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Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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33 | 6.38% |
| No |
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343 | 66.34% |
| Keith Ellison |
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54 | 10.44% |
| Pete Buttigieg |
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71 | 13.73% |
| Jehmu Green |
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16 | 3.09% |
| Total: | 416 votes | ||
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JeffersonClay posted:People who think racism is real and affects electoral outcomes are the real racists, they must be purged. please tell us how not racist you are mr. "dirty mexicans are going to take all the welfare and deporting refugees is actually cool and good"
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Mar 28, 2017 20:19
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Pedro De Heredia posted:The thing about pinning Clinton's defeat / Obama voters turning away on racism, is that it's basically a narrative of "bad people rejected the Democrats because the Democrats are just too good". It doesn't leave room for much of a solution, either - as I've said before, it's hard to make people not-racist, particularly in a four-year span of time. It is much easier, however, to show people who have voted for a racist, that voting for an anti-racist candidate who also cares about the prospects of Rust Belt communities, can be to their personal economic benefit.
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Mar 28, 2017 20:19
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JeffersonClay posted:I'm asking myself what did Obama do during his 2nd term that pissed off 25% of his white working class supporters and that Trump offered a credible enough alternative? Immigration-- DACA and DAPA-- is a strong contender. What makes you think Obama has anything to do with it? If they voted for Obama and not for Hillary, wouldn't that be a problem with Hillary, not Obama?
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Mar 28, 2017 20:19
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Kilroy posted:The thing is it was the establishment sycophants accusing the left of it, though. And now here we are. Of course they did ad still do because they're gong to try and triangulate the best position of racist policy and trying to be not "not racist." And when they keep losing they'll only compete for suburban "moderate" Republican voters more while treating everyone else as a loss cause and moot appealing to them because "they don't vote for us" Main Paineframe posted:What makes you think Obama has anything to do with it? If they voted for Obama and not for Hillary, wouldn't that be a problem with Hillary, not Obama? Abuela is perfect and cannot fail, only be failed. The Clinton Cultists are incapable of admitting that she had flaws KomradeX fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Mar 28, 2017 |
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Mar 28, 2017 20:21
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Main Paineframe posted:What makes you think Obama has anything to do with it? If they voted for Obama and not for Hillary, wouldn't that be a problem with Hillary, not Obama? Particularly given Obama's enduring popularity over the past year.
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Mar 28, 2017 20:22
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Yeah! And when did you stop beating your wife anyway? If he's got an actual solution then he's free to say it. Hillaries never do though, cause the handwringing about racism is just an easy way to excuse Hillary's incompetence. quote:And then they turned around and voted for Donald Trump. You really think if Hillary had been 100% for single payer those people would've voted for her instead? Yes. Trump actually promised them healthcare. Hillary promised to put them out of work and not much else. It doesn't take a genius to realize desperate people will go for false hope over certain despair.
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Mar 28, 2017 20:26
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Obama's popularity numbers should probably be treated with some skepticism. Their meaning, at least. He had middling approval ratings for a big chunk of his presidency, he won his reelection with a smaller advantage than his election, the party took a lot of hits, he was unable to get his successor elected, and the opposition party is in control of the entire government.
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Mar 28, 2017 20:36
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Turns out telling people what they want to hear works pretty well even if it's pretty clear to a lot of people that you're full of poo poo. It's better anyway than informing people that hope is lost because entropy is irreversible and God has abandoned us. Of course what's even better is talking honestly about why poo poo is hosed, what you're going to do to unfuck the poo poo, and then when you're elected to office doing everything you can, and maybe trying to do some more things that you can't and then failing here and there, to unfuck all the poo poo. Hell I don't know though, maybe prosecuting toddlers for overstaying their visas and throwing all of BLM in jail is the right move after all. We can't all be Serious Thinkers and Perfect Triangulaters like JeffersonClay - we can only see a handful of the chess pieces at any given time.
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Mar 28, 2017 20:42
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DeadlyMuffin posted:You really think if Hillary had been 100% for single payer those people would've voted for her instead?. Unequivocally yes.
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Mar 28, 2017 20:41
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Pedro De Heredia posted:The thing about pinning Clinton's defeat / Obama voters turning away on racism, is that it's basically a narrative of "bad people rejected the Democrats because the Democrats are just too good". I get staying home because you're disillusioned with Democrats; I don't get voting Republican unless you're okay with overt racism Condiv posted:JC and crew don't admit such a phenomena exists. The idea that poverty and despair feeds racism, not to mention all kinds of other antisocial behavior is lost on them. That's why they think that racial and economic justice aren't intertwined. the whole "poverty and despair necessarily breeds reactionary politics" theory is pretty thoroughly disproven by the existence of black people imho
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Mar 28, 2017 20:50
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The key part of arguing that racism is irrelevant, or that it's only a posture people take up when they're poor, is that it allows people to pretend to care about other issues while still trumpeting the need for a Herrenvolk democracy rooted in the belief that the rootless nomadic coastals are the problem. That is, if bigotry is sincere among the working classes, then to be a populist is to necessarily be on board with racism, sexism, and homophobia.
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Mar 28, 2017 20:51
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Brainiac Five posted:The key part of arguing that racism is irrelevant, or that it's only a posture people take up when they're poor, is that it allows people to pretend to care about other issues while still trumpeting the need for a Herrenvolk democracy rooted in the belief that the rootless nomadic coastals are the problem. That is, if bigotry is sincere among the working classes, then to be a populist is to necessarily be on board with racism, sexism, and homophobia. ignoring poverty like you guys do directly leads to the empowerment of racists. not everyone who understands intersectionality is a national socialist lol
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Mar 28, 2017 20:57
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Brainiac Five posted:The key part of arguing that racism is irrelevant, or that it's only a posture people take up when they're poor, is that it allows people to pretend to care about other issues while still trumpeting the need for a Herrenvolk democracy rooted in the belief that the rootless nomadic coastals are the problem. That is, if bigotry is sincere among the working classes, then to be a populist is to necessarily be on board with racism, sexism, and homophobia. Can you give me one of your red titles plz
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Mar 28, 2017 20:58
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:the whole "poverty and despair necessarily breeds reactionary politics" theory is pretty thoroughly disproven by the existence of black people imho in what way? do you think racism doesn't exist in the black community?
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Mar 28, 2017 21:00
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Condiv posted:in what way? do you think racism doesn't exist in the black community? Black nationalism isn't white nationalism for black people
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Mar 28, 2017 21:02
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Black nationalism isn't white nationalism for black people duh. answer the question.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:03
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I get staying home because you're disillusioned with Democrats; I don't get voting Republican unless you're okay with overt racism Support or opposition for things like overt racism aren't a simple binary, though; one can not particularly like Trump's overt racism, but find his economic promises to be more important. One can assume that Trump's just talking big, to attract genuinely racist voters. One can simply be politically ignorant and only hear the good things about Trump's rhetoric. I think a lot of Obama '08/'12 supporters who defected fall under at least one of these crude categories. quote:the whole "poverty and despair necessarily breeds reactionary politics" theory is pretty thoroughly disproven by the existence of black people imho The problem with that reading is, reactionary politics necessarily comes from a place of privilege, ie: a perception that a societal advantage that has been reserved for their group, is now being either taken away from them or extended to other groups. Black American have historically been pretty drat underprivileged. What would be in it for them to support a white fiscally conservative Republican, given that said Republican would invariably be acting to protect white privilege? e: On the other hand, black people (and other minority groups) are just as capable as any other group of taking reactionary stances in complex intersectional situations. Homophobia and transphobia are as prevalent in the cisgender hetero black community as any other demographic, for example. Majorian fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Mar 28, 2017 |
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Mar 28, 2017 21:09
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JeffersonClay posted:People who think racism is real and affects electoral outcomes are the real racists, they must be purged. Weren't you saying that you love deporting children who are refugees?
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Mar 28, 2017 21:09
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I get staying home because you're disillusioned with Democrats; I don't get voting Republican unless you're okay with overt racism The definition of "overt racism" is somewhat subjective, though. There's a fair number of people out there who would say that Trump wasn't racist, and that the real racists were the Dems and the media for implying that all Hispanic-Americans were pro-illegal-immigration. There's a wide cultural agreement that "racism is bad", but it was heavily co-opted by racists, who survived that cultural shift by promoting alternative definitions of "racism" that took root right into the shift against racism.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:14
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Fiction posted:ignoring poverty like you guys do directly leads to the empowerment of racists. not everyone who understands intersectionality is a national socialist lol Precisely this.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:16
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Obama's popularity numbers should probably be treated with some skepticism. Their meaning, at least. His middling approval ratings for a big chunk of his presidency weren't anything out of the ordinary for a two-term president, especially when partisanship is as extreme as it currently is in the U.S. Getting Clinton elected was, I think you'll agree, more Clinton's responsibility than his, and let's face the facts, the Democratic Party made a lot of really dumb mistakes that were entirely independent of Obama's leadership. (see: Lincoln, Blanche; Lieberman, Joe; Wasserman-Schultz, Debbie) You're right that his current approval rating is at best an oversimplification of how he's been perceived by voters, but it still is significant that his presidency is viewed positively by so many Americans, very soon after he left office. He will only be loved more as time passes, and the wrinkles in his presidency get obscured by the fact that he was the first black president, not to mention when he is contrasted with Bush and Trump.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:17
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Fiction posted:ignoring poverty like you guys do directly leads to the empowerment of racists. not everyone who understands intersectionality is a national socialist lol Intersectionality refers to the notion that racism and class struggle are distinct, not that racism proceeds from class structures as youse guys promulgate on a constant basis. Anyways, your theory fails to account for middle-class racism, because it's built on the idea that the saintly white working class was abandoned by the diabolical liberal coastal elite, not on any kind of ideological analysis.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:25
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Brainiac Five posted:Intersectionality refers to the notion that racism and class struggle are distinct, not that racism proceeds from class structures as youse guys promulgate on a constant basis. Depends what you think is middle class. Small business types aren't workers.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:30
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Brainiac Five posted:Intersectionality refers to the notion that racism and class struggle are distinct, not that racism proceeds from class structures as youse guys promulgate on a constant basis. I don't know about the others here, but I certainly don't think that racism proceeds exclusively or directly from class structures. Intersectionality does, however, refer to more than just the distinct nature of racism and class struggle; it also refers to the inextricably intertwined nature of those and other identity issues. It is a mistake to assume that alleviating poverty cannot also lessen racist demagogues' hold on economically depressed communities.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:36
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Agnosticnixie posted:Depends what you think is middle class. Small business types aren't workers. Tally another one in the "Bernout seeks to avoid conversation with insipid gambit" column.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:35
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Brainiac Five posted:Tally another one in the "Bernout seeks to avoid conversation with insipid gambit" column. "The petty bourgeoisie absolutely counts as middle class for the purposes of my obtuse nagging." Also I'm more of a Salt person.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:38
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Condiv posted:If he's got an actual solution then he's free to say it. Hillaries never do though, cause the handwringing about racism is just an easy way to excuse Hillary's incompetence. If this is true then someone grounded in reality, even if they're advocating single payer or whatever, will lose to a buffoon promising the impossible and the system is doomed.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:39
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I actually don't see why people would have less to fear from racial equality the more stuff they have. Seems like an unjustified assumption. Agnosticnixie posted:"The petty bourgeoisie absolutely counts as middle class for the purposes of my obtuse nagging." No, you idiot. I'm talking about wealth and its proxy income, in response to the claim that lack of wealth is what causes racism. Marxian classes are only marxginally relevant to that conversation.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:44
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Brainiac Five posted:Tally another one in the "Bernout seeks to avoid conversation with insipid gambit" column. You are unequivocally the one person that this applies to most.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:44
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Fiction posted:You are unequivocally the one person that this applies to most. Wow, "unequivocally". Looks like we've got a coastal elite here, boys!
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Mar 28, 2017 21:45
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Brainiac Five posted:Wow, "unequivocally". Looks like we've got a coastal elite here, boys! Oh boy.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:49
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So haw many pages are we going to have of Braniac 5 insinuating all left wing dems are really nazis?
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Mar 28, 2017 21:53
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DeadlyMuffin posted:If this is true then someone grounded in reality, even if they're advocating single payer or whatever, will lose to a buffoon promising the impossible and the system is doomed. how do you come to a conclusion like that? i said nothing about a situation where you offer a voter single payer next to some outlandish lie. i said voters will take an outlandish lie over being told there's nothing to be done and they're actually going to lose more jobs. Condiv fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Mar 28, 2017 |
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Mar 28, 2017 21:56
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DeadlyMuffin posted:If this is true then someone grounded in reality, even if they're advocating single payer or whatever, will lose to a buffoon promising the impossible and the system is doomed. Well, that's where things like credibility and charisma factor in, though. Clinton had more credibility than Trump on a lot of issues, but not when it came to helping Rust Belt communities, at least from the perspective of those voters who defected.
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Mar 28, 2017 22:19
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Crowsbeak posted:So haw many pages are we going to have of Braniac 5 insinuating all left wing dems are really nazis? I have no idea but it's funny how these losers call the people who saw right through the centrist third way loser bulkshit "bernouts" as some attempt at an insult lol
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Mar 28, 2017 22:54
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:I have no idea but it's funny how these losers call the people who saw right through the centrist third way loser bulkshit "bernouts" as some attempt at an insult lol So seeing you repeat "loser" twice in a sentence, I have to ask- do you guys just share a single brain and toss it around between each other when it's time to post?
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Mar 28, 2017 23:07
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Hey I was thinking, maybe Bernie Supporters should get uniforms, and maybe get ourselves some badges. Also we should organize a guard for bernie, call it the Bern Detachment.
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Mar 28, 2017 23:16
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I get staying home because you're disillusioned with Democrats; I don't get voting Republican unless you're okay with overt racism Like Majorian said, you can think Trump is a racist and still think he is going to benefit you by bringing jobs back, so you take the plunge. If you actually believe that he can maybe achieve these things, it's not very strange. It's not like left-leaning people who voted for Clinton didn't have to do the same when it came to topics like Israel.
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Mar 28, 2017 23:17
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Like Majorian said, you can think Trump is a racist and still think he is going to benefit you by bringing jobs back, so you take the plunge. If you actually believe that he can maybe achieve these things, it's not very strange. On the other hand, white nationalism was central to Trump's campaign and central to his jobs "strategy", and while I'm sure some cretin will disagree with me on this, Clinton didn't make supporting Israel the centerpiece of her campaign.
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Mar 28, 2017 23:19
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Brainiac Five posted:On the other hand, white nationalism was central to Trump's campaign and central to his jobs "strategy", and while I'm sure some cretin will disagree with me on this, Clinton didn't make supporting Israel the centerpiece of her campaign. Who cares. The outcome for Palestinians if Clinton had made it a centerpiece and won would have been the same as if she hadn't made it a centerpiece and won.
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Mar 28, 2017 23:23
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