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That Old Tree posted:I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread about making Wisdom more like Harmony, where each end is really just a different extreme of an overarching character aspect, instead of a scale of "bad" to "good", with an attendant modification to some key mechanic. I find this idea appearling. Are there more fleshed out house rules to this effect somewhere, or suggestions along those lines, for Wisdom and other "morality" tracks, that I could look at? It would probably have to start with inventing an entirely new core question for Mage. Basic assumption is, in Mage, 'You probably can, but should you?' which is why Wisdom is the mechanic that line uses for Morality. Werewolf and similar lines can play the 'slide closer to one extreme of your dual nature' thing because those lines have a dual nature. Mage doesn't. So I mean, what role do you see your new mechanic playing? I don't think I can answer that. 'More magic - - less magic' seems the only obvious dichotomy but its a stupid one because in a game about magic you don't want to be the idiot who doesn't use magic.
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Mar 31, 2017 09:35
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Enola Gay-For-Pay posted:does anyone have any sort of cheat sheets or quick references for Demon?
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Mar 31, 2017 10:13
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Consider Cover: It doesn't measure how much you've misbehaved and now the GM is going to take your character sheet away, instead it's a resource, something that you can and are expected to expend, sometimes even completely -- and you don't expend it like this just by making a series of risky decisions, you can also do it by consciously deciding to blow it all up as a last resort -- in which case you're extensively, and flavorfully, rewarded in the mechanics for doing so. It isn't bought with the same XP as everything else. Technically there's still an opportunity cost in that time spent gathering cover XP is time not spent gathering conventional XP but when soul pacts and angel-jacking enter the picture the trade-off is very slight; you can rebuild your entire "morality" stat with one good roll, and the process of getting to that one roll probably got you a bunch of regular XP anyways. Thematically, it represents the external consequences of playing with fire. A zero-cover Demon isn't an evil or crazy person, just a reckless or boldly calculating one who now has to deal with the problems their decisions have caused. Now consider Wisdom: At the upper end, it gives you mechanical benefits for playing an impossibly pure, boring boy scout. At the lower end, it turns you into an NPC for misbehaving. Most of the suggested wisdom sins at 3 or less are stuff that a player just shouldn't be doing at the table unless they're deliberately trying to retire their character, which doesn't really need a mechanical system. You might end up in situations where you "spend" Wisdom tactically, but it means playing against the theme and even the mechanics seemed designed to discourage it -- but also, you can bypass this via Inuring to some extent. Not only is it bought with the same experience as everything else, meaning that you're basically punishing small infractions with an XP tax, but even worse, you have to replace your Obsession -- I see the flavor reason why this would be, it's all about turning away from your myopic pursuits and recentering yourself, but it also means crossing off a cool motivation and associated mechanics from your character sheet and replacing them with "grind merit points." I've already talked about what a thematic mess it is, but to restate it more clearly -- Wisdom ensures that the best way to control the magic which is your only window out of the prison that is the Fallen World, is to be a model prisoner. That's boring, dumb, and counter-revolutionary. 
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 10:41
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I think you could turn the Mage morality stat into "Paradox", have it work kind of like Torment from Demon: the Fallen, and have a pretty sweet system. Alternatively, you could even make Mana the 1-10 morality stat rather than the 10-75 resource stat, such that you risk points of mana on big workings rather than spend them and have to do a lot of work to collect and store pure supernal energy because of how rare it is in the fallen world.
Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 10:44
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Great. Now I want to rework Wisdom on top of everything else I'm poking at 
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Mar 31, 2017 10:49
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Part of the trouble with coming up with Wisdom replacements is most of them are already covered by other systems in Mage. Like, the idea that Paradox is something that adheres to you rather than just being a case-by-case consequence of dangerous spells is cool, but if you start creating trade-offs and incentives based on that you just end up with redundant systems for Paradox. Anything about "closeness to the Supernal" or "how resistant are you to the Lie" just sounds like Gnosis, and so on.
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Mar 31, 2017 10:53
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Considering that paradox as its currently implemented is rather light handed there's little room to work with for making Wisdom do something to deal with that. Though if you start making things need more Reach as a funhaver tax then there might be space to do something interesting with.
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Mar 31, 2017 11:03
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For your consideration, nuWW's new guidelines for fan creations and activities. Apparently Exalted's not covered in there; anyone else see other oversights?
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Mar 31, 2017 14:11
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I've already talked about what a thematic mess it is, but to restate it more clearly -- Wisdom ensures that the best way to control the magic which is your only window out of the prison that is the Fallen World, is to be a model prisoner. That's boring, dumb, and counter-revolutionary. I think that's supposed to be the point--one of the books says that a not-insignificant chunk of the Silver Ladder thinks Wisdom is bullshit, which is probably why their Magisters tend to be crazy and the Guardians keep needing to shank them. It's supposed to be something you're inclined to lose if you want to do big things and strain against the chains that bind you. Not defending the system, just pointing out that it's working as-intended there. Edit: You're effectively making the argument a number of thearchs make in-setting with this statement. Ironslave fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 14:53
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taichara posted:For your consideration, nuWW's new guidelines for fan creations and activities. Well, nuWW probably doesn't care about Exalted, that's more OPP's purview.
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Mar 31, 2017 14:58
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Ironslave posted:Edit: You're effectively making the argument a number of thearchs make in-setting with this statement. Tuxedo Catfish is literally an irl thearch
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Mar 31, 2017 16:59
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I've been working on my first real Mage character for a 2E game my friend's looking to do, and thought it'd be a fun exercise to remake a Requiem PC of mine as a Mage, in addition to getting more practice in this system that's uh, just a touch more complicated than Requiem. Anyway, when I mentioned this to my partner, he briefly mused that there was a non-zero chance said character would end up in the Seers. I was skeptical but decided to give the Seers content another look, if only to prove him wrong. Long story short, that sheet came together very quickly - Ministry, pylon and all, and in addition I was very disappointed to find that you cannot in fact buy a Seers of the Throne t-shirt from OP's Redbubble store. 
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Mar 31, 2017 19:02
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morcant posted:I've been working on my first real Mage character for a 2E game my friend's looking to do, and thought it'd be a fun exercise to remake a Requiem PC of mine as a Mage, in addition to getting more practice in this system that's uh, just a touch more complicated than Requiem. Anyway, when I mentioned this to my partner, he briefly mused that there was a non-zero chance said character would end up in the Seers. I was skeptical but decided to give the Seers content another look, if only to prove him wrong. I expressed my dissatisfaction with the lack of Seer t-shirts in this week's reddit AMA, Ian and Mike (OPP's internet / merch person and Mage's Art Director) said they're gonna have a look for the rune's image file and sort it out soon. Join the Seers! Why settle for the losing side?
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Mar 31, 2017 20:43
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I would buy a Seers shirt the instant it's released.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:48
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Join the Seers! Why settle for the losing side? That's why you don't join the seers, fucker
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Mar 31, 2017 21:23
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Zikan posted:Tuxedo Catfish is literally an irl thearch full Ironslave posted:I think that's supposed to be the point--one of the books says that a not-insignificant chunk of the Silver Ladder thinks Wisdom is bullshit, which is probably why their Magisters tend to be crazy and the Guardians keep needing to shank them. It's supposed to be something you're inclined to lose if you want to do big things and strain against the chains that bind you. Obviously if you're going to have a morality stat that defines one of the various in-game moralities as objectively correct, it should be the one I like.  A better solution would be to have a "morality" stat that actually tracks something else completely, which every faction can point to and go "see? it just proves our point" even when they all say contradictory things.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:29
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On the note of Seers, I just read ''To the Strongest'' and found the lack of Seers and low incidence of Watchtowers when awakening pretty interesting. I always assumed that there'd always have been some kind of Seers, especially since the 2e book talks about Seers getting visions from their patron Exarch. Does the Seer book go into detail about the split from the Ladder or when and why the Exarchs started acting more directly?
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Mar 31, 2017 21:40
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One things the old 1E Imperial Mysteries talks about is the way that once Archmasters get their second taste of the Supernal the entire universe subtly changes so they no longer have a human history -- they exist, but they never existed. Maybe the Mage morality score should be something like "the more you use overt or powerful Magic, the more the Lie convinces people that you don't even exist." You are your magic, so whatever mechanism makes Sleepers forget that they witnessed magic includes forgetting that they witnessed you, and then ripples out to people who didn't witness it directly, and eventually to people who know you personally, until you have no one left in the world. You can use this to hide from the human authorities, and if you're totally dedicating your life to your Obsessions or fighting the Exarchs you might not care much, but it means you're cut off from normal relationships and from any resources you would normally get through people. It probably needs some refinement and in particular if it doesn't bite hard enough you could even extend it to other non-Ascended mages at very low values, but this both allows Seers to point as Thearchs as solipsistic yahoos, Thearchs to rage at the injustice of it all, Guardians to have a good reason to do what they do instead of basically being surrogate Wizard Police for the Seers, and so on.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:49
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Ironslave posted:I think that's supposed to be the point--one of the books says that a not-insignificant chunk of the Silver Ladder thinks Wisdom is bullshit, which is probably why their Magisters tend to be crazy and the Guardians keep needing to shank them. It's supposed to be something you're inclined to lose if you want to do big things and strain against the chains that bind you. This dovetails nicely with my conception of Wisdom as your connection to the rest of humanity. Losing Wisdom is a model of your character starting to see Sleepers (and eventually other Awakened) as less and less important in the face of their personal goals. Eventually, you stop viewing them as people with the same moral or cosmic importance as you but as things, or means to an end. Is it any wonder then that the Mages that have been kicking around the longest and accumulated the most power also tend to be the ones with the lowest Wisdom?
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Mar 31, 2017 21:49
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:One things the old 1E Imperial Mysteries talks about is the way that once Archmasters get their second taste of the Supernal the entire universe subtly changes so they no longer have a human history -- they exist, but they never existed. You could also have a Shadow Name score where the higher it is the less the exarchs know about you personally and the more the consequences of your paradox are vented onto things symbolic of your shadow name rather than your actual life. Of course, that'd be really close in implementation to Cover.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:10
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I've always viewed Wisdom as the ability to separate your insight to the Supernal with what is in front of you, in the phenomenal world. The wording is important: Wisdom implies good judgment and principle, as opposed to knowledge and insight ala Gnosis. In this way, it's better viewed as an Integrity rather than a Morality. Wisdom breaking points are those that muddle the waters for your perception, and prevent you from having the ability to separate your perceptions. Thus the Mad Ones. This dovetails nicely with the thearch conception, as Wisdom understood in this way isn't necessarily "good" in an intrinsic moral way, but it does have utility. This is also why the Guardians are, well, guardians of it and do the sin-eating of committing Wisdom sins on their own, trying to create ritual to keep perspective, and prevent it from tainting others. The problem with losing Wisdom is not that it makes you a worse person, it's that your ability to separate the Supernal from the phenomenal begins to dissipate, and on a fundamental level that enables Hubris. The Fallen World creates a paradigm where, yes, doing magic is hubris and invites that danger. Whether you think that's a construct of the Seers, or a necessary morality, that varies with the mage, order, and context. Until you ascend or go mad, that is the way things are, and thus why it ties so much with Paradox. This idea is translated basically perfectly with its mechanics: High Wisdom mages are not necessarily more potent, but they are more aware of where the line between their magic and "reality" is. They do not let goetia or Supernal entities control their perceptions as easily, and thus can deal with them better. They can control their magic better in the face of the Abyss. On the other hand, those with a low Wisdom find their Nimbus leaking into the world around them, because the very act of perceiving is itself an act upon the world. So I've never really seen any point in changing it. It fits really well with the game as presented. Like Humanity, it is designed as something that is supposed to degrade over time, save for those who really do focus their concept around it.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:15
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The problem is that the things that make you lose Wisdom have traditionally not fit with that take very well but I admit I haven't looked closely at 2e's take on Wisdom yet. 1e was scattershot and nonsensical as hell though and clearly just a weird half-formed concept on Good Wizard vs Evil Wizard.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:51
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Most of my take is from DaveB's writup on the the 2E rework, but most of the Acts of Hubris fit well within this idea. Most of the Acts of Hubris have to do with imposing your will on the patterns of the phenomenal world in some form of violent fashion, such as the violence of mind-control, soul-stealing, casting with Sleeper witnesses (and thus causing Integrity breaks), destroying without thought or extinguishing the Awakened spark. This is pointedly why pre-meditated killing is "less wrong" than impassioned killing. Killing out of hand, especially when magic is involved, is a violation of the forethought and perspective that is the core principle of being Wise. It's about doing without thinking about the consequences.
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Apr 1, 2017 00:16
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Rose Bailey and Meghan Fitzgerald have picked up Changeling Second Edition. There's also a preview of Goblin Contracts available now. http://theonyxpath.com/goblin-contracts-changeling-the-lost/
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Apr 1, 2017 00:26
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while the circumstances leading up to it suck, hell yeah rose bailey on changeling sounds awesome
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Apr 1, 2017 00:28
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The Unlife Aquatic posted:tbh I think the Cipher is easily the weakest part of Demon. It's an excuse to have a bunch of unique and interesting powers in the form of interlocks, though. Done properly, the sorts of interlocks you come up with say a lot about your character.
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Apr 1, 2017 00:34
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Captain_Person posted:Rose Bailey and Meghan Fitzgerald have picked up Changeling Second Edition. There's also a preview of Goblin Contracts available now. Oh my goodness, this is golden. Like... I really like this integration of Goblins. Suddenly I can fulfill my dream!
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Apr 1, 2017 01:06
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Captain_Person posted:Rose Bailey and Meghan Fitzgerald have picked up Changeling Second Edition. There's also a preview of Goblin Contracts available now. Not exactly thrilled at the implementation or having them as a feature of the game whatsoever but making Goblin Contracts grow to suck eventually rather than trying to play evil genie upfront with little mechanical support is at least an ethos.
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Apr 1, 2017 01:40
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Actually goblin contracts are awesome.
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Apr 1, 2017 01:42
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Captain_Person posted:Rose Bailey and Meghan Fitzgerald have picked up Changeling Second Edition. There's also a preview of Goblin Contracts available now. Those effects seem... very underwhelming for the price you end up paying to use the things in the first place.
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Apr 1, 2017 03:46
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Obligatum VII posted:Those effects seem... very underwhelming for the price you end up paying to use the things in the first place. Presumably there's more; they could also perhaps use some cleaning in clauses. What's to stop someone from dipping in and out of Goblinhood for various niche uses, like evading huntsmen or getting gobbiefriends to do things for you at the low cost of a bit of Clarity? That and it's entirely at the ST's whim to cash in your debt, which at the very least goes against my sensibility with these sorts of things; it's a lot of keep-trackening on the ST's head, and they might pull in very different directions with how the player makes sense of the game. Should the debtee not get some choice on when to repay? Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Apr 1, 2017 |
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Apr 1, 2017 04:10
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Obligatum VII posted:Those effects seem... very underwhelming for the price you end up paying to use the things in the first place. Keep in mind you have to recklessly rack up a lot of debt to end up a Hedge Denizen or a Goblin Queen. The standard price in which debt manifests is a single die penalty per activation, or a temporary debility for every five.
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Apr 1, 2017 04:12
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...It probably says something that at least 3 independent reactions to this preview I've seen all coincide at "Man, I wanna steal a baby". Everyone's going full Goblin Queen.
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Apr 1, 2017 07:14
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Mister Olympus posted:What's to stop someone from dipping in and out of Goblinhood for various niche uses, like evading huntsmen or getting gobbiefriends to do things for you at the low cost of a bit of Clarity? Evading Hunters and Gobbie friends involve becoming a Queen. Dipping back out involves stealing a child and making it Queen instead. So short term you may get fellow changelings pissed off that you're stealing people away just like the gentry, long term you have a bunch of full grown Queens out to wreck your poo poo (may also be short term since time is weird in the hedge). However, becoming a Goblin Queen and just staying that way forever seems pretty decent. Sure you gotta live in the Hedge now but it seems like Huntsmen can't get you any more.
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Apr 1, 2017 12:20
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taichara posted:For your consideration, nuWW's new guidelines for fan creations and activities. I kept feeling like there was a typo and it that it should say "Dark Pact". That'd be more appropriate, right? Oh well... I would presume it doesn't cover anything that Onyx Path does. It only mentions White Wolf. As such, given they're not apparently planning to release anything until 2018, feels like the cart is being put before the horse here - there's nothing to do fan work with, and seemingly won't be for the better part of a year.
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Apr 1, 2017 12:56
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I would presume it doesn't cover anything that Onyx Path does. It only mentions White Wolf. As such, given they're not apparently planning to release anything until 2018, feels like the cart is being put before the horse here - there's nothing to do fan work with, and seemingly won't be for the better part of a year. What, isn't what's already been released so exciting that you just can't wait to play in this world?!  Are they seriously not releasing anything else this year? They got the property in late 2015, what the hell were they up to last year?
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Apr 1, 2017 12:59
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Approving a Masquerade slot machine, dressing in furry hats, and writing a check to a notorious harasser.
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Apr 1, 2017 13:16
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Approving a Masquerade slot machine, dressing in furry hats, and writing a check to a notorious harasser. But remember, CCP were very bad stewards of the IP before they got ahold of it!
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Apr 1, 2017 13:54
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Say what you want about CCP, at least their teaser trailer wasn't made using stock footage. Speaking of which, I just realized that some and probably all of the art from the Dark Pack folder (for use by fan sites) is... art from the CCP trailer and promotions. Waste not, want not, I suppose.
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Apr 1, 2017 14:12
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Say what you want about CCP, at least they never had me wanting to not buy further products due to their words and actions.
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Apr 1, 2017 14:35
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