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When I initially imagineered the Kim head it appeared to me like the Zardoz head, but instead of guns, Little Debbie wrappers and empty courvoisier bottles pour from the mouth.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:06
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tadashi posted:There also isn't enough evidence that the populace in North Korea wants to be "liberated". I'm not convinced that every citizen thinks that Un is some sort of God King but there also isn't evidence to the contrary? The scenario that includes the refugee crisis basically involves a breakdown of control on internal movement, and even if people don't intend to cross the border when they leave home, at some point, word's gonna spread that people who do cross the border are getting fed by China/SK in refugee camps, because the alternative is a literal starving and angry mob pillaging the countryside. ' The alternative is that at the very start, China invades at the behest of one of the army factions, militarily occupies and feeds the country, sets up a puppet regime amenable to their interests, and then withdraws a few years later, once the threat of collapse abates. As for how people think of the Kim family, Bradley K. Martin in Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader relays the account of a defector who estimates that roughly 10% of the country are true believers and 90% do what they need to do to get by. It's all anecdotal, but he mentions that it mirrors what he saw during the collapse of the USSR, and I'd say it's as good of an estimate as you're gonna get.
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Mar 28, 2017 21:14
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To the question posed by the op: The DPRK is bad.
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Mar 28, 2017 22:02
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Scionix posted:"I loving LOVE THE COLORS TEAL, AND PINK" - Pyongyang architect, guy This is why it's bad.
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Mar 28, 2017 22:04
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Azathoth posted:The alternative is that at the very start, China invades at the behest of one of the army factions, militarily occupies and feeds the country, sets up a puppet regime amenable to their interests, and then withdraws a few years later, once the threat of collapse abates. Why are people assuming that China is capable of pulling this off badda bing badda boom More likely they'd get stuck in a lovely quagmire for years/decades like the USSR and USA have when they've tried to do the same thing elsewhere
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Mar 28, 2017 22:06
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There is zero evidence that the North Korean state is on the precipice of collapse.
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Mar 28, 2017 22:12
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Fojar38 posted:Why are people assuming that China is capable of pulling this off badda bing badda boom Pener Kropoopkin posted:There is zero evidence that the North Korean state is on the precipice of collapse. The scenarios that I'm talking about above that involve a disordered collapse would generally be because of fast-moving events related to an internal power struggle and/or the untimely death of Kim Jong-un (not necessarily suggesting assassination either). Right now, Kim seems to have successfully consolidated his power, but who really knows how secure he is. Even assuming he is secure from that kind of threat, he's one car accident or cancer diagnosis from throwing the country into chaos. In a country where control of the military is the only real mechanism of power, I don't think it's far-fetched for a succession crisis to turn into a military conflict between competing power centers within the military, and if that happens, not only are things going to move very quickly, all the players involved are gonna be presented with a set of really bad choices, and they're gonna have to choose quickly what they do.
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Mar 28, 2017 22:38
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Ace of Baes posted:Unless someone on this forum is like a Korean-Chinese history scholar there's about a 0% chance that anyone here (including me) knows the best way to approach the North Korea dilemma. the easiest way is to drop a nuke on NK. not the best mind
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Mar 28, 2017 22:49
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Ace of Baes posted:Unless someone on this forum is like a Korean-Chinese history scholar there's about a 0% chance that anyone here (including me) knows the best way to approach the North Korea dilemma. the world should surrender unconditionally to juche immediatel;y
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Mar 28, 2017 23:12
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jarofpiss posted:the world should surrender unconditionally to juche immediatel;y more like douch-eh 
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Mar 28, 2017 23:43
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Woozy posted:Liberals run crying to NATO about socialist states like this, but Western "leftists" run crying to NATO about socialists states like this. Trust me it's different! I'm a Western left-liberal, AMA.
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Mar 28, 2017 23:55
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Jeb! Repetition posted:I'm a Western left-liberal, AMA. What for? You don't know anything.
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Mar 29, 2017 02:28
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Azathoth posted:As for how people think of the Kim family, Bradley K. Martin in Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader relays the account of a defector who estimates that roughly 10% of the country are true believers and 90% do what they need to do to get by. It's all anecdotal, but he mentions that it mirrors what he saw during the collapse of the USSR, and I'd say it's as good of an estimate as you're gonna get. i know im gettin old, i forgot about that book i wrote!
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Mar 29, 2017 13:36
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i'm sure the book titled "under the loving care of the fatherly leader" has absolutely no truck for orientalist stereotypes
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Mar 30, 2017 15:58
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R. Guyovich posted:i'm sure the book titled "under the loving care of the fatherly leader" has absolutely no truck for orientalist stereotypes It really doesn't. It's an accessible, if occasionally dense, book and, if memory serves, the title is from a piece of propaganda about either Kim Il-Sung or Kim Jong-il. Obviously, anything about North Korea needs to be taken with a grain of salt because literally every possible source is chock full of bias, but I don't know of a better book in English for someone who wants to know about the history of North Korea up through Kim Jong-il.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:09
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R. Guyovich posted:dprk isn't starving and hasn't been since the 90s what this doesnt account for is a) distribution of grain once produced, and b) the 400 kcal of non-grain (ie protein) per day per person required (versus the 1640 kcal of grain that is close to being met). so, i think it's fair to say that they are doing pretty well with food production (many prosperous countries dont produce nearly that much of their own food), esp given their mountainous geography and many hurdles. but that doesnt mean theyre not still food insecure, with some segments of the population possibly "starving." This story posted like a page ago does back up that people are hungry. and it's being exasperated by all these sanctions http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/report-sanctions-disrupt-humanitarian-aid-north-korea-46340596 quote:The report issued this week by the U.N.'s senior resident official in Pyongyang said sanctions are inadvertently hindering legitimate operations on the ground and have indirectly contributed to a "radical decline" in donations it said are badly needed by millions of North Korean women and children.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:19
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R. Guyovich posted:i'm sure the book titled "under the loving care of the fatherly leader" has absolutely no truck for orientalist stereotypes Here comes Homework Explainer with the liberal identity politics 
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Mar 30, 2017 16:25
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Fast Luck posted:ok so that link says that it's really hard to get any information on the dprk but that when they got food assistance during the 90s famine they were required to do these reports on their food production, and that those seem to be a reliable source of data. And they show the dprk's grain output is at 95% of that required to meet their peoples needs. that's all correct and the article i posted goes into some detail on the ramifications of sanctions. my intro was glib but the overall point is things are not getting worse there and the days of the arduous march have long since passed
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Mar 30, 2017 16:29
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Sanctions are bad y'all.
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Mar 31, 2017 00:34
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*extremely margaret thatcher voice*Pener Kropoopkin posted:Sanctions are bad y'all.
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Mar 31, 2017 01:26
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Fallen Hamprince posted:*extremely margaret thatcher voice* Who can forget how many South Africans starved to death from the dreadful sanctions regime lmao
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Mar 31, 2017 02:00
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R. Guyovich posted:but the overall point is things are not getting worse Of course. They're at rock bottom.
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Mar 31, 2017 13:58
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No this was rock bottom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine They've recovered a lot since then but it's very hard for them to be self-sufficient in terms of food production quote:Only about 20% of North Korea's mountainous terrain is arable land. Much of the land is only frost-free for six months, allowing only one crop per year. The country has never been self-sufficient in food, and many experts considered it unrealistic to try to be.
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Mar 31, 2017 14:05
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Fast Luck posted:They've recovered a lot since then but it's very hard for them to be self-sufficient in terms of food production
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Mar 31, 2017 14:12
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Budzilla posted:Of course. They're at rock bottom. thats the central african republic
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Mar 31, 2017 14:12
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Fast Luck posted:No this was rock bottom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine *coins ideology revolving entirely around economic self-sufficiency*
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Mar 31, 2017 15:09
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Fallen Hamprince posted:*coins ideology revolving entirely around economic self-sufficiency* *uses your hegemonic global superpower status to starve as many innocent people as possible*
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Mar 31, 2017 15:48
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We're starving those people for their own good, otherwise communism might starve them
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Mar 31, 2017 15:51
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Fiction posted:*uses your hegemonic global superpower status to starve as many innocent dictatorships of nuclear weapons as possible*
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Mar 31, 2017 15:59
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Does the DPRK have some technology to make nukes out of bags brown rice?
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Mar 31, 2017 16:01
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They are believed to have nukes in the most technical sense, I think they're really small baby nukes that'd need to be driven up to the target in a semi-truck, but they do have them.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:03
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Psycho Society posted:Does the DPRK have some technology to make nukes out of bags brown rice? fiction is whining that the sanctions targeting nk's nuclear program indirectly affect food aid (which nk is reliant upon) because of banking restrictions and the added noteriety which makes donors less willing to give. the US and other western programs still provide food aid though, which is certainly just part of their master plan to starve the north to death homoeopathically
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Mar 31, 2017 16:04
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Fallen Hamprince posted:fiction is whining that the sanctions targeting nk's nuclear program indirectly affect food aid (which nk is reliant upon) because of banking restrictions and the added noteriety which makes donors less willing to give. the US and other western programs still provide food aid though, which is certainly just part of their master plan to starve the north to death homoeopathically Nobody involved with NK's nuclear program is truly affected by sanctions on food aid. It's purely meant as collective punishment.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:08
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they should use their nukes on hamprince imo
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Mar 31, 2017 16:08
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Fiction posted:Nobody involved with NK's nuclear program is truly affected by sanctions on food aid. It's purely meant as collective punishment. the sanctions aren't on food aid ABC News posted:"While international sanctions imposed on DPRK clearly exempt humanitarian activities, they have unintentionally caused disruptions to humanitarian operations," it said. but whatever, it's a free country and u can continue to believe that amerikkka made selling north korea hamburgers illegal if u want
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Mar 31, 2017 16:11
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Fallen Hamprince posted:the sanctions aren't on food aid yeah all they did is stop people outside of NK from sending their family and friends money to buy anything they need on the black markets, no prob lol
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Mar 31, 2017 16:22
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They deserved it for being descendants of people who lived in the North when we tried to institute puppet elections ignoring the UN in the 50s, though. I'm sure there's a good reason for it.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:22
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Fiction posted:yeah all they did is stop people outside of NK from sending their family and friends money to buy anything they need on the black markets, no prob lol lmao just admit u were wrong dude, this is just sad
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Mar 31, 2017 16:31
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the "humanitarian exemptions" are straight bullshit and there are multiple sources in here saying so
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Mar 31, 2017 16:32
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North Korea totally wouldn't be starving if only the imperialist west would let the vast North Korean expect community wire money back to their families to buy black market grain, sorry ur too dumb to figure that out lib
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Mar 31, 2017 16:33
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