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To answer your last pm, yes thunderfire cannons are good, no Sniper scouts are not.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:41
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32mm is superior to 28. The only 28mm infantry I have left are old Death Korps of Krieg and they're at least truescale so they fit better with the svelte sci-fi models from other ranges, mainly infinity. The space marines' chunky nature actively works against mixing them with other ranges since not only are they shorter, the heroic-scale chunky squat outline makes them look like manlets.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:42
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I think you've actually got quite few different attitudes from people who play 30k/40k currently. The usual doommongers are out with their bells and foghorns shouting about how the end of the world is nigh, but you've also got a whole range of people from the "angry" to "ecstatic" about upcoming changes. GW have said on numerous occasions that they're not going to go "end times" on 40k and admitted that how they handled WHFB to AoS could have been done better. But they have also acknowledged that 40k does need a shake up and there's a lot of things in AoS that work significantly better than their 40k equivalent. The new version of 40k won't be a completely new game - it has to interface with existing ranges and expansions such as Heresy and 40k still forms a significant part of GW's annual sales. One of the biggest problems when reading the comments section of a large portion of the internet is that the people commenting live in their own little bubble and are blissfully unaware (or ignore) what GW have said (both publicly and when asked face to face), but are still happy to shout the odds from their own skewed and inaccurate opinion. Think about the number of times we come across people saying that "AoS has no tactics" - 99% of the time the person saying it has never played a game. It's a bit like saying "I don't like butternut squash" when you've only looked at it in the supermarket or had a friend explain what it's like. I think I've said before, I'm looking forward to the new rules. I'm still collecting for the three main games and happy to invest in new books, models etc for all of them, does this make me one of those "fan boyz"? Possibly, however I'm happy to say when I don't like something or when something doesn't make sense.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:43
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AoS got a couple things right: Pretty good value boxed set for a GW game. "Free rules" for the couple weeks they stuck to that. Online profiles for the units as they're brought out. Stealing Warmahordes synergy focus. I guess some people point to the monster wounds system but it's just a less interesting version of warmahordes' fancy module damage system imo Also I guess the double turn system makes games shorter cause if you get two turns in a row you win most of the time? It's a very simple ruleset that made a bunch of huge, baffling, obvious mistakes though (no points, measure from the base' all damaging spells and abilities boiled down to xd6 mortal wounds) and delivering it off the back of end times... I can't imagine how pissed I'd be if I'd invested in those books and armies. It doesn't bode well for a future 40k rework that looks imminent, I'd genuinely recommend any earnest 40k players to wait for AoS40k to hit before picking up anything except probably the space Marines new releases which will be incorporated into whatever comes next unless GW are totally mad.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:51
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They won't end times 40k in that they won't shitcan the whole setting but the current event is just the end times for 40k even down to all the elves allying into a single crazy powerful list, an evil supermage appearing and chaos going crazy blowing up worlds. They will try and 'streamline' the setting in the same way they've streamlined fantasy I.e. by splitting all the factions into multiple minifactions (old poo poo dwarves, Slayer dwarves, steampunk mlady dwarves) which to an extent they're already doing. E sorry for big double posts, phone posting on a train to pass the time.
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Mar 30, 2017 17:00
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TheChirurgeon posted:regularly play with buffalo chicken who sculpts stuff and makes conversions from all kinds of poo poo. It's a pain to track what's what in those games, but if we aren't playing for serious, I don't care. Proxying to a certain extent is fine (no grenades on a model? Who cares.) Subbing an entirely different model range causes confusion and isn't fun to play against.
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Mar 30, 2017 17:20
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And yet Kings of War tournaments manage it just fine.
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Mar 30, 2017 17:25
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UM EXCUSE ME THAT MURDERFUCKER SPACE NAZI IS CLEARLY ARMED WITH AN ERADICATOR-DEATH CANNON AND NOT AN ERADICATOR-DOOMGUN! NO I WILL NOT LET YOU USE THAT MODEL SIR! I SAID GOOD DAY SIR!
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Mar 30, 2017 17:34
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*having a friendly conversation with a fellow ham during a game* *notices one of his flamers is actually a meltagun* WHAT THE gently caress IS THIS poo poo BRENT?!?!
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Mar 30, 2017 17:35
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Moola posted:*having a friendly conversation with a fellow ham during a game* That is effectively cheating.
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Mar 30, 2017 17:38
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"Hey guys I'm new to this game and wanted to try out this new list I made, but I dont have a Predator tank so I'm just going to use this WW2 tank model if thats ok?" *takes off Fedora* "You came to the wrong neighborhood motherfucker..."
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Mar 30, 2017 17:39
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Atlas Hugged posted:And yet Kings of War tournaments manage it just fine. E: of course I say this but I'm sure the reason why L5R was its own D&D supplement was because some nerd couldn't handle the katana having the same stats as a normal longsword. Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 17:40
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We're circling back to the concept of mutual respect.
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Mar 30, 2017 17:41
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The manager at my old GW had a very selective policy when it came to whether or not he'd allow certain models on his tables when discrepancies were found. Basically, if it demonstrated that the owner had put any amount of effort into his model, he'd allow it. Flamer instead of a meltagun? That's fine. But when a rando came by and assumed coffee mugs were suitable stand-ins for drop pods? "Is there a unit entry for coffee mugs in the Space Marine Codex? No? Take it off the table." In 9th Age the sharing of army list contents is actually written into the rules. Before determining deployment zones, you're meant to share your army list with your opponent and give a quick rundown of what each unit has or represents. Because there's no restriction on what models need to be used for anything, sometimes this is necessary, but it's never obtrusive and never takes more than a minute or two. It also helps newer players in that they won't have anything "sprung" on them that they weren't aware of the existence of. Deino fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 17:41
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Deino posted:The manager at my old GW had a very selective policy when it came to whether or not he'd allow certain models on his tables when discrepancies were found. Basically, if it demonstrated that the owner had put any amount of effort into his model, he'd allow it. Flamer instead of a meltagun? That's fine. But when a rando came by and assumed coffee mugs were suitable stand-ins for drop pods? "Is there a unit entry for coffee mugs in the Space Marine Codex? No? Take it off the table." sounds like a grade-A rear end in a top hat my dude ijyt posted:We're circling back to the concept of mutual respect. circle my butt you dang ol rabbit Tracer!
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Mar 30, 2017 17:43
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My buddy once left half his models at home by accident when we were playing X-wing. He had to use cocktail sausages to represent his tie swarm. I mean I'm sure I could feel disrespected by this, but thinking back on this I still laugh at the memory of it.
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Mar 30, 2017 17:47
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Atlas Hugged posted:And yet Kings of War tournaments manage it just fine. Come on now, in KoW war you are tracking whole units who have bases touching and homogenous weapon options. In 40K/AoS you are tracking individual models each with their own weapon selections. Hardly the same thing.
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Mar 30, 2017 17:48
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Skinty McEdger posted:My buddy once left half his models at home by accident when we were playing X-wing. He had to use cocktail sausages to represent his tie swarm. Nothing wrong with a sausage party.
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Mar 30, 2017 17:49
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TKIY posted:Come on now, in KoW war you are tracking whole units who have bases touching and homogenous weapon options. In 40K/AoS you are tracking individual models each with their own weapon selections. People in here don't care about reality. It's like arguing with men's rights advocates
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Mar 30, 2017 17:50
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one tournament i had to use a large marker for one of my giant robots cause i accidentally left the giant robot foam layer at home. no one cared cause its a game who the gently caress cares u nerds
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Mar 30, 2017 17:51
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Moola posted:circle my butt you dang ol rabbit Tracer! We were meant to keep the RP to PM's 
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Mar 30, 2017 17:51
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nopantsjack posted:AoS got a couple things right: I absolutely agree. Them giving us a basically free game with literally free rules for all my old models was really awesome! It may not be my favorite game I have ever play but it showed me that GW still had a lot to offer the hobby, and still is willing to pioneer new concepts. I am so excited to see what 8th has in store! 
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Mar 30, 2017 17:53
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TKIY posted:Come on now, in KoW war you are tracking whole units who have bases touching and homogenous weapon options. In 40K/AoS you are tracking individual models each with their own weapon selections.
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Mar 30, 2017 17:52
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Deino posted:The manager at my old GW had a very selective policy "Is there a unit entry for coffee mugs in the Space Marine Codex? No? Take it off the table." and yet no one critiques his my little pony army. curious...
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Mar 30, 2017 17:52
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Chill la Chill posted:For some reason, people are fine with standardized sword/arrow/spear but when it comes to SF, we nerds get really mad if our laser cannons aren't different from our missile launchers and plasma guns and rail guns. Infinity is really guilty of this too and most of the complexity of its rule system is the fact that somebody thought it was a great idea to have 30 different versions of "space gun" and 5 versions of parachutes. I hope the scrappers game just has a basic single/semi/auto ranged weapon with pinpoint/AOE heavy weapon. And even then people will cry about the need to differentiate pistols from rifles instead of treating pistols as CQC as they should be because lol if you think you're winning a shootout with a pistol. I'm not sure what the cause of it is, but you're definitely on the right path pointing out that the people who really get upset by it are usually playing scifi games. I'm never going to remember everything my opponent has brought or what special equipment or rules a unit has. I don't mind asking and being reminded. I just assume that this is going to be part of the experience. Sure, there are certain things like a unit of archers should definitely look like they can shoot or a unit of knights should have some kind of mount, but otherwise the sky is the limit. It takes literally a fraction of a second to say, "Those cats on pogo sticks are heavy cavalry with Thunderous Charge (2), right?" To me this all comes back to the fact that I don't think people who play GW games actually want to talk to or interact with their opponents. Like a big selling point of AoS is that you only need to know the rules for your own models. He'll roll his dice, you'll roll your dice, and you never need to discuss how you got to the numbers you got to. These are people who claim to want a narrative experience in their games and yet can't be bothered to explain or ask who is going where and doing what and why.
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Mar 30, 2017 17:53
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berzerkmonkey posted:This. This is why people tend to not enjoy playing games with stand-ins and counts-as models. Yeah, it sucks that you went all out on the generic female only Space Nazis Kickstarter and don't want to buy from GW, but I don't want to have to constantly ask what your models are supposed to represent. It's even worse in a skirmish game where each model has a different loadout - "Oh that model with the pistol and knife? He's actually equipped with a jetpack, heavy laser cannon, and terrain ignoring tracks instead of legs." how do you play epic without subbing models Chill la Chill posted:For some reason, people are fine with standardized sword/arrow/spear but when it comes to SF, we nerds get really mad if our laser cannons aren't different from our missile launchers and plasma guns and rail guns. Infinity is really guilty of this too and most of the complexity of its rule system is the fact that somebody thought it was a great idea to have 30 different versions of "space gun" and 5 versions of parachutes. I hope the scrappers game just has a basic single/semi/auto ranged weapon with pinpoint/AOE heavy weapon. And even then people will cry about the need to differentiate pistols from rifles instead of treating pistols as CQC as they should be because lol if you think you're winning a shootout with a pistol. This is definitely one of the weirder accusations, since my experience of, and what I hear from other people playing, Infinity is that generally proxying is fine so long as you're clear what's what and are okay with reminding someone, especially since like half the weapon loadouts don't have models.
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Mar 30, 2017 17:55
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TKIY posted:Come on now, in KoW war you are tracking whole units who have bases touching and homogenous weapon options. In 40K/AoS you are tracking individual models each with their own weapon selections. I guess I don't see a huge difference. In something like 40k you still have squads with coherency rules. It's not like me proxying different models means it's impossible to tell what units grouped together are a squad or aren't a squad. It's not like I'm suggesting that the unit be represented by pennies. If it's a squad of dudes with armor and space man guns, then the models should look basically like that. If one model in the squad is a leader or sergeant than that should be modeled or marked in an obvious way. If there's a heavy weapon or special weapon than that model should be carrying a different gun. But even if we were playing 40k with real GW models, I'm not going to give a poo poo if the flamer is actually being used as a plasma gun so long as my opponent isn't trying to hide that fact. The game hasn't been ruined for me because a gun was proxied. Obviously everything is easier when it's what it's supposed to be, but this isn't some insane hurdle to get over. Like I said, you either are interested in playing the game or not. If you need more excuses not to play, that's on you. I've got models, they're painted to a decent standard, and I'm happy to play the game of your choice. If my models prohibit you from engaging with the narrative or setting or rules or whatever, so be it. I'll play with someone who doesn't care as much. Saint Drogo posted:and many (actually most now) KoW models and units have no actual models so of course they manage, they have to Yeah, but this was true for the vast majority of miniatures games for a long time. Miniatures gaming is lot more than GW and PP and Mantic. People forget that GW is the exception when it comes to actually having models for their army lists and even in the past people playing GW games just used whatever they had available. I get why GW has rules about what can be used in a GW store. Even Mantic does this on their open days. But when the players do this on their own, to me that's when the game starts being more about corporate brand loyalty than any kind of a hobby.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:04
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nopantsjack posted:AoS got a couple things right: Well, AoS is a new system starting a new mythos from scratch. People didn't let it grow, like everything it needs time to do so. Hence the huge clamour of "it's shallow". It WAS. Things are getting into shape. Yes, I follow it quite closely. It left behind most of the Tolkienesque inspiration, for good or bad. Currently 40k has the background that we currently love, but it was not always like this. It also grew and evolved. And like we've seen these last 3 months it still does. For better or worse. And is it really more generic then the old world? Is it really more generic than armoured dudes in space shooting space bugs? The devil is in the details. We can have free rules on a box. People shop with the eyes first. They like the look of a unit. When I saw the Dark Angels I thought wow they do look awesome. Robes and stuff very monastic. Then I read the fluff. And lost interest. And nowadays you can access the fluff pretty easily. You got lexicanum and other wikis. 4chan if you are into it. You buy a box, have some games, and like the feel of the army, you buy the book with artwork, fluff, additional missions, or formations. We already have the green vs red in the starter set. They bring a small amount of info about the armies. If you want more you go look for it.(DA Vs CSM) For example, if I were eyeing some Tzaangors for AoS, so i went to the store downloaded the rules and got a feel of how the army plays. I don't need to buy the book to know how should i use this one or that one unit. But I'm losing on fluff, artwork, formations, relics, and what not without the book. If I want more I'll buy the book. Simple. And if I want to play a couple of games with a friend, he does not need the book to check the rules for a couple of units.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:05
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Moola posted:*having a friendly conversation with a fellow ham during a game* That Brent, he's a card.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:08
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spectralent posted:how do you play epic without subbing models The post wasn't about people letting others use proxies. It was about the problem arising in the first place due to the myriad of unnecessary weapons options bloat leading to that. Missile launchers and flamethrowers are the same. They are both AOE weapons that cause massive destruction on a local level. The range should be the only thing different about the two.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:08
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I generally don't mind subbing weapons or whatever, or having one-off models from a different range/company (especially to replace the dreadknight) as long as the points were paid and you let me know in advance. And I haven't come across many players who take issue with that, or the occasional proxy when someone's testing something out. What gets tiring is when you drop an entire army of proxies, so now this tank is actually this other flyer and these large dudes are actually a unit of bikes and this other dude who looks like them is a unit of jump dudes and this other unit is this thing. Then tracking and remembering what's supposed to be what becomes a chore, particularly if the models are very visually dissimilar to what they're supposed to be and especially if I'm not really familiar with the army and its rules to begin with. You can yell "IT'S JUST A GAME" to that all you want but having to memorize an entire army's worth of substitutions isn't super fun. I'm not saying I wouldn't play against it, at least once or twice, but it's definitely a chore unless they've gone to great effort to make it obvious what everything is supposed to be.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:09
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TheChirurgeon posted:I generally don't mind subbing weapons or whatever, or having one-off models from a different range/company (especially to replace the dreadknight) as long as the points were paid and you let me know in advance. And I haven't come across many players who take issue with that, or the occasional proxy when someone's testing something out. I don't disagree with this at all and I basically said as much in my above post. If someone wants to take a bike squadron and not use the official models, or are playing a game where there are none, then they should make the effort to proxy with something that is visually obvious or clever enough that I'm not going to forget what it was.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:15
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Atlas Hugged posted:I don't disagree with this at all and I basically said as much in my above post. If someone wants to take a bike squadron and not use the official models, or are playing a game where there are none, then they should make the effort to proxy with something that is visually obvious or clever enough that I'm not going to forget what it was. Even then, I'd probably draw the line at poo poo like using coffee mugs as drop pods. Hell, I'd rather you use a paper template of a drop pod than a coffee mug. But part of that is because I put a lot of work into making terrain and a table that looks good to play on and it annoys me when poo poo that is just straight up a coffee mug gets dropped on there. Now if we're playing on someone's floor or a pool table or something then I care a whole lot less
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Mar 30, 2017 18:26
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Broken Record Talk posted:Well, AoS is a new system starting a new mythos from scratch. People didn't let it grow, like everything it needs time to do so. Like with tacos hard and soft, the question becomes why not both? A case for free rules is that it allows kits to be released on a more varied schedule. Not having to tie a kit release to a campaign or a codex update would allow GW to release a kit when it's "finished" or to add support to a flagging product line with a shorter run up. Following that tack, it could allow for more kit bash units like the Razorback Rikarius, which would be a sort of soft update that might pull more sales as well for older kits. The secondary plus is assuming GW's ability to keep the rules updated, a seemingly fair amount of hobbyist clamor for balanced rules, and a set living rules would help that. There's also a tertiary bonus. When the rules first released for the Skyhammer Annihilation Force there was much grumbling about the pay-to-win nature of the bundle, the strength of the rules notwithstanding, it was frustrating to me personally because I had multiple of those kits already, which became a moot point days later because the rules did end up being released. Which brings me to why even with free rules, GW should still produce physical copies of stuff. Hard copies have the chance to be worthwhile pieces of the game worth owning on their own. Sure I've got digital codecies and rules books to use on my iPad, but I own physical copies too. I rather enjoy flipping through my 6th ed Rulebook and just reading random bits and pieces, the Crusade of Fire is helping me write out a campaign, and the Battle Missions book for scenarios (thank you again Gar!). One day I'll own the complete Horus Heresy, and hopefully updated Badab Books. So when Angels of Death released I went that day to my local GW and bought a copy. Was it for the rules? Partially. The reality is one day this game may not be played or supported anymore. The world changes, and things that seem like they'll always be around suddenly aren't. So I'm doing what I can to make sure my army can always be played. So that the history of that army can be read, and the art seen. One day my nephews will have kids, and who knows if GW will exist into those days, but with luck, my Grand Nephews will be able to play a game much like their Grunkle did by opening up one of his storage boxes and finding a massive stack of marines, a bunch of books, dice and play aids (though they'll have to hope their Graunty packed away her foul xenos, because I won't be). So if once a year GW released a codex style book of all the rules released and updated for that year with a bunch of fluff and art to support it, I'd buy it, every single year, for as many years as they made it.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:29
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Tallboys make the best drop pods, obviously. Just make sure the label faces the camera for the Epic Battle Report.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:30
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I absolutely agree. Them giving us a basically free game with literally free rules for all my old models was really awesome! It may not be my favorite game I have ever play but it showed me that GW still had a lot to offer the hobby, and still is willing to pioneer new concepts. People who enjoyed having their old game thrown in the trash while GW allowed them to play the new bad game with their armies rules replaced by bad jokes are probably gonna love 8th to be fair.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:30
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Atlas Hugged posted:I guess I don't see a huge difference. In something like 40k you still have squads with coherency rules. It's not like me proxying different models means it's impossible to tell what units grouped together are a squad or aren't a squad. It's not like I'm suggesting that the unit be represented by pennies. If it's a squad of dudes with armor and space man guns, then the models should look basically like that. If one model in the squad is a leader or sergeant than that should be modeled or marked in an obvious way. If there's a heavy weapon or special weapon than that model should be carrying a different gun. But even if we were playing 40k with real GW models, I'm not going to give a poo poo if the flamer is actually being used as a plasma gun so long as my opponent isn't trying to hide that fact. The game hasn't been ruined for me because a gun was proxied. Lol do you really not see a difference? I can't tell if it is because it was your game comparison or if you are just that big of a loving retard? Rhetorical question by the way, I don't need anymore of your snarky and misguided replies honestly, especially from someone who thinks because your Space Marine is modeled with a Heavy Bolter that I am even going to attempt let you roll it as a lascannon. Ha get the gently caress out of here with that. Are you really that loving poor that you can't log onto your eBay and shuffle through your "Watch List" full of 25% off Hot Topic apparel to purchase some extra Heavy support Marines to switch out? nopantsjack posted:People who enjoyed having their old game thrown in the trash while GW allowed them to play the new bad game with their armies rules replaced by bad jokes are probably gonna love 8th to be fair. Wrong.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:30
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Cat Face Joe posted:one tournament i had to use a large marker for one of my giant robots cause i accidentally left the giant robot foam layer at home. no one cared cause its a game who the gently caress cares u nerds spectralent posted:how do you play epic without subbing models
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Mar 30, 2017 18:31
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I've personally not a problem with third party models, as people have said there's quite a few cases where a third party produces a nicer sculpt than GW (especially some of their older models). I do have more of an issue with models that are questionable in what unit they're being used for, more so for models that aren't in the same sort of scale - the old "Why is your GW Daemon Prince larger than your third party Bloodthirster?" type of thing! Although I do have non-GW models at home, none of them are for GW games or any of my armies. I've always been fortunate that I've enough hobby cash to purchase the more expensive models GW and the armies I collect, I fundamentally like all of the GW model range. However I'd much rather play an opponent who's spent a bit of time and effort with their third party army than one who's spent no time on a grey-plastic GW army. I think I speak for everyone here when I say I draw the line at recasts though 
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Mar 30, 2017 18:32
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TKIY posted:I fundamentally like all of the GW model range. oh my gosh i'm so sorry i didn't know things were this bad for you
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Mar 30, 2017 18:35
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