but again as a trend in the the modern world religion trends anti-science. Neoliberals are terrible and have nothing to do with the criticisms against religion being a conservative enabler. Maybe we can try to make the world more progressive without a myopic focus on income inequality, even if it is the biggest single issue. We can't abandon social equality purely in the name of economics, they go hand on hand.
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Mar 27, 2017 08:10
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RasperFat posted:You don't think energy group think tanks used religion as a tool to spread climate change denial? It's part and parcel to being and evangelical American Christian. 1. THey do, but they also enable secualr group that spread the gospel of Ayn Rand, which is not about prayer to God, or Gods. 2. So because some idiots screama bout Sola Scriptora that means we need to wipe out religion. 3. Well if you're going to bring up the destruction of education and blame it on religion when jsut as much has to do with neoliberals believing students need skin in the game, and wnat to destroy teachers unions I think you should be called out. 4. When social equality means screaming at people for praying that's not an "equality" I can in anyway support.
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Mar 27, 2017 08:37
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Crowsbeak posted:1. THey do, but they also enable secualr group that spread the gospel of Ayn Rand, which is not about prayer to God, or Gods. 1. Of course they do but it's nowhere near as effective. Prosperity gospel is believed by 25% of the poor in America and that's a serious impediment to implementing leftist economic agenda. 2. I never said we need to wipe out all religion just that in the public sphere it shouldn't be revered and should be criticized. 3. Religion is not the source of all bad things and not all bad things come out of religion. We can call out religious nonsense while also calling out neoliberal shills. They are not mutually exclusive. 4. When did I ever advocate for anything like that? It's a private issue and it's crazy aggressive to scream at people. I never said any course of action should involve aggressively interfering with people. Are you actually making a good faith argument that I ever said we should run into churches and yell that they are all deluded fools, or blare a megaphone during a prayer vigil or when some random person is clasping their hands in prayer or whatever in a public place? It's about public policy, education, and media. We need to not allow religious institutions to directly influence politics, better education for everybody, and more people speaking up for how ridiculous religious thinking is and news organizations not allowing religious slants or bringing in religious figures as experts on anything other than their religion. None of these things clash with a leftist philosophy, and present a peaceful way to make society better without ever trampling on people's rights or dignity like you keep suggesting I want to do.
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Mar 27, 2017 10:37
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RasperFat posted:1. Of course they do but it's nowhere near as effective. Prosperity gospel is believed by 25% of the poor in America and that's a serious impediment to implementing leftist economic agenda. 1. Prove that many beleive the prosperity gospel. 2. It is criticized. Also its hardly revered. Well except for the Pope. 3. Well don'tbe blaming it for stuff that are caused by the neoliberals. 4. Also people are free to speak about how they think religion is ridiculous they've been doing that alot lately. Interestingly quite a few of them also use such ideas to push really horrible stuff like imperialism and neoliberalism. All through rational means this time of course. Sorry if I am skeptical of you, but the number of athiests I have encountered who have been devotees of Hitchens, Harris, and Maher makes me wary.
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Mar 27, 2017 10:46
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TomViolence posted:And yet you keep posting with your snide bullshit, I wonder if that might be what killed the productive conversation. As you can see from the slapfight that just occurred, no, this horse was long dead before I got my beatings in on it.
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Mar 27, 2017 13:43
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RasperFat posted:it definitely seems like there is an extremely high correlation between countries being less religious and leaning much father left. Maybe, for some meanings of 'left', at any rate. quote:But it does definitely seem like decreasing religiosity leads to more leftism. No. There is nothing in your post that implies causation. I am sure you know that correlation doesn't.
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Mar 27, 2017 14:09
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im actually more struck by the corellation between conservatism and proximity to the equator. is it possible that heat suppresses the leftist part of the brain...?
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Mar 27, 2017 14:25
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Considering Latin America I would have to assume it would be proximity to some ancient evil buried under the black sea.
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Mar 27, 2017 15:57
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Crowsbeak posted:1. Prove that many beleive the prosperity gospel. 1. I already covered that earlier in thread, but here's a link. It's actually 28%, I was rounding down. 2. This is not really true. Here is how NYT covers religion, not much different than any other major publication. "What a Buddhist Monk Taught Xi Jinping", "Reza Aslan Thinks TV Can End Bigotry", "understanding what bonds is together as humans is not the job of science", "What Jesus Can Teach Today's Muslims". Do you really not see the reverence religion is given by the tone of these articles? 3. Again, not mutually exclusive and the neoliberals aren't the sole impetus behind lovely education. 4. Better media representation is exactly what I'm saying. Asshats like Hitchens and Dawkins somehow became the face for atheism, instead of non bigoted people like Sagan and PZ Meyers. Atheist characters on TV and movies are usually depicted as detached nerds that have weak social skills. Things are getting better, but we aren't there yet. Don't forget we are only a couple decades out from when it became publicly acceptable to be a nonbeliever. Oh dear me posted:Maybe, for some meanings of 'left', at any rate. For the definition of "left" where people should have equality in social status snd economic justice, then yes. I'm not saying that religion is the sole cause of these problems, but that it hurts more than it helps. When the entire population of a region is highly religious, it is almost always oppressive. Did you seriously look at all the 95+% countries and not see an alarming trend? Secularism appears to be a catalyst for progressivism, and religion appears to be a catalyst for conservatism. That doesn't mean when someone converts they immediately become more Nazi-esque or when deconverting they start become champions of socialism. It means that having high religiosity in a population makes it more reactive and tradition bound, and is therefore something that we should try to change.
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Mar 27, 2017 20:15
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Who What Now posted:There hasn't been a real discussion ITT for the last 33 pages. Want a real discussion? Yes the left is hostile to religion, in America especially so. The reason is that the right co-opted religion, and the left didn't even put up a fight. They said "lol most of us hate religion, that ain't worth fighting for." Despite this most major religions fall more in line with leftist thinking that right wing thinking.
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Mar 27, 2017 20:35
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Want a real discussion? Maybe the left was absolutely disgusted with the idea that the right could match what the left actually does by flaunting a book and calling it a day
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Mar 27, 2017 20:41
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Despite this most major religions fall more in line with leftist thinking that right wing thinking. On the other hand, recorded history.
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Mar 27, 2017 20:54
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:The reason is that the right co-opted religion, and the left didn't even put up a fight. They said "lol most of us hate religion, that ain't worth fighting for." If it can be co-opted by the right it's not a resilient or useful moral guide.
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Mar 27, 2017 21:29
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Want a real discussion? How does that work with the developmental history of religions in the United States? Religious people were the more conservative ones starting from the Puritans. Sure there are some nice groups like the Quakers we like to highlight historically, but overall the early Protestant and Catholics that made up America leaned conservative pretty hard. The liberal foundational idea of a secular government came mostly from Deists, who are closer to agnostic/atheist than Christians. The reason the right "co-opted" religion is because religion has always been in bed with the right wing. It's a nice relationship that's been going on for millennia.
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Mar 27, 2017 21:44
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Separation of church and state meant that were would be no reconciliation between science and religion. It's in our constitution to have freedom of religion something that the extreme left wants to warp into a destruction of family values. If you want to have science and religion check out Christian science or star trek. To a religious person science might just come off as Star Trek-like teknobabble. To the scientific mind religion mind just sound like the metaphor or analogy of an episode of Star Trek they saw one time. The left is hostile towards religion because while it promotes it's consideration as an object of freedom it is abdicated in the sense that not all religions or ethnic-religious groups get along. The left doesn't want you to have freedom of religion they want you to have freedom to destroy the values that our constitution is based on. As backwards as the right is this makes the left sound a little sillier and out of touch. Besides the only culture that matters is black culture. The right promotes religious indoctrination (for example the popularity behind Putin's backing of the Catholic church) because religious right wing nut jobs are usually the middle class paying taxes and feeding the homeless out of pocket. No left wing nut job with a $100,000 Prius is going to stop on the side of the rode to give the homeless a dollar so he can get a hamburger or a bottle of alcohol or whatever. Leave that to the people doing the actual work in American society. Nothing is asked of the liberals because they get to the top quick and in their underhanded ways pretend to protect those who are in need of social security and whatnot. However if a conservative is trying to deny people of social security income it is only because they are trying to further progress the system to give better help to those who are in need. The right wing is truly progressive while the left is a degenerate cancer that masquerades itself as santa's little helper while standing idly by only to cash in on the next bill that gives them a tax break or places them in a larger house with more expensive cars and the poor wandering aimlessly on the street. That's part of the reason why the left wants to take away our guns. When the left is done taking away our rights and has broken the camel's back on the final chip cracked away at our constitution who's going to protect them from those left behind? Will it be those who are left only with their religions and and their armaments to take back what is theirs? Think about it.
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Mar 27, 2017 21:53
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Bates posted:If it can be co-opted by the right it's not a resilient or useful moral guide. Lol everything can be co-opted by the right. Even leftism.
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Mar 27, 2017 22:11
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Lol everything can be co-opted by the right. Even leftism. Legit. Just look at the democrats (who were never left wing to begin with and basically just took to wearing their skin) or any european labour party (who might have been centre-left once but embraced neoliberalim and underwent a slow rot).
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Mar 27, 2017 22:18
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Shbobdb posted:There is a finesse to my metaphor, though. "Actualization" is a God of the modern secularist, what Max Stirner would call a "spook." When Maslow elucidated on the idea, it wasn't as though he were coming up with empirical tests to determine who was "actualized" and who was not. The self-actualized man of Maslow, like Einstein or Thoreau, is more a saint of the naturalist culture than a valid psychological category.
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Mar 27, 2017 22:18
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:everything can be co-opted Yep; no aspect of human affairs is immune, not one.
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Mar 27, 2017 22:24
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RasperFat posted:I'm not saying that religion is the sole cause of these problems, but that it hurts more than it helps. When the entire population of a region is highly religious, it is almost always oppressive. Did you seriously look at all the 95+% countries and not see an alarming trend? No. Correlation does not imply causation, and you cannot make it imply causation by saying you're sure there are other causes as well, or calling it a catalyst instead. You have provided no evidence at all that religion increases conservatism, rather than (for example) the other way round, or them both being caused by something else. It's surely not even difficult to imagine why people who live in reactionary hellholes might find comfort in religion, nor that it might be easier to break away from ancestral beliefs if you already live in a place with economic security and a decent education.
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Mar 27, 2017 22:25
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Nodbarnacle posted:Separation of church and state meant that were would be no reconciliation between science and religion. It's in our constitution to have freedom of religion something that the extreme left wants to warp into a destruction of family values. If you want to have science and religion check out Christian science or star trek. To a religious person science might just come off as Star Trek-like teknobabble. To the scientific mind religion mind just sound like the metaphor or analogy of an episode of Star Trek they saw one time. The left is hostile towards religion because while it promotes it's consideration as an object of freedom it is abdicated in the sense that not all religions or ethnic-religious groups get along. The left doesn't want you to have freedom of religion they want you to have freedom to destroy the values that our constitution is based on. As backwards as the right is this makes the left sound a little sillier and out of touch. Besides the only culture that matters is black culture. The right promotes religious indoctrination (for example the popularity behind Putin's backing of the Catholic church) because religious right wing nut jobs are usually the middle class paying taxes and feeding the homeless out of pocket. No left wing nut job with a $100,000 Prius is going to stop on the side of the rode to give the homeless a dollar so he can get a hamburger or a bottle of alcohol or whatever. Leave that to the people doing the actual work in American society. Nothing is asked of the liberals because they get to the top quick and in their underhanded ways pretend to protect those who are in need of social security and whatnot. However if a conservative is trying to deny people of social security income it is only because they are trying to further progress the system to give better help to those who are in need. The right wing is truly progressive while the left is a degenerate cancer that masquerades itself as santa's little helper while standing idly by only to cash in on the next bill that gives them a tax break or places them in a larger house with more expensive cars and the poor wandering aimlessly on the street. That's part of the reason why the left wants to take away our guns. When the left is done taking away our rights and has broken the camel's back on the final chip cracked away at our constitution who's going to protect them from those left behind? LMBO if you arually believe these words that you wrote
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Mar 27, 2017 22:28
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CountFosco posted:"Actualization" is a God of the modern secularist, what Max Stirner would call a "spook." When Maslow elucidated on the idea, it wasn't as though he were coming up with empirical tests to determine who was "actualized" and who was not. The self-actualized man of Maslow, like Einstein or Thoreau, is more a saint of the naturalist culture than a valid psychological category. Everything is god, except of course, when you look at the actual beliefs and institutions. You have a [concept of value]! That [conception of value] is a god to you! Who is the real theist now?  Nonsense objections like that are rightly laughed out of the room.
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Mar 27, 2017 23:01
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Oh dear me posted:No. Correlation does not imply causation, and you cannot make it imply causation by saying you're sure there are other causes as well, or calling it a catalyst instead. I have provided extensive evidence that religiosity correlates strongly with conservatism, and laid out the mechanisms by which religion causes more conservatism. Religion fosters appeals to authority, appeals to tradition, the just world fallacy, reactionism, and a multitude of philosophical, moral, and reasoning problems. But since you insist on even more evidence, Here's an academic study Key take away: religious participation increases economic conservatism among the poor. (Even if it decreases with the rich). Also that it decreases with societal development in general. Here's more hard data directly linking increased religiosity to increased conservatism Key take away: As American states become more religious, they become more conservative. You can try to pussyfoot around the facts, but both historically and in modern times religions help push conservatism.
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Mar 27, 2017 23:38
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RasperFat posted:1. I already covered that earlier in thread, but here's a link. It's actually 28%, I was rounding down. A quarter agree god can reward good deeds that doesn't mean they're all literal prosperity gospel believers. 2. So now the fact that they don't bar stories about certain groups that are religous that is showing reverence for religion. 3. They're the main group. 4. I wonder what made anyone think that. TO the rest, correlation is not causation. Sorry. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Mar 28, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 23:43
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To reframe: religion is inherently reactionary. There is a distribution (not a normal one though), so you can find odd outliers of truly progressive religious people.  Let's assume America is as red-shifted as pundits claim. Black represents the average American distribution. If orange=Republican and blue=Democrat then yellow is the religious voter -- and it's curve is distorted by religious minority voters. White religious voters are the light blue line that only have area under the furthest right portion and keeps approaching the most conservative point possible. Economic conservatives are the red line running right. Note: Seriously colorblind so feel free to correct me on colors.
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Mar 27, 2017 23:50
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RasperFat posted:Here's an academic study Thank you, this is something - though the article is about participation rather than belief, and specifically argues for a more complicated and two-way story of causation than the one you were offering. For what it's worth I don't have any problem imagining that religion some times, in some circumstances, increases conservatism. The fact that it sometimes has the opposite effect ought to make us wary of missionary atheism, though, even if one thought missionary atheism would succeed in spreading atheism rather than a dislike of atheists. The other article again only shows correlations, which I didn't dispute.
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Mar 28, 2017 00:21
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Crowsbeak posted:A quarter agree god can reward good deeds that doesn't mean they're all literal prosperity gospel believers. No, a quarter believe God gives monetary reward for good deeds. It's insidious and is something far more widespread than we like to admit. It's giving a critical weight behind religious perspectives and approaches that is undeserving. Secular state solutions are orders of magnitude more effective than religious ones, but they run articles like these pretending these faiths can effectively solve anything. Neoliberals are not a good friend to education, but don't pretend they are the "main group" making it worse. Full on conservatism and libertarianism is anti-intellectual and actively trying to tear down education on a national level. You think Hillary's Secretary of Education would be worse than Betsy Devos or would be trying to cut education as much as Trump? You keep repeating "correlation is not causation" like a mantra, but it doesn't work that way. When you see such a strong correlation, you investigate to see if there is causation. And to no surprise there are many ways that religions directly increase conservatism including messaging, political activism, and psychological/philosophical influence. In aggregate, religion trends heavily conservative. From this we can surmise that religion does have a causative role in increasing conservatism. This doesn't mean every iteration of religion is conservative or bad, but that collectively it has a net negative influence. It is incredibly easily corrupted because demagogues have perceived divine influence, making it a shaky potential ally at best. Given all this information, religion presents, and will always present, more barriers to leftism than it can help with. Increasing secularization acts as a catalyst for leftism, and should be encouraged alongside the intertwined and important fights for social and economic equality.
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Mar 28, 2017 00:52
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Oh dear me posted:Thank you, this is something - though the article is about participation rather than belief, and specifically argues for a more complicated and two-way story of causation than the one you were offering. The problem is this is a nebulous "truth in the middle" approach that religion can sometimes be bad and sometimes be good so we can't really make any judgements. If you take a critical look at the history of religion and politics for the last 1,000 years, it's incredibly difficult say that religion lands somewhere in the middle on conservatism and progressivism. In fact it's especially damning that "leftist" religions mostly formed out of more extreme conservative religions in the first place, and largely adopted more secular reasoning and practices. Framing it as "missionary atheism" isn't the approach I suggested. Firmer separation of religion and politics, better education, and more responsible media is how we can make these changes without being assholes to people.
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Mar 28, 2017 01:04
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RasperFat posted:No, a quarter believe God gives monetary reward for good deeds. It's insidious and is something far more widespread than we like to admit. 1. Yeah you're putting words into the responders mouths there. 2. Yeah this is litterally. "I don't want magazines reporting on people having good experiences through religion. Do you want them to if their publishing such a story have someone then say. OH AND RELIGION MADE MY LIFE BAD! 3.Yeah neoliberalism and libertarianism are very much intertwined. 4. Yeah considering the secularization you want is the kind that lead to Syria or Turkey. I can do without that. Also you're not explaining how religion is the cause rather then abject loving poverty. nor could you ever ignore the fact that sevral of the American states with low religiosity are the Koch bros laboratories. ALso if you're wondering why Athiests get portrayed badly. Maybe consider that you get mad at the NYT for publishing an article about Budhist monks. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Mar 28, 2017 |
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Mar 28, 2017 01:54
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Oh dear me posted:Thank you, this is something - though the article is about participation rather than belief, and specifically argues for a more complicated and two-way story of causation than the one you were offering. Belief is meaningless. No one cares what you believe. People care about what you *do*. Participation is a thing that you *do* which makes it a good measure for religiosity. Belief is meaningless.
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Mar 28, 2017 01:57
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