UKMT March 2017 - Blame it on the Bourgie - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT March 2017 - Blame it on the Bourgie

Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed.
Jeremy Corbyn	95	18.63%
Dennis Skinner	53	10.39%
Angus Robertson	20	3.92%
Tim Farron	9	1.76%
Paul Ukips	7	1.37%
Robot Lenin	105	20.59%
Tony Blair	28	5.49%
Pissflaps	193	37.84%
Total:	510 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

kingturnip: Apr 18, 2008

If the EU does get the City of London, can I sign a petition stating that they get Liverpool Street Station? I reckon a �50/month charge for entry/exit/transit would be reasonable. _{_{_{_{And cheaper than transit through Zone 1}}}}

# ? Mar 30, 2017 15:39

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 15, 2024 04:09

Lobster God: Nov 5, 2008

haakman posted:

Thought you lot might like an effort post I made on grammar schools to distract you from Pissflaps. Sorry it's a bit out of the blue.

Ok, the conversation on Grammar schools really, really boils my piss. Let's look at the evidence rather than picking up soundbites about meritocracy and so forth. Firstly, to make sure my interest in this is set out at the start: I went to a grammar school and then moved into private education. I also come from a middle class background. I am now a teacher (have taught at grammar, primary, secondary, further and higher education)

Social Mobility

Firstly - how to measure social mobility within Grammar Schools? Well, we can use FSM (Free School Meal) eligibility. At the moment 3% of grammar school pupils are eligible for FSM. Hardly opening the door to poorer kids. 13% of grammar school children come from private schools beforehand. An IFS study has found that pupils eligible for FSM are significantly less likely to go to a grammar school.

Adam Swift, professor of Political Economy at Warwick, states:-

“Some urge the reintroduction or expansion of grammar schools on the grounds that this would increase social mobility. I am not aware of any empirical research that supports that claim. There is no evidence that comprehensive schools have been worse for social mobility than the selective schools they replaced, nor that expanding selection would bring about an increase in mobility. “

Pupils who are eligible for FSM who go to a grammar (3% remember) are marginally more likely to achieve. The difference is around 1/8th of a GCSE grade.

So, at the moment we can see that grammars have little effect on state school pupils (3%), rather than your middle-class, pay for 11+ tuition types. What about, ellywu2, if we start building more grammars in deprived areas? surely these stats might change? potentially yes (though in 2016 Skegness Grammar, one of the most deprived areas in the country, took on 11% of students with FSM as opposed to the secondary moderns in the area which took on 50%), but there is a far more concerning issue with grammar schools than who goes to them and how successful they are and that is what happens to the people left behind. The people who don't pass the 11+ or, alternatively, the people whose parents do not, or cannot, pay for tuition specifically to pass the 11+.

Increasing Inequality

Firstly, we have to be on the same playing field with regard to inequality. Inequality is bad. I hope there is no contrarian view on this - the idea that increasing inequality is a good thing is bogus. I would point you to this video for an easy watch on why inequality is bad:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw&t=29s

Grammar schools demonstrably increase inequality. Students in areas where there selective schools who fail the 11+ do demonstrably worse than those in comprehensive areas at GCSE level. If you do not get into a grammar school in a selective area your life chances are directly affected by this. Stephen Gorard, professor of Education at Durham, says “There is repeated evidence that any appearance of advantage for those attending selective schools is outweighed by the disadvantage for those who do not. More children lose out than gain, and the attainment gaps between highest and lowest and between richest and poorest are larger."

Wage gaps in areas where there are grammar schools are higher than in non selective areas (based on a study by the University of Bristol taking into account other factors such as gender, ethnicity etc and still finding that 18% of the difference could be attributed to schooling).

Areas with selection also face a problem with teaching. In these areas quality teachers will be hovered up by grammar schools (admission: I myself did the same when applying for a teaching job in a selection area - I went straight for the grammar school). As Prof Simon Burgess from the University of Bristol says:

*"Selective schooling systems sort pupils based on their ability and schools with high-ability pupils are more likely to attract and retain high quality teaching staff. This puts pupils who miss out on a grammar school place at an immediate disadvantage.

"In addition they will be part of lower ability peer groups, which also affects their chances of succeeding at school."*

You do not need Grammar schools to improve social mobility and education - you need comprehensive schools with good policy, solid teaching and good practice. Look at London for example. Inner city London was once feared by teachers. You couldn't pay me enough to teach there. Now? It's doing really well, due to the above factors. Look here for more evidence:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/321969/London_Schools_-_FINAL.pdf

The 11+ exam

Ok, on to the 11+ exam itself. Firstly, and this is quite an odd situation, the 11+ is one of the only exams which does not allow retakes. That's it. You're done. Boom. Now, this may not have happened to you but I personally and lots (a few each year) of my students have messed up exams before. I personally messed up my GCSE Maths exam and had to retake. Imagine if that exam fundamentally affected my life chances - that one single hour long exam could affect my chances in life (because if I fail I end up at the secondary modern - see above). Then imagine I was 11 years old.

If you come from a poor background you will, more than likely, have a worse attitude to education. It has been statistically proven that (for the majority, just in case we get a 'But I knuckled down and did well just-world-fallacy type') that lower socio-economic background worsens your chances in education. Parents both working full time long hours, no nanny, parents' attitude to education - all of these things and more come into play. How, at age 11, are you meant to have the same academic rigour as someone who has been tutored specifically to pass this exam - it's a stacked deck against you from birth in some instances.

Moreover, and this is more pathos than anything else so feel free to shout 'appeal to emotion reeeeee', being told, at age 11, that you are not good enough for grammar schools can be utterly devastating to students. It can shape their attitude to education. I've had to tell students before and it breaks some of them. You end up with the attitude 'Whatever - this is a poo poo school and you're only here because you couldn't get a job anywhere else. Why should I try when I already know I'm poo poo?'. You see this attitude somewhat with setting in modern comprehensives - selective education only exacerbates it.

Finally, I thought I would debunk some further myths which still linger around about both grammars and the current comprehensive system. I have copy pasted these.

Myth 1: Comprehensives have failed

Fact: The comprehensive period has been one of huge expansion of educational opportunity and parents are generally happy with the comprehensive that their child attends. Achievement is up. University places are up. Satisfaction is up (well, at least until 2011).

Myth 2: The Grammar School system was popular in the 1950s and 60s

Fact: The grammar school system was actually very unpopular in its heyday, which was why both parties were happy to see it changed.

Myth 3:The working-class kids who got to grammar school did well

Fact: Those few working-class children who got to grammar school did not succeed, in terms of exam results

Myth 4: Grammars schools are better than comprehensives today in getting students into Oxbridge

Fact: The vast majority of state school educated Oxbridge students are from comprehensives and grammar school students appear to be actually under-represented at these universities.

Myth 5: Disadvantaged students do better where there are grammar schools

Fact: Selective education systems benefit the 5% of students from the most well-off backgrounds.but harm the 50% from the poorest backgrounds.

Conclusion

As far as I, and many in the education sector are concerned (including the former chief head of OFSTED), the key to improving education is not through segregation (The OECD finds that countries with selective education systems are more socio-economically segregated that those with comprehensive systems. ) but rather through improving the whole. Education policy is far too important to be blinkered by ideology. It should be evidence based and the evidence either points to grammar schools being incredibly bad for society at the expense of the few or there being no evidence of the benefit of them at all. Members of the Conservative party who support grammars (and bear in mind not all Conservative MPs do) always use the phrase 'equality of opportunity'. Grammars are the opposite. You are pulling up the drawbridge on a majority of students at aged 11.

Nine of the ten best education systems in the world are comprehensive. I hope this figure sinks in.

Sources:-

https://fullfact.org/education/grammar-schools-and-social-mobility-whats-evidence/

http://schoolsweek.co.uk/fact-check-do-the-arguments-for-new-grammar-schools-stack-up/

http://www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2015/03/eleven-grammar-school-myths-and-the-actual-facts

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/duncan-exley/opponents-of-grammar-schools-have-truth-on-their-side-but-truth-alone-won-t-win-battle

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/may/29/grammar-schools-create-wider-pay-gap-study-finds

http://educationmediacentre.org/newsreactions/the-myth-of-grammar-schools-social-mobility-thats-the-evidence-from-leading-academics/

https://www.jrf.org.uk/blog/grammar-schools-do-they-really-help-social-mobility

Gorard, S. and See, BH. (2013) Overcoming disadvantage in education, London: Routledge, ISBN 978-0415536899

Erzsébet Bukodi, Robert Erikson and John H Goldthorpe, ‘The Effects of Social Origins and Cognitive Ability on Educational Attainment: Evidence from Britain and Sweden’

https://www.jrf.org.uk/press/bringing-back-grammar-schools-won%E2%80%99t-increase-opportunity-those-who-need-it-most

An excellent post and one I (comp teacher in a grammar area) utterly agree with.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 15:43

Nothingtoseehere: Nov 11, 2010

Everyone read the good effortpost of grammars at the end of last page, it's a good rundown if the facts.

I didn't know that grammars were worse at oxbridge placement than comprehensive: very surprising, for how they go on about boosting the high-achievers.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 15:44

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Zalakwe posted:

And who can forget that Scottish classic The Billy Boys. I've only.ever seen racism at games in England though. Contrastingly Arbroath is the politest ground I have ever been to, fans swapped ends round the terraces at half time and many shook hands. Was pre-season though.

Experienced that as an away fan at an Alloa game too. Lower league football is the best.

Comrade Cheggorsky posted:

Jeremy Corbyn is a secret brexiteer who wants a full English brexit

Interesting definition of secret.

TinTower posted:

It is possible, and under a different Whitehall administration, likely, that the UK-EU deal can involve the UK joining EFTA alongside leaving the EU, without interrupting EEA membership.

This we could remain in the Single Market but not be in the EU.

LOL at this being the least awful result possible. Being forced to follow all the rules, while having no say in them going forward and losing all of the neat benefits we had will be so hard to sell without people first seeing how rotten Brexit will actually be.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 15:45

Skinty McEdger: Mar 9, 2008; I have NEVER received the respect I deserve as the leader and founder of The Masterflock, the internet's largest and oldest Christopher Masterpiece fan group in all of history, and I DEMAND that changes. From now on, you will respect Skinty McEdger!

It's absolutely depressing that best case scenario for these negotiations is a worse situation than the one we're in now, and even that seems an impossibility to achieve.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 15:46

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

Pissflaps posted:

Those different circumstances being labour winning a general election.

What a fanciful notion.

It is rather fanciful that the circumstances under which Brexit will be negotiated would be altered by Labour winning a general election that won't take place until after the negotiations are finished, yes.

I would call this pissflapping to the pissflaps, but on the other hand it's not entirely surprising that I'm forced to explain the concept of time to him.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 15:46

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

haakman posted:

Thought you lot might like an effort post I made on grammar schools to distract you from Pissflaps. Sorry it's a bit out of the blue.

That is a very interesting post, as someone who lives in a country without grammar schools.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 15:47

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Cerebral Bore posted:

It is rather fanciful that the circumstances under which Brexit will be negotiated would be altered by Labour winning a general election that won't take place until after the negotiations are finished, yes.

I would call this pissflapping to the pissflaps, but on the other hand it's not entirely surprising that I'm forced to explain the concept of time to him.

Article 50 is extendible and reversible.

General elections can be called early.

Get somebody to explain the concept of opposition and competency to you.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 15:49

Laradus: Feb 16, 2011

Thank you Haakman - I said I wanted to read it ages ago when you suggested writing one - thank you for taking the time.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 15:55

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

everyone pretending not to comprehend the difference between "can't" and "won't" is a new low for this thread

# ? Mar 30, 2017 16:15

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

One's slang and the other's custom. :v:

# ? Mar 30, 2017 16:29

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

forkboy84 posted:

LOL at this being the least awful result possible. Being forced to follow all the rules, while having no say in them going forward and losing all of the neat benefits we had will be so hard to sell without people first seeing how rotten Brexit will actually be.

Well, literally everyone and their dog was saying how the benefits of EFTA were not substitutable for the benefits of the EU, including EFTA members.

For that we were called Project Fear.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 16:33

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

What are the top ten education systems in the world, anyway, and what's the tenth?

e: got the source quote

quote:

https://www.ft.com/content/1f4832ee-7327-11e5-bdb1-e6e4767162cc

Globally, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has found that countries that select at 11 are invariably more socio-economically segregated than countries that have comprehensive systems. The top 10 most successful education systems in the world are all comprehensive, bar Singapore which has a non-academic stream for a small minority.

I'm not sure how well that holds up, as a claim - the FT article cites no sources.

ronya fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Mar 30, 2017

# ? Mar 30, 2017 16:40

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

ronya posted:

What are the top ten education systems in the world, anyway, and what's the tenth?

e: got the source quote

I'm not sure how well that holds up, as a claim - the FT article cites no sources.

If only it was trivial to link PISA data to the OECD's records about inequality.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 17:01

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

More like PISA poo poo.

Seriously though, one of the big unintended consequences of the whole thing was the rephrasing of the entire educational model in terms of barrages of short term standardized tests. I'm not sure that an education system is 'world class' if all it's does is ensures that students can fulfill that.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 17:10

happyhippy: Feb 21, 2005; Playing games, watching movies, owning goons. 'sup; Pillbug

Pochoclo posted:

Well, on the one hand, quality of life in Britain will decrease around 30%, but on the other hand, we will TAKE BACK CONTROL... so that we can erode workers' rights and decrease quality of life for the non-rich another 30% or so.

This.
As long as the SE of England thinks it has control, some posh Etonian can decide how things will go, chin chin upper lip best of britain!

# ? Mar 30, 2017 17:15

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/847466752514576384
https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/847466893996720131

Can't wait for Momentum France to start Le Canary

# ? Mar 30, 2017 18:07

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Corbyn has made himself irrelevant.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 18:08

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

i think corbyn wasn't prepared to deal with brexit, in any way shape or form

# ? Mar 30, 2017 18:11

ukle: Nov 28, 2005

I hope my hunch turns out correct and Corbyn resigns within the next few days as it is the perfect opportunity for a new leader to take over Labour given the real Brexit discussions wont start until late summer. Their wont be a better opportunity to make the switch than this.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 18:16

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

TinTower posted:

https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/847466752514576384
https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/847466893996720131

Can't wait for Momentum France to start Le Canary

Corbyn not being quoted in opposition to Brexit, hmm, must be one of those right-wing media conspiracies.

Kurtofan posted:

i think corbyn wasn't prepared to deal with brexit, in any way shape or form

I don't think he was prepared to lead the Labour Party regardless of what happened. He seems like a good person and someone I'd have loved to see in the Shadow Cabinet under a slightly more charismatic/dynamic leader, but I think he just doesn't have the political chops to keep his own party in line, let alone take the fight to the Tories.

Here's a conspiracy theory which I don't personally believe but which amuses me anyway. Both he and Milliband were elected apparently over the wishes of the PLP, having been put on the ballot more or less as sops to the Left, but maybe the PLP are in fact geniuses and have managed to put up probably the two least effective leaders the party has ever seen so they can finally get the Left to shut up and elect a nice safe Red Tory.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 18:18

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

ukle posted:

I hope my hunch turns out correct and Corbyn resigns within the next few days as it is the perfect opportunity for a new leader to take over Labour given the real Brexit discussions wont start until late summer. Their wont be a better opportunity to make the switch than this.

He won't resign, not voluntarily. Maaaaaaybe he might consider it if he can force through rule changes to make the leadership nominations open to the entire party, but there's no way he'd resign knowing full well with the rules the way they are at the moment it'll result in Benn or one of his lot in charge.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 18:21

Tigey: Apr 6, 2015

goddamnedtwisto posted:

maybe the PLP are in fact geniuses

I think I see the flaw in this theory

# ? Mar 30, 2017 18:43

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

goddamnedtwisto posted:

He won't resign, not voluntarily. Maaaaaaybe he might consider it if he can force through rule changes to make the leadership nominations open to the entire party, but there's no way he'd resign knowing full well with the rules the way they are at the moment it'll result in Benn or one of his lot in charge.

Is the idea here that the Labour Party can have a leader that isn't an MP?

# ? Mar 30, 2017 19:05

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

Pissflaps posted:

Is the idea here that the Labour Party can have a leader that isn't an MP?

There's at least precedent for peers to be nominated, but no, I think the plan is that the requirement the nominees be sitting MPs would be retained just to prevent the hilarious outcome of a PM being unable to take office because nobody is willing to give up their seat.

Mind you that still wouldn't be the strangest of the possible outcomes being mooted - confidently predicted in fact - by some people.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 19:50

Marenghi: Oct 16, 2008; Don't trust the liberals,
they will betray you

kustomkarkommando posted:

For the record Ireland has already complained to the European Commission that certain EU countries (cough cough Luxembourg) are engaging in backdoor incentives to attract companies looking to keep a foot in the EU - basically giving them brass plate registration without having to move capital.

That was after AIG picked Luxembourg a few weeks or so ago

Those complaints probably had to do with the fact the Irish government hasn't done much to attract British companies and now seems to be losing out to other European countries.

I'm not sure where'd we put them if they did come here. There's a serious housing shortage and vacant commercial property isn't in abundance either. The cost of living in Dublin is pretty high considering you don't get much to show for it.

I had read bankers don't rate it as a place to relocate due to lack of quality schools and restaurants for the rich.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 19:52

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Marenghi posted:

schools and restaurants for the rich.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 20:01

kingturnip: Apr 18, 2008

Interesting to see that the Govt is considering dropping the SATs at the end of Year 2.
They're a vile idea and whoever presented it should have been dropped from the roof of Conservative HQ at the time, but better late than never as long as they follow through.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 20:18

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

kingturnip posted:

Interesting to see that the Govt is considering dropping the SATs at the end of Year 2.
They're a vile idea and whoever presented it should have been dropped from the roof of Conservative HQ at the time, but better late than never as long as they follow through.

SATs for 6 year olds? Bloody hell. I don't mind standardised testing in principle as a source of data for research and policy making but I wouldn't even give the schools back the results never mind the kids and parents.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 20:27

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

TinTower posted:

https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/847466752514576384
https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/847466893996720131

Can't wait for Momentum France to start Le Canary

le canari

# ? Mar 30, 2017 20:28

baka kaba: Jul 19, 2003; PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

Marenghi posted:

Those complaints probably had to do with the fact the Irish government hasn't done much to attract British companies and now seems to be losing out to other European countries.

I'm not sure where'd we put them if they did come here. There's a serious housing shortage and vacant commercial property isn't in abundance either. The cost of living in Dublin is pretty high considering you don't get much to show for it.

I had read bankers don't rate it as a place to relocate due to lack of quality schools and restaurants for the rich.

Actually

quote:

JP Morgan is in talks to buy an office building in Dublin big enough to hold more than 1,000 workers, increasing speculation that it will move a substantial number of jobs from London as a result of Brexit.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 20:49

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/chris-patten-says-theresa-may-creating-millwall-britain-no-one-likes-us-we-don-t

quote:

Do you remember that, I'm not a particular football fan, but do you remember that Millwall football supporters' song? "No one loves us, we don't care." That's going to turn into our position in the world.

it's a good line. corbyn should steal it off Patten

# ? Mar 30, 2017 20:52

HJB: Feb 16, 2011; I can't get enough of are Dan

Adopting Millwall chants is definitely a flawless strategy.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 20:59

Julio Cruz: May 19, 2006

Cerv posted:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/03/chris-patten-says-theresa-may-creating-millwall-britain-no-one-likes-us-we-don-t

it's a good line. corbyn should steal it off Patten

You know, with an attitude like that I bet Millwall have been going from strength to strength in the football world recently.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 21:03

sinky: Feb 22, 2011; Slippery Tilde

quote:

Millwall, Millwall, you're all really dreadful, and your girlfriends are unfulfilled and alienated...

# ? Mar 30, 2017 21:05

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

UKMT April: Dreadful, unfulfilled, and alienated.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 21:11

happyhippy: Feb 21, 2005; Playing games, watching movies, owning goons. 'sup; Pillbug

UKMT April 2017 - Who would have guessed N.Korea would last longer than the UK.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 21:56

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

This is really funny, Justine Greening: Oh you know inequality is so bad, it's dreadful that lowest achieving rich kids are 35% more likely to be high-earners than highest-achieving poor kids. It's a really long hard slog to change that though.

That's why we are bringing back grammars!!! Proven to increase inequality to new dizzying heights

Utter shameless scum

# ? Mar 30, 2017 22:10

Breath Ray: Nov 19, 2010

I only learned that about gramme schools earlier tody tbf

# ? Mar 30, 2017 22:12

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 15, 2024 04:09

Marenghi: Oct 16, 2008; Don't trust the liberals,
they will betray you

baka kaba posted:

Actually

One out of many is openly considering Dublin. How many have already committed to Paris, Brussels and Luxembourg as their post-Brexit EU headquarters.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 22:24

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT March 2017 - Blame it on the Bourgie

«‹›163 »