|
If they have lots of money and they live comfortably, why would they care about the lowest dregs of society? We live in a world where there's a family of billionaires who got their money from a company whose employees have to go on food stamps to survive. The rich saying "gently caress the poor" isn't a far out scifi concept.
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 02:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 10:40 |
|
|
If robots have taken over all the jobs in the supply chain manufactured goods become very cheap - as long as you have the natural resources it won't cost much to turn it into things. The only way the scarcity in the Expanse makes sense is if there is not enough resources to produce things from. I guess Earth tried to solve that by turning to resources in space - until some Martians decided to hog half of it because they wanted an ocean view. loving Martians.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 02:47
|
|
|
Cojawfee posted:If they have lots of money and they live comfortably, why would they care about the lowest dregs of society? Increases to:
quote:We live in a world where there's a family of billionaires who got their money from a company whose employees have to go on food stamps to survive. The rich saying "gently caress the poor" isn't a far out scifi concept. Yeah, I'm just saying the actual argument is besides the point. It all comes down to, "They want the poor impoverished." Too much attention is paid to the bullshit window dressing. Too little attention is paid to the raw classism behind so much of it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 02:56
|
|
|
They don't want them impoverished, that implies it is their goal. They just don't care if they're impoverished.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 03:20
|
|
|
Can you really look at the Kochs and Paul Ryan and tell me their economically devastating policies are actually intended to work? Quite a few people only care about how much they have in relation to everyone else.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 03:28
|
|
|
Is there a middle class on Earth? If it is just people on basic and then the super rich, I could see them not caring about selling to the basics at all. Rich people want to buy expensive things because the things are expensive and they need something to spend their money on. Businesses could get by making products exclusively for the rich. No matter how much of a stimulus a basic gets, they won't be able to afford the super expensive items. There would be no incentive to give basics more money. There would be an incentive for middle class people running middle class businesses to want the basics to get more money, I suppose.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 03:30
|
|
|
That's not very persuasive. Us hoi polloi are immensely profitable to the rich. Capitalism is a game of upward capital accumulation. All our buying and selling of goods and services profits them. Anyone who likes money has incentive to desire a booming middle-class. Not that that's relevant. In The Expanse, it looks like resource scarcity and per-worker productivity are the issues.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 03:41
|
|
|
re-watched the latest ep and the scene where Amos beats the poo poo out of Chicken Boy... scary loving eyes, man. Amos is a dangerous dude.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 05:25
|
|
|
Accretionist posted:That's not very persuasive. Us hoi polloi are immensely profitable to the rich. Capitalism is a game of upward capital accumulation. All our buying and selling of goods and services profits them. Anyone who likes money has incentive to desire a booming middle-class. Yeah orthodox economics doesn't apply to earth in The Expanse, they plainly do not have enough resources to achieve a good standard of living for all 30 billion people. No amount of productivity gain through automation or space magic will help if you're resource constrained. Accretionist posted:Food stamps are excellent economic stimulus and you're basically describing food stamps. Those numbers change depending on the economy and how much money you're allocating to these things. It's not a static thing where you can grow your economy forever by taxing everything and giving people food stamps.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 05:33
|
|
|
But it's just about tops when you're suffering from sagging aggregate demand!
Accretionist fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Mar 31, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 05:58
|
|
|
Bates posted:If robots have taken over all the jobs in the supply chain manufactured goods become very cheap - as long as you have the natural resources it won't cost much to turn it into things. The only way the scarcity in the Expanse makes sense is if there is not enough resources to produce things from. I guess Earth tried to solve that by turning to resources in space - until some Martians decided to hog half of it because they wanted an ocean view. loving Martians. Plus even with Epstein drives, bringing resources to Earth from the asteroid belt is still going to be expensive. Part of these economic arguments (specifically automation) the authors answered by saying (paraphrased) "it's fiction, we need characters not mining robots".
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 06:18
|
|
|
I can't believe the future is the boot of capitalism stomping on the neck of humanity forever. It just doesn't match to anything I've seen!
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 06:23
|
|
|
Fidel Cuckstro posted:I can't believe the future is the boot of capitalism stomping on the neck of humanity forever. It just doesn't match to anything I've seen! the Expanse is an optimistic future, in that capitalism hasn't caused industrial civilization to collapse catastrophically.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 06:29
|
|
|
uber_stoat posted:the Expanse is an optimistic future, in that capitalism hasn't caused industrial civilization to collapse catastrophically. Agreed, despite the devastating impact of climate change the ocean Bobbie saw wasn't tinged red with the blood of the dead. It's the closest we deserve to Star Trek these days.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 06:32
|
|
|
Bates posted:If robots have taken over all the jobs in the supply chain manufactured goods become very cheap - as long as you have the natural resources it won't cost much to turn it into things. The only way the scarcity in the Expanse makes sense is if there is not enough resources to produce things from. I guess Earth tried to solve that by turning to resources in space - until some Martians decided to hog half of it because they wanted an ocean view. loving Martians. Yes, clearly the only reason for wealth inequality is that we need more resources from another space. *neoliberalism.txt*
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 07:05
|
|
|
Basic is funded by High Taxes on the Job Creators which is Killing Jobs. That's why everyone's unemployed and no one's making anything.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 07:30
|
|
|
Accretionist posted:Basic is funded by High Taxes on the Job Creators which is Killing Jobs. That's why everyone's unemployed and no one's making anything. Best username/post combo.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 07:33
|
|
|
Oh Maslow chat  The Errenwright confession; is it a fake out? Yeah, he handed over a lot of intel Adersevala (sp) didn't have, but I don't trust the bugger
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 08:23
|
|
|
Bates posted:If robots have taken over all the jobs in the supply chain manufactured goods become very cheap - as long as you have the natural resources it won't cost much to turn it into things. This is basically how Dredd has 99% unemployment.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 08:36
|
|
|
Comment: the scene in the latest episode where Alex is alone on the Rocinante, drinking tallboys, fiddling with his pistol, and listening to Country-Western songs is about as Texan as it gets. Speaking as a man who spends time with Texans, when left on their own, Texans will invariably end up drinking tallboys of PBR, wish they were Lone Stars, and playing the best of Conway Twitty or some such and singing along .
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 08:40
|
|
|
No need to use spoiler tags on stuff that's been aired.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 09:06
|
|
|
I wonder if we will ever see what life on Mars is like beyond some military training ground. It seems like Bobby was pretty shocked about living conditions in NYC beyond just what the propaganda has been telling her. Also, it seems like parts of the belt are actually nicer than that shanty town. Ceres/Ganymede (before the "conflict") seemed to still have some type of middle class. Of course, the belt clearly has its underclass, but there is probably more opportunity as well (Mars/Tycho/OPA all seem to be "hiring" from the belt). Also, it is implied there is still a "middle class" on Earth i.e people who actually do get some type of education but it is simply a mere fraction of what exists in current first world countries. Also, I am sure there are people who have/kept their "basic apartment" and aren't living on street. If anything Earth is basically a futuristic modern-day America with some terms changed. Only the relatively privilege get a chance at an unpaid internship already in the US (although unpaid internships as a Barista is taking it up a notch), and education/employment is also getting more difficult to find. Hell, the modern-day US still has a very limited amount of public housing, food stamps and other programs...they just generally suck. That said, I can see why Earthers want to get off planet, at least there is some future out there in space. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Mar 31, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 09:19
|
|
|
Imperialist welwallas in this thread! Any resources to ease the poverty of Earth will come from the belt. What they really need is 20 billion fewer people. You can redistribute all the wealth you like but Earth is not able to sustain that population.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 10:12
|
|
|
Need more self contained arcologies, like the system on Ganymede.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 11:14
|
|
|
Daktari posted:The Errenwright confession; is it a fake out? Yeah, he handed over a lot of intel Adersevala (sp) didn't have, but I don't trust the bugger To be fair the show has been at pains to present him coming to the realisation that he has been dropped like so much flaming dog poo, and that Eros made him reassess his priorities. He is cutting a deal as best he can. There is zero chance that the 2nd in command of Earth would be put on trial for anything during a time of heightened tension/war with Mars. Oh and Caliban is the son of Sycorax, a deformed child (possibly the counter character of Puck). Wikipedia "The Tempest" by William Shakespeare posted:After his island becomes occupied by Prospero and his daughter Miranda, Caliban is forced into servitude. While he is referred to as a calvaluna or mooncalf, a freckled monster, he is the only human inhabitant of the island that is otherwise "not honour'd with a human shape" (Prospero, I.2.283). In some traditions he is depicted as a wild man, or a deformed man, or a beast man, or sometimes a mix of fish and man. Caliban is a Cambion, the half-human son of Sycorax by (according to Prospero, though this is not confirmed) a devil. Banished from Algiers, Sycorax was left on the isle, pregnant with Caliban, and died before Prospero's arrival. The name refers to the PM monster and how they make the monsters and I assume the attempted rape of Miranda was the attack on the Marines/Bobbie. That could make Bobbie Miranda in that analogy. Collateral fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Mar 31, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 13:25
|
|
|
I love this show, the politics, the strong female characters in positions of power, the hard sci if aspect compared to every other tv show. I didn't read the books, and I was kind of disappointed that even in hard sci, the main plot device is magical, but gently caress it, for more of Avasarala and Amos I'll put up with that bullshit. The railgun killing off the medic, losing Miller makes me happy the series isn't afraid of killing off what seem like main characters. Weeping somnambulist conference scene, I was already entranced by Avasrala, now I'm in love. Oh and the belter dialect can gently caress right off I can't stand it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 13:47
|
|
|
What's wrong with Belter creole?
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 14:03
|
|
|
I don't think alex was drunk I think that was some kind of energy drink and he's just REALLY bored/wired/sleep deprived. Plus, the droplets didn't look like beer, more like Space Jolt Cola or something.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 14:08
|
|
|
MA-Horus posted:I don't think alex was drunk Dude come on. Its beer. They even say so
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 14:19
|
|
|
On the cans? Jeez you guys have some sharp eyes, I couldn't see that. I'm perfectly ok with him being drunk too, just couldn't tell.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 15:03
|
|
|
vermin posted:Speaking of fitting 30,000,000,000 on one planet this video was pretty interesting. "Located within the city is a slum called Dharavi, which is an area only 2-point-seventeen square kilometres in size. If we think about that size and compare it to Central park in New York City, the Dharavi slum would only take up 64% of the same size, or not even 2/3 of the area" That might just be the worst sentence I've ever heard.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 15:05
|
|
|
Bates posted:If robots have taken over all the jobs in the supply chain manufactured goods become very cheap - as long as you have the natural resources it won't cost much to turn it into things. The only way the scarcity in the Expanse makes sense is if there is not enough resources to produce things from. I mean, even this isn't strictly true. If you've got sufficiently cheap energy then at some point you can start substituting that for other types of resources, even without magical replicator technology. Synthetic alternatives that might have been too hilariously inefficient and expensive before are suddenly reasonable, new methods of extraction open up so that now you can get at resources that were previously uneconomic, etc. It's kind of a problem with sci-fi settings like this in general - the fact that they're using something more efficient than regular old fusion means they're pretty much at post-scarcity already. Almost all problems of scarcity are really about energy generation and transport. Even carrying capacity problems tend to be about fresh water and biosphere food production limits, both of which can be trivially solved if you just throw more power at the problem. Not that any of this is a complaint about the show or the setting. Post-scarcity societies aren't super interesting for sci-fi unless you're willing to go all the way with the concept and make it your central theme.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 16:44
|
|
|
I wanted to write that post. Rare earths aside, a society with the genetic engineering to grow plants on Ganymede, plus the energy availability of fusion power is going to be able to generate a lot of output. Like you could have 100 story farms with a bunch of grow lights, run evaporation desalinization and pump in enough CO2 and plant hormones (synthesized with your nearly infinite energy) to optimize your production to a degree that would be a foreign to us as the Green Revolution would be to an 1800s farmer.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 16:54
|
|
|
Here's a question I don't remember being specifically answered by the books: If Earth kinda sucks so much, then why don't more people emigrate to the Moon, Mars, The Belt, Saturnian and Jovian moons (well maybe just Ganymede because lol radiation)? To maybe answer my own question, is it because all those places only want people with valuable skills? (Marketable skills in the case of megacorps.) Like how Holden is only out there because he was in the UN Space Navy and how Amos is only out there because (I forget how) he picked up engineering/technical know-how (and is actually really smart)? But to argue against my own possible answer: Wouldn't those places need lower levels of labor? We've seen bartenders. But also janitorial and just overall generally what's considered lower level labor? And to counter that: Maybe those requirements are already usually met by people born or living in those places? Collateral posted:Oh and Caliban is the son of Sycorax, a deformed child (possibly the counter character of Puck). Yeah...I already mentioned this pages and pages ago.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 17:57
|
|
|
Longbaugh01 posted:Here's a question I don't remember being specifically answered by the books: If Earth kinda sucks so much, then why don't more people emigrate to the Moon, Mars, The Belt, Saturnian and Jovian moons (well maybe just Ganymede because lol radiation)? You could say the same thing for internal regions of Earth. The only way the UN makes sense is with internal movement restrictions. Your birth nation may not be sovereign and own nukes anymore, but that doesn't mean everyone can squat in Malibu and demand basic there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 18:04
|
|
|
I'm assuming they have some form of hukou system in place.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 18:16
|
|
|
The only way it would make any sense is for them to move all the basics to the midwest and places with lots of open land that most people don't want to move to. Or maybe allow people already living in nice areas to go on basic there if there is room. No one is allowed to move to a nice area and go on basic. Anyone they don't have room for gets moved somewhere else.
Cojawfee fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Mar 31, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 18:19
|
|
|
Longbaugh01 posted:Here's a question I don't remember being specifically answered by the books: If Earth kinda sucks so much, then why don't more people emigrate to the Moon, Mars, The Belt, Saturnian and Jovian moons (well maybe just Ganymede because lol radiation)? With everyone on Basic, Earth would get to control the price of movement away from Earth. It sounds like the main way people get to escape is through being fabulously wealthy or work visas. The government (with a little help from megacorporations) decides the price of travel and who gets which work contracts, so in that way Earth is the solar system's staffing agency. The people already living out on the Belt can always be replenished by Earthers who're willing to work somewhat cheaper. Companies living out on the Belt probably have to choose between accepting inexperienced cheap Earth laborers or cutting costs by any means necessary to afford vetted OPA workers who're already there which results in dangerous working conditions. At least that's how I see it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 18:34
|
|
|
Man, it's gonna be a long week isn't it?
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 18:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 10:40 |
|
|
counterfeitsaint posted:Man, it's gonna be a long week isn't it? It always is with this thread.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 19:31
|
|