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Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed. |
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| Jeremy Corbyn |
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95 | 18.63% |
| Dennis Skinner |
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53 | 10.39% |
| Angus Robertson |
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20 | 3.92% |
| Tim Farron |
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9 | 1.76% |
| Paul Ukips |
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7 | 1.37% |
| Robot Lenin |
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105 | 20.59% |
| Tony Blair |
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28 | 5.49% |
| Pissflaps |
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193 | 37.84% |
| Total: | 510 votes | ||
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Pissflaps posted:Weird how we have vehemently pro Brexit media yet still nearly half the country still thinks it's a bad idea. It's a lot more than half who think it should still go ahead though. That's not exactly making the case that the media has no influence
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Mar 29, 2017 19:08
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https://twitter.com/MrsEff_/status/847125295538864128 Anyone in South Wales fancy a complaint under the Section 2 of the Suicide Act 1961?
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Mar 29, 2017 19:10
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baka kaba posted:It's a lot more than half who think it should still go ahead though. That's not exactly making the case that the media has no influence That almost as many people think Brexit was a mistake as those who don't, does The media hasn't persuaded people who voted Remain that Brexit is a good thing.
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Mar 29, 2017 19:11
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Why would it? Nothing's happened yet apart from a bunch of noise But there's much more support for actually going ahead with Brexit, and with May promising all things to all people, the Tories are going ahead with what the majority of people want. Until the negotiations start to play out, people can stay hopeful and optimistic it'll work ok. It's not like there's this 50% hotbed of resistance just waiting for a leader
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Mar 29, 2017 19:20
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Pissflaps posted:That almost as many people think Brexit was a mistake as those who don't, does But they have beating huge swathes of them into submission. The 'I'm not happy but we should let it go ahead anyway rather than get in the way/make things worse' mentality emerged from day one and is more common the more time passes.
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Mar 29, 2017 19:22
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It's depressing that I'm not an EU citizen in two years. I want that tweet to be about me, not me being the outsider.
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Mar 29, 2017 19:34
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Taear posted:It's depressing that I'm not an EU citizen in two years. I want that tweet to be about me, not me being the outsider. I can sell you one of my Irish grandparents if you want.
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Mar 29, 2017 19:42
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I can sell you one of my Irish grandparents if you want. Okay that sounds good.
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Mar 29, 2017 19:52
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Pissflaps posted:That almost as many people think Brexit was a mistake as those who don't, does Are you arguing that because the media hasn't persuaded everyone that we can't acknowledge how it did persuade some people.
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Mar 29, 2017 20:10
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Steve2911 posted:But they have beating huge swathes of them into submission. The 'I'm not happy but we should let it go ahead anyway rather than get in the way/make things worse' mentality emerged from day one and is more common the more time passes. An effective opposition still would've had a decent chance of preventing the hard Brexit we're getting. But oh well.
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Mar 29, 2017 20:25
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Are you arguing that because the media hasn't persuaded everyone that we can't acknowledge how it did persuade some people. Not sure how you'd extrapolate that from what I said.
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Mar 29, 2017 20:29
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Steve2911 posted:But they have beating huge swathes of them into submission. The 'I'm not happy but we should let it go ahead anyway rather than get in the way/make things worse' mentality emerged from day one and is more common the more time passes. It is, rather explicitly, the Labour line after all.
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Mar 29, 2017 20:31
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Can you imagine Angus Robertson in charge of a nationwide leftist party I mean MY GOD
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Mar 29, 2017 20:31
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I'd rather we import Jean-Luc Melenchon before the tariffs are enacted.
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Mar 29, 2017 20:45
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TinTower posted:https://twitter.com/MrsEff_/status/847125295538864128 Gonna need a link to what he actually said, was it on Twitter?
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Mar 29, 2017 20:46
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lol the battle between J-Melz and The Corbster to see who could tailspin the left into electoral oblivion the fastest would be something to watch but I'd rather have a strong left or *whisper* centre left instead of that
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Mar 29, 2017 20:47
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Coohoolin posted:Can you imagine Angus Robertson in charge of a nationwide leftist party I mean MY GOD The SNP being leftist would be a good start.
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Mar 29, 2017 20:51
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On a day of such poor news, let us rejoice. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-39437724 All her appeal achieved was adding a few extra grand onto the legal fees she has to pay.
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Mar 29, 2017 20:56
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jBrereton posted:lol the battle between J-Melz and The Corbster to see who could tailspin the left into electoral oblivion the fastest would be something to watch but I'd rather have a strong left or *whisper* centre left instead of that This makes no sense because JLM is outpolling Hamon by 5 points while the PS melts down with the right of the party having exactly the same kind of hissy fit the Labour right had over Corbyn. If anything JLM was prescient in recognising that neoliberal faux centre-left politicians have no interest in honouring the principle of having a big tent political party when they lose to leftists in internal elections. Macron will probably get elected but he'll go down in flames when people realise he literally represents the worst aspects of Hollande's government.
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Mar 29, 2017 21:03
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Robot Mil posted:Gonna need a link to what he actually said, was it on Twitter? Eluned Morgan was making a speech in the Senedd about how Brexit will disadvantage the poor the most, to which Hamilton heckled "suicide is an option". He was rebuked by the PO and only apologised because he would've been expelled from the chamber otherwise. BBC link
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Mar 29, 2017 22:13
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TinTower posted:Eluned Morgan was making a speech in the Senedd about how Brexit will disadvantage the poor the most, to which Hamilton heckled "suicide is an option". That's "sorry you were offended" levels of cuntitude.
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Mar 29, 2017 22:20
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TinTower posted:Eluned Morgan was making a speech in the Senedd about how Brexit will disadvantage the poor the most, to which Hamilton heckled "suicide is an option". I'm trying to figure out why he said this? Like I know he's a Tory but since when do they just go "LOL poor people go kil urself"? Are we through the looking glass because of Brexit? Are they going to get increasingly brazen? Is he just on a lot of drugs and forgot himself? Despite everything that's happened this has still taken me off guard. Was he specifically saying it to her? That'd make a bit more sense than telling the voters to kill themselves. What the gently caress? jBrereton posted:lol the battle between J-Melz and The Corbster to see who could tailspin the left into electoral oblivion the fastest would be something to watch but I'd rather have a strong left or *whisper* centre left instead of that The whole problem is there doesn't appear to be a "centre left" anymore. Blairites are not centre left. Maybe the fabled Clive Lewis? Gonna have to convince him to stop being a big baby first. Regarde Aduck fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 22:28
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TinTower posted:Eluned Morgan was making a speech in the Senedd about how Brexit will disadvantage the poor the most, to which Hamilton heckled "suicide is an option".
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Mar 29, 2017 22:33
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jBrereton posted:lol the battle between J-Melz and The Corbster to see who could tailspin the left into electoral oblivion the fastest would be something to watch but I'd rather have a strong left or *whisper* centre left instead of that Hollande, Miliband and Clinton already finished that particular race.
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Mar 29, 2017 22:38
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If he can tell people to kill themselves can I legally tweet that they should kill him in the process? I mean he is advocating self murder so he started it.
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Mar 29, 2017 22:39
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Regarde Aduck posted:Maybe the fabled Clive Lewis? Gonna have to convince him to stop being a big baby first. you got Lewis mixed up with someone else?
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Mar 29, 2017 22:45
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Regarde Aduck posted:I'm trying to figure out why he said this? Like I know he's a Tory but since when do they just go "LOL poor people go kil urself"? Are we through the looking glass because of Brexit? Are they going to get increasingly brazen? Is he just on a lot of drugs and forgot himself? UKIP. This has always been UKIP. They're usually slightly better at suppressing it though.
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Mar 29, 2017 22:48
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TinTower posted:Eluned Morgan was making a speech in the Senedd about how Brexit will disadvantage the poor the most, to which Hamilton heckled "suicide is an option". Wow the Welsh assembly is grim.
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Mar 29, 2017 22:51
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jabby posted:Also for anyone who cares an adjustment disorder is a 'condition in which a person responds to a stressful event (such as an illness, job loss, or divorce) with extreme emotions and actions that cause problems at work and home'. It is normally self-limiting and symptoms persist no longer than six months after the stressor is removed. I've been thinking about this post more today and wanted to post a couple more thoughts on it. Firstly, in general terms, I think you're on dicey ground with the "it's been criticised for being a highly broad diagnosis and is basically a convenient excuse" angle. Mental health conditions are forever being minimised because of the layman's perception of how (in)valid they are, e.g. by the tabloids ("look at that scrounger, unable to work due to anxiety"), judgemental adults about kids with ADHD ("that child just needs some discipline") etc. If it's acceptable to hold the view you stated about this mental condition in some cases (e.g. because the subject is a war criminal), then how can we criticise others for having the same beliefs about mental illnesses when the case might be a more deserving one? What's different from you claiming this is an excuse for Blackman, compared to the ATOS appraiser claiming that a diagnosis of anxiety or depression is someone just shirking from work? Basically, it feels like a nasty slippery slope. Secondly, I have practical issues with what you said, in how we deal with mental illnesses in court. If I understood the gist of your post correctly, you're basically implying that the wool was pulled over the court's eyes (either through active collusion or incompetence) in order to reduce the conviction. Now, you state the condition 'has been criticised for being a highly broad diagnosis.' Well, how would you like a hypothetical court to deal with this? You claim the condition is overly broad, and is being used as an excuse for criminal behaviour. Well, the court heard evidence from three experts in the field. Blackman paid for one, but the court appointed this person: quote:Dr Philip Joseph has been a consultant forensic psychiatrist since 1989. He has very great experience having assessed over 800 persons charged with homicide. He is recognised as a leader in his field. He was instructed by the CCRC and, after reaching his own conclusion, considered the reports that Dr Orr and Professor Greenberg had written. He agreed with both. He was, as the members of the court know from their own experience of his evidence in other cases, an extremely impressive and impartial witness. Why do you, as (I assume) a layman, think that you're able to see through the feeble mental health defence to the truth, when a pschiatric expert, appointed by the court specifically to come to his own conclusions, gets hoodwinked? The psychiatrist providing the report submitted by the defence, although instructed by Blackman, is a doctor and professor of defence mental health at Kings College London and was described by the court as a 'very impressive witness'. I would be surprised if these distinguished professionals in their field would be in the business of misleading the court to achieve a contrived verdict, which is the other side of what you're suggesting. But, practically, what's the alternative open to the justice system? We have a mental health condition that's defined by the WTO. They accept evidence from the defence, but also hire their own expert to form his own opinion and cross check the submitted evidence. How could this process be improved? Would you prefer the judge has discretion to do what you've done, and arbitrarily place less weight on particular conditions that he doesn't like the sound of? What happens when the recipient of this treatment is a poor granny rather than a war criminal? There's a big can of worms about how we deal with mental health conditions in the judicial system lying under your post just waiting to be opened. We have to uphold the principles of justice for Blackman for the very same reason we punished him for shooting a wounded Taliban prisoner. You can't relax your standards just because the other person is a poo poo. Your post had got me thinking a lot though, so thanks I guess. 
Prince John fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 22:53
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Jabby is, in his defence, a doctor. Probably not a psychiatric doctor though. Either way not a layman There is also a genuine and legitimate point to be made about the fact that as a generality across all of the mental health (+related conditions) diagnostic criteria have gotten broader. Whether this is purely due to greater understandings of conditions is something I'm not qualified to speculate either way on. Namtab fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 23:00
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Coohoolin posted:Can you imagine Angus Robertson in charge of a nationwide leftist party I mean MY GOD No. Because he's not actually particularly left wing.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:02
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I can imagine it. He'd probably shout a bit and look a bit pissed off then suggest they order some flags.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:07
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Coohoolin posted:Can you imagine Angus Robertson in charge of a nationwide leftist party I mean MY GOD i imagine it'd be quite like Brown being in charge of Labour. and mostly people would moan he's not left wing enough
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Mar 29, 2017 23:12
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To be pedantic, I should point out that the murder/manslaughter by diminished responsibility is a jury matter, and they are under no obligation to accept expert evidence. The sentencing statement says as such. Even so, the way in which Blackman's adjustment disorder came to be discussed is rather irregular. Even if we consider that Blackman was significantly impaired, there still remains the culpability, complicity, and conspiracy of the entire squad to:
The squad, or at least Blackman, went out to commit a premeditated murder of a wounded prisoner of war. Even on the lesser charge, I would have at the very least reinstated the life/eight year sentence the first appeals court reduced it to.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:27
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Prince John posted:I've been thinking about this post more today and wanted to post a couple more thoughts on it. That's cool, let me try and respond to your thoughts. Prince John posted:Firstly, in general terms, I think you're on dicey ground with the "it's been criticised for being a highly broad diagnosis and is basically a convenient excuse" angle. Firstly when I say adjustment disorder has been criticised for having an overly broad definition I don't mean by the likes of the Daily Mail, I mean by other psychiatrists. If you're interested you could read the ICD-10 criteria for the condition and compare it with the diagnostic criteria for related illnesses like depression or anxiety and see what you think. To give a flavour diagnosing someone with depression requires certain major and minor criteria that are fairly well defined and have to be observed and persist for a certain length of time. You can also subclassify depression based on severity and there are many well-regarded assessment tools. Adjustment disorder by comparison is an extremely subjective diagnosis even by the standards of psychiatry, since as I mentioned the only real criteria is to display extreme behaviour in the presence of a stressful situation. Prince John posted:Why do you, as (I assume) a layman, think that you're able to see through the feeble mental health defence to the truth, when a pschiatric expert, appointed by the court specifically to come to his own conclusions, gets hoodwinked? For accuracy's sake I'm not strictly a layman, I'm a junior doctor although my experience in psychiatry is limited to four months work in a psychiatric hospital. I wouldn't really say the defence witnesses here were 'hoodwinked', more that psychiatry is a subjective discipline, adjustment disorder is an extreme example of that, and attempting to diagnose someone who has incentive to be dishonest in their answers is inherently very unreliable. Especially if the illness in question occurred in the past and they aren't expected to demonstrate any current symptoms. I personally don't believe that answers he gave to questions about his mental state at the time, considering his capacity to lie, outweigh the objective evidence of him behaving extremely rationally on video. Prince John posted:There's a big can of worms about how we deal with mental health conditions in the judicial system lying under your post just waiting to be opened. We have to uphold the principles of justice for Blackman for the very same reason we punished him for shooting a wounded Taliban prisoner. You can't relax your standards just because the other person is a poo poo. The other side of my point is that you shouldn't strip someone of all their agency simply because they have a mental health condition. Even if you take at face value the psychiatrist's report, you still need to demonstrate that the reason that he shot the wounded fighter was because he wasn't in his right mind. As an argument against that, how about the fact that all of his squadmates talked about doing the same thing and to this day don't believe he did anything wrong? Are they all suffering from mental health conditions? Are the Daily Mail readers who think he was justified in what he did also mentally ill? Or is it perfectly plausible to believe that whether or not Blackman was suffering from adjustment disorder his decision to kill a wounded fighter was perfectly in keeping with his personality, beliefs, and the moral framework of himself and those around him? jabby fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 23:29
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 this is us, this is
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Mar 29, 2017 23:31
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LemonDrizzle posted:
That's, that's...just horrifically bad. These vermin need to be stopped.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:47
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https://twitter.com/The45Storm/status/847136619622739970
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Mar 29, 2017 23:47
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So at what point do they look in the mirror and go "Wait a second, we're the bad guys."
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Mar 29, 2017 23:49
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Thanks, that's an interesting post and I'll have a read of that paper. jabby posted:The other side of my point is that you shouldn't strip someone of all their agency simply because they have a mental health condition. Even if you take at face value the psychiatrist's report, you still need to demonstrate that the reason that he shot the wounded fighter was because he wasn't in his right mind. As an argument against that, how about the fact that all of his squadmates talked about doing the same thing and to this day don't believe he did anything wrong? Are they all suffering from mental health conditions? Are the Daily Mail readers who think he was justified in what he did also mentally ill? Or is it perfectly plausible to believe that whether or not Blackman was suffering from adjustment disorder his decision to kill a wounded fighter was perfectly in keeping with his personality, beliefs, and the moral framework of himself and those around him? I suppose I would say that the judges didn't strip him of his agency - they still explicitly say he was responsible for his actions, but they assessed this level of repsonsibility at 'medium' rather than 'high'. Let's not forget that he's still been found guilty of manslaughter and sentenced to 7 years, and he was on 8 for murder. My impression was that one of the key reasons they thought the original conviction was unsafe was because the original judges didn't consider any psychiatric evidence at all at the first court martial, rather than just the fact he had this condition (I think there was also something in there where the judges considered the historical lying and why it wasn't relevant to particular aspects of the pschiatric evidence, but can't quite remember specifics). I don't want to make light of the crimes, but when you ask whether all the squad were suffering from mental health conditions, I am tempted to say 'maybe'? Train a bunch of men to kill, stick them in an isolated outpost with inadequate manpower, leadership and support, and have other people shoot and kill them for 5 months, and I'm not entirely shocked they might want to take some revenge. The training is supposed to stop them from breaking the rules of war, and obviously failed miserably in this case, but I do regard them as being to some extent molded by their vocation and the circumstances and I wouldn't be surprised if they all were affected by mental health conditions to some degree. You'd obviously be a better judge of that than me, since my medical experience is nada. That belief is one of the reasons I half raise the idea of some alternative criminal justice system for veterans ITT from time to time, but I've not really spent the time to articulate it properly. What about the wider point though, even if we keep it specifically to this condition? You said quote:"Adjustment disorder by comparison is an extremely subjective diagnosis even by the standards of psychiatry, since as I mentioned the only real criteria is to display extreme behaviour in the presence of a stressful situation" I'm really struggling to see an alternative, unless you would prefer to declassify this particular condition entirely? If we accept it's a valid condition, then perhaps guilty men getting lesser convictions from time to time is just the price we have to pay? Back to Blackstone's Formulation again?
Prince John fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 23:51
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