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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:So I've been fighting the superboss on hard to get its joke ending... and now that I've gotten it I think I will tone it down to normal when I try to actually beat it. All the one hit kill stuff made it a somewhat messy experience at times. A reskin of the shittiest boss in the game isn't really ever gonna be fun, especially when it's max level. That said, it's still better than the original version of that fight.
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Mar 27, 2017 17:14
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Eopia posted:Please explain further, I don't remember any of the other infected androids having anything like that, although the game does note that it removes their limiters so that even observation units can fight on the level of dedicated combat units. It happens in the stage play to Lily and is described as the power the strongest machines have (in the game it's just Adam and Eve). Nobody else in the actual game seems to get the power though other than 9S for the ending
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Mar 27, 2017 17:15
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Gravity control is also a pod power, so make of that how you will.....
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Mar 27, 2017 17:17
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THe logic virus is, IMO, the most awkward part of the story.
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Mar 27, 2017 17:21
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Nuebot posted:I somehow only have 98% tutorials. What could I have missed? Have you died while offline? There's a separate tutorial for that.
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Mar 27, 2017 17:24
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Sorry, i wasn't actually disputing the fact that 2B takes out 9S repeatedly off screen, and i've seen the mentioned references (well, the in-game ones at least), i was more asking if there's an actual explanation of why and when specifically because the assumed motives (beyond the trivial "Commander pushed the button") behind the setup makes little sense to me. Probably should've specified that better. On second thought The E-type sidequest - where it's immediately obvious who the killer was before they send you on the obligatory treasure hunt - actually gives a great example of the execution taking a tremendously heavy mental toll on the android to the point of trauma induced Josuke Higashikata posted:he's always the same with her, even though he knows she's an E type.
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Mar 27, 2017 17:27
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RoadCrewWorker posted:Wait, what, then why is A2 revealing it to him in the C ending even a thing? She's revealing things to us as the player what she learns "offscreen" in the library. "But you already knew that, didn't you?"
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Mar 27, 2017 17:47
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2 saddest moments for me in the game 1. Hearing Operator 6O deteriorate on the bunker, that hit me harder than anything in the game. I had to pause and collect myself after that. 2. Realizing after I finished the game that 9S keeps getting reset completely and meeting 2B, falling in love with her I can only assume every time, only to be killed by her, who loves him back. Imagine her shoes, she loves him and every time they meet he starts to fall for her too, only to have to die. Good game, yep mhm good game 
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Mar 27, 2017 17:49
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:"But you already knew that, didn't you?" RoadCrewWorker fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 17:52
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RoadCrewWorker posted:Sorry, i wasn't actually disputing the fact that 2B takes out 9S repeatedly off screen, and i've seen the mentioned references (well, the in-game ones at least), i was more asking if there's an actual explanation of why and when specifically because the assumed motives (beyond the trivial "Commander pushed the button") behind the setup makes little sense to me. Probably should've specified that better. It's because Scanner types are designed to be inquisitive and are equipped with a powerful hacking suite. Remember, he hacked into the Bunker's servers with little difficulty. The qualities that make them useful for acquiring data on the enemy also makes them dangerous because they can also find out YoRHa's secrets. As for your third question, I think it's just A2 trying to do defuse the situation. She doesn't really want to fight him and was trying to come up with a reason for why he shouldn't avenge 2B. Of course, that's not exactly the best point to bring up, and 2B asking to be mercy killed would've been better, but at that point I don't think 9S would've backed down for any reason short of 2B reviving miraculously out of nowhere.
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Mar 27, 2017 17:52
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Nazzadan posted:2 saddest moments for me in the game Finding the sisters in Pascal's camp was probably the most immediately visceral/unexpected gut-kick (since the factory bit is kind of telegraphed in content if not methodology). The only thing that would have added to it would be if Pascal had the ribbons in her inventory as another "I don't know what these are here for, but they're probably trash" item. A lot of the game's mechanics make it hard to take any sort of "death" at face value though. "You'll lose the you that exists right now!" had me like "Bitch he was just in the goddamn space station he has a backup from like 10 minutes ago, hurry up and kill him and fedex overnight his replacement christ"
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Mar 27, 2017 17:58
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Argas posted:As for your third question, I think it's just A2 trying to do defuse the situation. She doesn't really want to fight him and was trying to come up with a reason for why he shouldn't avenge 2B. Of course, that's not exactly the best point to bring up, and 2B asking to be mercy killed would've been better, but at that point I don't think 9S would've backed down for any reason short of 2B reviving miraculously out of nowhere. To be perfectly honest the instant 9S fights and kills a room full of 2Bs I was fully expecting a situation where 2B was actually resurrected from memory remnants and immediately getting Evangelioned by a literally-insane One of the giant Emil heads from the desert, inexplicably split in half, watches on from the background, surrounded by crucified androids from the songstress Ursine Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 18:02
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:To be perfectly honest the instant 9S fights and kills a room full of 2Bs I was fully expecting a situation where 2B was actually resurrected from memory remnants and immediately getting Evangelioned by a literally-insane Yeah I thought they would go this direction too. I'm glad they didn't, because then my first saddest moment would be second.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:03
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I would've liked for them to go more into the SOMA-esque "putting your memories into another body doesn't actually make that body you" thing
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Mar 27, 2017 18:03
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:A lot of the game's mechanics make it hard to take any sort of "death" at face value though. "You'll lose the you that exists right now!" had me like "Bitch he was just in the goddamn space station he has a backup from like 10 minutes ago, hurry up and kill him and fedex overnight his replacement christ" Really, it isn't that weird of a thing to get upset over. That 9s will be dead forever, and just because an identical one takes its place doesn't make that less true.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:06
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Nina posted:I would've liked for them to go more into the SOMA-esque "putting your memories into another body doesn't actually make that body you" thing i think the remoes and juliets play went into that more than enough.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:07
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Nina posted:I would've liked for them to go more into the SOMA-esque "putting your memories into another body doesn't actually make that body you" thing The emphasis on how "you" follow the 2B/9S that has the most recent set of memories in playthroughs A and B, at least regardless of the destruction of your physical body, plus all of the Emil questing that basically re-emphasizes the point that memories are what makes someone "that person" ("I kept making copies of myself but as time went on, my memories faded and I stopped being "me"", or something along those lines during his Lunar Tears monologue), plus Pascal pre/post memory wipe would make it really hard to shoehorn a late counterperspective of "lol not really", imo.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:10
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:A lot of the game's mechanics make it hard to take any sort of "death" at face value though. "You'll lose the you that exists right now!" had me like "Bitch he was just in the goddamn space station he has a backup from like 10 minutes ago, hurry up and kill him and fedex overnight his replacement christ" I felt like this at ending A, but by ending C I felt like I had a little different perspective. I feel like all the fragility and impermanence of life that we see, combined with copies and backups and all the kind of thing really pushes the value of who people are in the present moment. Like, the static files of 9S's backup aren't 9S. It's not a coincidence that Sartre is in the game. Sartre believed in "I act, therefor I am" (or "I choose, therefore I am"). 9S becomes through his actions when he is alive. The 9S that's backed up on the server isn't the 9S that risked his life for 2B in the fight. 2B has know a lot of 9Ses, and in some sense they have been different people. edit: ^ It can be both. Memories can define a person. But when 9S is going to die at the end of Route A, his memories since his last backup aren't going to be backed up. So even though a 9S is still going to be alive, the one that's right here is still dying. period. (And then he didn't) Snak fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 18:10
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Saagonsa posted:Really, it isn't that weird of a thing to get upset over. That 9s will be dead forever, and just because an identical one takes its place doesn't make that less true. There's a difference between "an identical one takes its place but has no memory of your recent interactions" and "your loved one dies and is resurrected, and the only cost is losing the memory of a particularly traumatic boss fight" it makes more sense with the context of the C playthrough, admittedly, but at the time it just struck me as "is this really what you're going to get upset over? really?" e: quote:But when 9S is going to die at the end of Route A, his memories since his last backup aren't going to be backed up. So even though a 9S is still going to be alive, the one that's right here is still dying. period. (And then he didn't) Yeah, but again, at the time, since you don't find that out until route B Ursine Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 18:13
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Argas posted:would've backed down for any reason short of 2B reviving miraculously out of nowhere. Sort of related, i'm a little surprised by how little focus is given to the fact that these characters trivially upload and copy their consciousness around dozens of times, considering all the insane implications of "continuity" or potential for "valid" duplicates. I was constantly half expecting the protagonists to run into other versions of themselves who were stuck in the "teleporters" or left behind while hacking/saving - the fact that you can revive your previous death's body is kind of hinting at that and super messed up if you actually think about it. Or really whatever insanely messy situations you could easily come up with when your characters are a version control system tree with rollbacks and partial commits etc instead of a linear continuity. At least until the Bunker blows up. But i guess Yoko Taro was probably smarter to not add that additional layer of mindfuckery. ninja: woops, thread moves fast and this response missed the previous half dozen posts. woops RoadCrewWorker fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 18:14
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Snak posted:I felt like this at ending A, but by ending C I felt like I had a little different perspective. I feel like all the fragility and impermanence of life that we see, combined with copies and backups and all the kind of thing really pushes the value of who people are in the present moment. Like, the static files of 9S's backup aren't 9S. It's not a coincidence that Sartre is in the game. Sartre believed in "I act, therefor I am" (or "I choose, therefore I am"). 9S becomes through his actions when he is alive. The 9S that's backed up on the server isn't the 9S that risked his life for 2B in the fight. 2B has know a lot of 9Ses, and in some sense they have been different people. Pascal also makes the point that the core of a machine contains their true self and that's something that can't be recovered when destroyed. That even through all these networked bodies sharing memories recovering a lost life is impossible. That if anything confirms all these androids coming back from death are just identical replicas, those android consciousnesses that belonged to all the 2Bs and 9Ss simply died and an identical replica popped up
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Mar 27, 2017 18:16
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RoadCrewWorker posted:Considering how much 2B-model stabbing and murdering he had gone through at that point i doubt it would've mattered. Yeah, I assumed when A2 was introduced, that she actually was an older instance of 2B who found out something she wasn't supposed to and they lost control of. I figured that the 2B we were playing was just a fresh one that they popped out of a transported with a system restore point. Now, the reality wasn't too far off, but still. edit: Nina posted:Pascal also makes the point that the core of a machine contains their true self and that's something that can't be recovered when destroyed. That even through all these networked bodies sharing memories recovering a lost life is impossible. That if anything confirms all these androids coming back from death are just identical replicas, those android consciousnesses that belonged to all the 2Bs and 9Ss simply died and an identical replica popped up I think this becomes a philosophical, rather than technically question, to which I will say "I believe that Pascal is wrong, and that 'identical duplicates' are in fact the same person" I've gotten into this argument a lot with regards to the "transporter from star trek actually kills you and makes a duplicate" poo poo that comes up everytime someone who's really concerned with an intangible unique identity gets ahold of scifi. I would go so far as to say that what Pascal says reflects his beliefs, but is not philosophically accurate, and that if you put the memories of a dead machine (that were copied at the moment of death) into a new machine with a different core, they would still be the same being. If they're not backed up at the moment of death, then you lose continuity, and they're the same being they were when the backup was made, but the being they are when they die is still irrevocably lost. Just like 9S would be. Which might be what Pascal is talking about. Snak fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 18:17
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RoadCrewWorker posted:Considering how much 2B-model stabbing and murdering he had gone through at that point i doubt it would've mattered. The closest you get is retrieving your weapon off your tutorial corpse in playthrough A but yeah I'm kind of surprised the closest they ever get to that is the 2Bs fight in the tower, with a side nod towards Emil. But again, given the emphasis this game has on "your memories at this exact point in time is what makes you you" it probably would have compromised the message somewhat.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:18
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One argument that the Yorha project is actually cyclical comes from the Emil Head weapon story: http://nierautomata.wiki.fextralife.com/Emil+Heads You can read this a number of ways. Maybe it suggests even ending E isn't happy and Emil is back in time from that. Another possibility though is that the current date is not actually 11945 but actually 12423, that the Yorha project has been through phases of being created and destroyed, with 2B reincarnated each time. This might also account for the other Yorha related weapon stories, which might be difficult to fit into the story if the whole Yorha offensive is as recent as it seems.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:20
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The whole story and it's themes contain so many unclear and/or subjective elements I just end up going back to just appreciating it for being a game where I can be a cool robot lady and there are gay space girls and Sephiroth is there and the real villain is Jean-Paul Sartre
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Mar 27, 2017 18:25
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Nina posted:Pascal also makes the point that the core of a machine contains their true self and that's something that can't be recovered when destroyed. That even through all these networked bodies sharing memories recovering a lost life is impossible. That if anything confirms all these androids coming back from death are just identical replicas, those android consciousnesses that belonged to all the 2Bs and 9Ss simply died and an identical replica popped up I actually took away the opposite-- the impression I got from that was As long as you've got your "core" copied away somewhere safe then you can just toss it into a new body if your old self gets destroyed and hey presto, you're back, sans experiences between your last copy and "death". This idea was reinforced by the fact that YoRHa units are essentially machine-core based, implying the only thing preventing a "Bunker" for the machines is the inclination/infrastructure (and since the ones that are networked have that by default they don't even need that)
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Mar 27, 2017 18:27
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Nina posted:The whole story and it's themes contain so many unclear and/or subjective elements I just end up going back to just appreciating it for being a game where I can be a cool robot lady and there are gay space girls and Sephiroth is there and the real villain is Jean-Paul Sartre I think it's really funny that the Jean-Paul character takes no actions in the game and then effectively ceases to exist. I'm actually taking a course on religion and mythology in science fiction right now, and am literally doing reading and writing assignments on Sartre and science fiction. So as that progresses, I'll probably make more effort posts. I still only have like 60% of archives unlocked, though, so, I've got more lore to digest... edit: ^I think the core is hardware that can't be copied. Like you can't digitally copy a core because it's a physical thing.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:28
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Nina posted:The whole story and it's themes contain so many unclear and/or subjective elements I just end up going back to just appreciating it for being a game where I can be a cool robot lady and there are gay space girls and Sephiroth is there and the real villain is Jean-Paul Sartre still needs a ranking system so i can get SSS though, and a 100 floor
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Mar 27, 2017 18:29
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Nina posted:The whole story and it's themes contain so many unclear and/or subjective elements I just end up going back to just appreciating it for being a game where I can be a cool robot lady and there are gay space girls and Sephiroth is there and the real villain is Jean-Paul Sartre Same, it's fun to think about the nuances of the story and interpret them our own ways but it is also fun to do this 
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Mar 27, 2017 18:29
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Also i wish they had actually copied the fashion souls aspect of those games and not just the corpse-run gimmick, but obviously modelling assets costs money
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Mar 27, 2017 18:31
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RoadCrewWorker posted:obviously same. though i wouldn't call this an "either, or" situation I want another 15 Nightmares like the first Nier but this time it's Platinum creating the surreal techno-remix hell combat gauntlet so it's actually cool.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:32
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I wish they had made retrieving corpses not take like 30 seconds and 4 button presses. That would have been nice. In soulsgames it doesn't interrupt gameplay at all. As much as I want to pray for all the fallen androids I find, it takes sooooooooo looooooooooong.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:32
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Nina posted:The whole story and it's themes contain so many unclear and/or subjective elements I just end up going back to just appreciating it for being a game where I can be a cool robot lady and there are gay space girls and Sephiroth is there and the real villain is Jean-Paul Sartre you can be a gay cool space girl robot lady so the separation here is superfluous, imho
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Mar 27, 2017 18:34
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I'm waiting for the CheatEngine table that lets me use self destruct as Eve
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Mar 27, 2017 18:35
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Snak posted:edit: ^I think the core is hardware that can't be copied. Like you can't digitally copy a core because it's a physical thing. The core itself, yeah, but it's not really explained if the Machine Core/Black Box is what stores the memory of the associated bot/droid and, if not, why they're so important to the "soul" of said bot/droid (or if they are for bots but not for droids?  )
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Mar 27, 2017 18:37
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Josuke Higashikata posted:you can be a gay cool space girl robot lady so the separation here is superfluous, imho 9S should be a girl
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Mar 27, 2017 18:38
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Nina posted:9S should be a girl It wouldn't be a Yoko Taro game without a sympathetic young boy to torture.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:39
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Snak posted:I felt like this at ending A, but by ending C I felt like I had a little different perspective. I feel like all the fragility and impermanence of life that we see, combined with copies and backups and all the kind of thing really pushes the value of who people are in the present moment. Like, the static files of 9S's backup aren't 9S. It's not a coincidence that Sartre is in the game. Sartre believed in "I act, therefor I am" (or "I choose, therefore I am"). 9S becomes through his actions when he is alive. The 9S that's backed up on the server isn't the 9S that risked his life for 2B in the fight. 2B has know a lot of 9Ses, and in some sense they have been different people. After Adam reveals 9S as a hostage or whatever and 2B gets really angry about it, he says "Come, 2B!" which has the obvious double entendre of goading her into battle, but also telling her to "come to be", or "come into existence". Adam attempted to become more alive, or perhaps more human, through a fight to the death with 2B. I think perhaps he was trying to do the same with 2B?
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Mar 27, 2017 18:44
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Oxxidation posted:It wouldn't be a Yoko Taro game without a sympathetic young boy to torture. I dunno I think it'd be cool variety for the local genocidal Caim successor to be a lady for once
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Mar 27, 2017 18:43
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Nina posted:I dunno I think it'd be cool variety for the local genocidal Caim successor to be a lady for once I dunno, I think Zero is sorta this, just less gung ho about the murder train on the whole
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Mar 27, 2017 18:46
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