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Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed. |
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| Jeremy Corbyn |
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95 | 18.63% |
| Dennis Skinner |
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53 | 10.39% |
| Angus Robertson |
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20 | 3.92% |
| Tim Farron |
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9 | 1.76% |
| Paul Ukips |
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7 | 1.37% |
| Robot Lenin |
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105 | 20.59% |
| Tony Blair |
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28 | 5.49% |
| Pissflaps |
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193 | 37.84% |
| Total: | 510 votes | ||
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TomViolence posted:In the short term you don't need to overthrow poo poo, extraparliamentary politics is about building movements, networks and organisations parallel to the parliamentary system. You don't need to think in terms of parliamentary politics or violent revolution with no points in between, if people thought like that organised labour in this country wouldn't have existed in the first place for a political party to emerge from. But that hardly seems in conflict with pursuing parliamentary routes as well? And would, in fact, seem highly synergistic with parliamentary success?
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Mar 31, 2017 21:32
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OwlFancier posted:But that hardly seems in conflict with pursuing parliamentary routes as well? And would, in fact, seem highly synergistic with parliamentary success? The problem is that parliamentary success doesn't usually happen for the working class if the movements aren't already there. There is currently no movement, but people trying to force the parliamentary process to happen anyway.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:34
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Eh, I don't think having enough of a popular movement to seize the leadership of the Labour party is really a bad thing? Yes it needs more but surely that is a good start rather than a bad thing?
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Mar 31, 2017 21:39
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So HuffPo journalist Paul Waugh has a Twitter thread about how poo poo the ShadCab are at media: https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/847897383350546433 "Oh sure, Paul, we'll waste three days of your time running around the Commons Library before going with a rival publication".
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Mar 31, 2017 21:41
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Yes, but if all it does is seize the Labour leadership than it has failed as a movement. It needs to be out there providing aid to working class people and making their lives better. Also, if you do that, they might vote for you and you can change the laws to better reflect a socialist society. The making lives better is the point, not the getting elected.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:41
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Miftan posted:Yes, but if all it does is seize the Labour leadership than it has failed as a movement. It needs to be out there providing aid to working class people and making their lives better. Also, if you do that, they might vote for you and you can change the laws to better reflect a socialist society. The making lives better is the point, not the getting elected. Isn't Momentum trying for that? I would also like it to be a Labour position, frankly.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:42
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forkboy84 posted:I think replacing Jeremy Corbyn with a leader who is less loathed by the electorate, the media, the PLP & almost everyone outside the Labour Party membership is the only way incrementalism works. Coz it works by being in power, and dragging the country left, kicking & screaming if need be. And only the most delusional loon thinks that Jeremy Corbyn will ever be Prime Minister of a country bigger than Islington. If you don't want Labour to be a party of government, then you have to ask yourself what you think the point of the Labour Party is. Is it just a protest vote party? Are you just giving up on winning general elections? What's the end goal of keeping Corbyn in place? Part of incrementalism is enduring the difficulty involved in actually shifting public opinion, not giving up totally because your first attempt in decades isn't going very well. Yes, Corbyn is incredibly unlikely to become PM. He will eventually be replaced as leader. If you want incrementalism for our side, that leader has to be someone equally left-wing who can show a fresh face to the public, manage the media better and hopefully win over some more people. If you want incrementalism for the other side then by all means replace him with someone further to the right who will also lose the next election and promptly be replaced by someone further to the right than them.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:43
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TomViolence posted:In the short term you don't need to overthrow poo poo, extraparliamentary politics is about building movements, networks and organisations parallel to the parliamentary system. You don't need to think in terms of parliamentary politics or violent revolution with no points in between, if people thought like that organised labour in this country wouldn't have existed in the first place for a political party to emerge from. Yes. This is it. You build up movements. Perhaps overthrowing things is an end goal but the short term goal? Building a community, helping people, and going from there. Which is what the labour movement started as, all those years ago. Which Momentum maybe could have been but instead it just seems to have turned into a Corbyn fan club. Which is a shame. It's not "grab your pitchforks and semtex & over throw the government right now", it's people coming together to help other people from suffering the worst effects of capitalism, while possibly also educating people, indirectly or otherwise, why that needs to be done & why capitalism is garbage. If you read about the early labour movement, the early socialist movement, in any country, education was a huge part of it which seems to have slipped by the wayside. And not "basic arithmetic & grammar" learning, but learning about our society, "the stuff they won't teach you in school", stuff like people's basic rights not to be evicted on the whim of their landlord and also things about Socialism 101. Foster an actual movement, based on outreach to people.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:44
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OwlFancier posted:Isn't Momentum trying for that? I would also like it to be a Labour position, frankly. Me too. I am not a Momentum member, so I couldn't tell you what they're trying to do other than some leadership squabbles that I see in headlines occasionally. I'm doing my own thing, and I was suggesting that forkboy do the same if he isn't already because it helps you remember what's important and not to give up.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:45
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jabby posted:Part of incrementalism is enduring the difficulty involved in actually shifting public opinion, not giving up totally because your first attempt in decades isn't going very well. You might be prepared to endure it but what about the millions of ordinary people who didn't ask to endure your little experiment and need a Labour government?
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Mar 31, 2017 21:46
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Pissflaps posted:You might be prepared to endure it but what about the millions of ordinary people who didn't ask to endure your little experiment and need a Labour government? They can join and vote in the leadership too if they want?
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Mar 31, 2017 21:47
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TinTower posted:So HuffPo journalist Paul Waugh has a Twitter thread about how poo poo the ShadCab are at media: Where are the other 18 tweets? I got bored scrolling through the replies
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Mar 31, 2017 21:48
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OwlFancier posted:They can join and vote in the leadership too if they want? You're serious aren't you. loving hell.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:49
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jabby posted:Part of incrementalism is enduring the difficulty involved in actually shifting public opinion, not giving up totally because your first attempt in decades isn't going very well. Except that reality proves that this is not the case. That Jeremy Corbyn as leader, despite his best intentions, is in fact dragging the country to the right. Who is this mythical left-winger to replace Corbyn but be better at everything Corbyn is poo poo at? And if they exist why the gently caress aren't we making them leader right now? Holding on to Jeremy as leader until the perfect replacement comes along is just going to drive Labour into irrelevancy. Which is quite bad for your incrementalist plan.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:49
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Cerv posted:Where are the other 18 tweets? I got bored scrolling through the replies Shadow cabinet member briefs him on a story asks for time to get more data doesn't reply journalist gets in touch and is told that they're giving the story to somebody else.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:50
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Pissflaps posted:You're serious aren't you. loving hell. I don't find "don't participate in democracy because the people who don't want to participate in it might have wanted to hypothetically vote contrary to you" very convincing. If you want to vote for something, vote for it. If you don't vote for it in a voting system where every vote counts then... well sorry, your non-vote doesn't get taken into account?
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Mar 31, 2017 21:51
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The only way we can help the poor is for green voting university students to engage in a spending war with them to see who truly supports Labour the most.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:52
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Pissflaps posted:Shadow cabinet member briefs him on a story asks for time to get more data doesn't reply journalist gets in touch and is told that they're giving the story to somebody else. lol How to win friends and influence people
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Mar 31, 2017 21:53
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OwlFancier posted:I don't find "don't participate in democracy because the people who don't want to participate in it might have wanted to hypothetically vote contrary to you" very convincing. So you only care about people's opinions if they're able and prepared to join the Labour Party. I see.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:54
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I mean £24 a year is money I could spend on an extra few takeaways but I'm not sure I would necessarily call it a spending war.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:54
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jBrereton posted:The only way we can help the poor is for green voting university students to engage in a spending war with them to see who truly supports Labour the most. Are dullards still claiming Corbyn's base is booj yoof? Fucksake
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Mar 31, 2017 21:56
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goddamnedtwisto posted:You know it's only now, two decades later with people vehemently arguing that Labour is not supposed to be a leftist party, that I realise just how important changing Clause IV was and why the fight was quite so bloody at the time. But doesn't this prove the need for Labour to reform itself? It's hard to take the fight to the Tories if your own party is sympathetic to them on a lot of issues. Corbyn's always said that one of his major goals is to change the party internally and open it up, to break the right's stranglehold on power and policy They tried to shut him and his 'dangerous ideas' down from the beginning, and it's become a sort of an existential struggle between New Labour and the left wing. It's not like they're unified and ready to pull the country in the same direction, unlike UKIP who were pretty much just arguing over what amount of non-racism was acceptable
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Mar 31, 2017 21:56
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baka kaba posted:But doesn't this prove the need for Labour to reform itself? It's hard to take the fight to the Tories if your own party is sympathetic to them on a lot of issues. Corbyn's always said that one of his major goals is to change the party internally and open it up, to break the right's stranglehold on power and policy As cool as it would be if this was true, it's not. It's not just the Blairites that have been alienated by Corbyn. It's the soft left too. Which is a pretty big problem. Insurmountable without mass purging of MPs & frankly nothing Corbyn has shown me suggests he has the stomach for that. Anyway, here's a fun story that can be seen as an accompaniment to the earlier one on workhouses. https://twitter.com/jelle_simons/status/847782333726040064 forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 21:59
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forkboy84 posted:Are dullards still claiming Corbyn's base is booj yoof? Fucksake To be fair I'm a (Scottish) Green voting (Open) University student and I support the labour party. I'm also unemployed, skint, left school at 16, grew up in a council house and spent much of my youth addicted on and off to hard drugs and claiming benefits in between working dead end minimum wage jobs. So maybe he's talking about folk like me. I mean, it's clear he's not but
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Mar 31, 2017 22:02
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jBrereton posted:The only way we can help the poor is for green voting university students to engage in a spending war with them to see who truly supports Labour the most.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:03
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Can someone smarter than me explain how google have wrangled their accounts to mean the uk government owe them 31m in overpaid taxes?
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Mar 31, 2017 22:03
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Paul.Power posted:Raising the registered supporter price from £3 to £25 probably was a bad move, yeah. I think they could maybe do with a £12 rate, for membership. I'm sure they used to have one.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:04
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forkboy84 posted:As cool as it would be if this was true, it's not. It's not just the Blairites that have been alienated by Corbyn. It's the soft left too. Which is a pretty big problem. Insurmountable without mass purging of MPs & frankly nothing Corbyn has shown me suggests he has the stomach for that. Well I didn't mean it's exactly split that way, just that there's resistance to a socialist shift within the party itself, before you even start looking at convincing the public. The actual result has been this intentional war of attrition and yeah, a lot of left-wing people are giving up (or just don't think Corbyn is someone who can pull this off)
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Mar 31, 2017 22:11
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baka kaba posted:Well I didn't mean it's exactly split that way, just that there's resistance to a socialist shift within the party itself, before you even start looking at convincing the public. The actual result has been this intentional war of attrition and yeah, a lot of left-wing people are giving up (or just don't think Corbyn is someone who can pull this off) The attrition happens on both sides, which is unfortunate for Labour as a whole.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:16
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I've decided that the title for the new thread will be UKMT April 2017 - Circular Corbyn Conversations
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Mar 31, 2017 22:20
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Namtab posted:I've decided that the title for the new thread will be UKMT April 2017 - Circular Corbyn Conversations Circular Corbyn Conversations Perpetually
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Mar 31, 2017 22:22
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serious gaylord posted:Can someone smarter than me explain how google have wrangled their accounts to mean the uk government owe them 31m in overpaid taxes? funny if true
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Mar 31, 2017 22:27
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Miftan posted:Circular Corbyn Conversations Perpetually Ceaselessly
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Mar 31, 2017 22:28
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The Jeremy Corbyn Megathread
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Mar 31, 2017 22:28
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serious gaylord posted:Can someone smarter than me explain how google have wrangled their accounts to mean the uk government owe them 31m in overpaid taxes?
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Mar 31, 2017 22:30
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Perpetual Corbyn Machine (new branding for Labour)
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Mar 31, 2017 22:30
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Jeremy Corbyn... bad?
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Mar 31, 2017 22:31
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Namtab posted:Ceaselessly You're ignoring my rad CCCP joke though.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:31
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Miftan posted:You're ignoring my rad CCCP joke though. I appreciated your CCCP joke.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:32
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OwlFancier posted:I appreciated your CCCP joke. Thank you that means a lot.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:33
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