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Given that even CETA needed the approval of all national parliaments (and in some cases that meant regional parliaments as well) it's safe to assume that the post-Brexit EU-UK deal will require such approval as well, which means giving Spain a veto on a specific issue is mostly for show, as every nation will have the ability to veto the whole thing if even one comma is not to their liking.
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Apr 1, 2017 18:16
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Ultimately as long as the Germans are happy with the deal it'll go through one way or another.
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Apr 1, 2017 18:18
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Kurtofan posted:can't wait to go vacationing in liberated Gibraltar!! Gibraltar currently has jobs and a future. The lucky Spanish who get to work there when Spain isn't playing games on the border must be making GBS threads themselves. Like i'm a self-hating Brit and the UK is trash but lol Spain.
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Apr 1, 2017 18:55
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I don't find it absurd for Gibraltar to be handed over to Spain, as long as Ceuta and Melilla are turned over to Morocco.
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Apr 1, 2017 19:07
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I think these places should get to decide rather than being 'handed over'.
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Apr 1, 2017 19:12
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Wait, if Gibraltar can get vetoed couldn't we theoretically veto any British overseas territory like say the Cayman Islands?Pissflaps posted:I think these places should get to decide rather than being 'handed over'. This is the EU, if you're not an export economy or a founding member you don't get to have an opinion.
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Apr 1, 2017 19:13
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MiddleOne posted:Wait, if Gibraltar can get vetoed couldn't we theoretically veto any British overseas territory like say the Cayman Islands? Surely any EU member state could veto any deal for any reason they like?
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Apr 1, 2017 19:15
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Veto the Queen.
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Apr 1, 2017 19:23
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Regarde Aduck posted:Gibraltar currently has jobs and a future. The lucky Spanish who get to work there when Spain isn't playing games on the border must be making GBS threads themselves. lol spain is the far superior country
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Apr 1, 2017 19:28
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UK Gibraltar in its current form should be unacceptable to the EU. You cannot have a foreign power control a major waterway and set up spy stations right outside your borders.  The EU should also use this opportunity to call for an end of British occupation of Northern Ireland.
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Apr 1, 2017 19:29
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Pissflaps posted:I think these places should get to decide rather than being 'handed over'. preferably in a referendum
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Apr 1, 2017 19:31
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Kurtofan posted:preferably in a referendum
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Apr 1, 2017 19:38
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Kurtofan posted:preferably in a referendum Well, yes. In the last few years Gibraltar and the Falklands, for instance, have expressed their wish to remain British Territories democratically. Not sure if Spain's have had the opportunity to do the same.
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Apr 1, 2017 19:42
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Randler posted:The EU should also use this opportunity to call for an end of British occupation of Northern Ireland. And will the ever-caring, generous Germans be willing to subsidise the reintegration of the province of Ulster into Eire?
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Apr 1, 2017 19:52
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Does "Catalonia" as defined for the purposes of independence include just the administrative unit, or does it also include like, the Baleares?
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Apr 1, 2017 19:53
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Also do they want Rousillon back
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Apr 1, 2017 19:56
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Badger of Basra posted:Does "Catalonia" as defined for the purposes of independence include just the administrative unit, or does it also include like, the Baleares? They basically want the Baleares, Rousillon, the Comunitat Valenciana and some parts of Aragón. They've also got a regional government-sponsored institute for revisionist history which makes constant claims about how famous people in Spanish history such as Saint Teresa of Ávila, Miguel Cervantes and Christoffer Columbus were really Catalan. Also, for some reason, the 16th-century Dutch thinker Desiderius Erasmus. Catalan independentists are nuts.
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Apr 1, 2017 20:42
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Pissflaps posted:I think these places should get to decide rather than being 'handed over'. I've played enough Civilization to know better.
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Apr 1, 2017 20:43
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Catalan independentists are nuts. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Apr 1, 2017 |
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Apr 1, 2017 20:53
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Toplowtech posted:I don't know, they haven't made up too much poo poo yet and started blowing up buildings. My favorite nutcases, the former Yugoslave province of Macedonian nationalists, TRUE SONS OF ALEXANDER (actually just Hungarians) are destroying the few superb modern architecture buildings from the 70s they have to replace them with the shittiest neoclassical&fakest neo"macedonian" style buildings one can imagine. It's like the ultimate triumph of bad taste. Please don't make fun of the Macedonians, as they are the true heroes of the Balkans by closing the Balkan route in 2016.
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Apr 1, 2017 21:02
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Toplowtech posted:I don't know, they haven't made up too much poo poo yet and started blowing up buildings. My favorite nutcases, the former Yugoslave province of Macedonian nationalists, TRUE SONS OF ALEXANDER (actually just Hungarians) are destroying the few superb modern architecture buildings from the 70s they have to replace them with the shittiest neoclassical&fakest neo"macedonian" style buildings one can imagine. It's like the ultimate triumph of bad taste. It's almost as if the nationalist ideology is ridiculous nonsense
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Apr 1, 2017 21:19
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Most governments are quite capable of addressing multiple issues at the same time, and dealing with Gibraltar and addressing youth unemployment are certainly not mutually exclusive. It's only the UK government which will find it very difficult to deal with anything other than Brexit for the foreseeable future, in the rest of the EU they can just leave it to Barnier after his negotiating mandate has been agreed.
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Apr 1, 2017 21:22
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jBrereton posted:Do you think Barnier cares about a rock the Spanish have failed to seize a bunch of times? I think Barnier cares about closing a deal that gets the approval of all member state governments, including the Spanish one. I also think that the Spanish may want Gibraltar on the table during the negotiations simply as a bargaining chip, for instance, to secure a deal in which the UK continues to contribute to funding medical care for the hundreds of thousands of British retirees living in Spain.
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Apr 1, 2017 21:45
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jBrereton posted:Do you think Barnier cares about a rock the Spanish have failed to seize a bunch of times? The Spanish care enough to force it into the Council declaration of principles (which is quite a high-level diplomatic deal), therefore Barnier will care at least a bit. Or has been made to. Nobody expects this whole train to be derailed by a rock with some monkeys on it, but you never know; the EU-US trade deal was (in part) stuck over whether or not the word 'Parmesan' could only apply to cheese from one particular region of Italy, and not to US equivalents. It depends on how much stock both countries choose to put on it, and Gibraltar makes for great media fodder stories.
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Apr 1, 2017 21:48
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forkboy84 posted:And will the ever-caring, generous Germans be willing to subsidise the reintegration of the province of Ulster into Eire? Well, yes of course, Germans can emphasize with re-uniting a country after the foreign power occupying part of it has self-destructed out of pure hybris. Also, the "Four world cups and one Brexit"-chant would almost be worth it alone.
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Apr 2, 2017 01:05
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Spain: ei uk we want Gibraltar back. Uk:oh really?lets have a referendum on the island so the people can decide,im sure you dont have a bunch of regions clamoring for their own referendum that will be emboldened by this,regardless of the outcome of the one on gibraltar. Spain: oh wait never mind.on a totally unrelated note you better keep the scots in check because they are getting dangerous ideas.tia bae.
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Apr 2, 2017 02:56
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At this point the main problem with Gibraltar is that it's basically a smuggling port for organized crime and that the governors of Gibraltar have, like those of Hong Kong, weird notions about where exactly the border ought to be. For all the saber rattling some spanish groups are going to be doing, the UK's long running inability to deal with this is going to keep being an excuse.
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Apr 2, 2017 03:17
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Agnosticnixie posted:At this point the main problem with Gibraltar is that it's basically a smuggling port for organized crime and that the governors of Gibraltar have, like those of Hong Kong, weird notions about where exactly the border ought to be.
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Apr 2, 2017 06:12
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ChainsawCharlie posted:Spain: ei uk we want Gibraltar back. I don't understand this story.
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Apr 2, 2017 07:22
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Agnosticnixie posted:For all the saber rattling some spanish groups are going to be doing, the UK's long running inability to deal with this is going to keep being an excuse.
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Apr 2, 2017 07:24
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Toplowtech posted:The thing is the UK is afraid that the minute they give Gibraltar back, Argentinian paras jump on the Falkland and plant the Bandera. Wait, are overseas territories excluded from NATO?
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Apr 2, 2017 07:26
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Toplowtech posted:The thing is the UK is afraid that the minute they give Gibraltar back, Argentinian paras jump on the Falkland and plant the Bandera. The uk military presence there has been greatly enhanced since the last invasion and the Argentine military is in a parlous state. I don't think this scenario is one that will playing on the minds of uk politicians.
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Apr 2, 2017 07:27
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MiddleOne posted:Wait, are overseas territories excluded from NATO?
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Apr 2, 2017 07:29
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MiddleOne posted:Wait, are overseas territories excluded from NATO? Yes
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Apr 2, 2017 07:31
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Depending on how you define overseas. North Atlantic islands are, unsurprisingly, covered. Hawaii is not though, nor French overseas territories (apart from Saint Pierra and Miquelon), no matter how politically integrated they are with their respective signatory states.
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Apr 2, 2017 07:59
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MiddleOne posted:Wait, are overseas territories excluded from NATO? Yes and no. NATO is about defense of territories in North America and Europe. Territories outside of these areas is therefore not covered; if for example Brazil suddenly invaded French Guyana, France couldn't invoke article 5. However, NATO is not just about defense of territories. After all, the war in Afghanistan is the only NATO intervention triggered by article 5, and there had been other NATO interventions for other reasons (e.g. in the Balkans). Moreover, NATO logistics have been used in support of non-NATO operations (such as the French operation against jihadists in Mali).
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Apr 2, 2017 09:20
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Cat Mattress posted:Yes and no. The Afghanistan war was covered under Article 5 because the attack took place in NYC and Washington, which are clearly covered. It basically covers everything in Europe and on the Med north of the Tropic of Cancer, which means that while NATO would have to defend the Canaries, it would not defend Guantanamo, or to be more precise, be under no treaty obligation to do so. Junior G-man posted:Nobody expects this whole train to be derailed by a rock with some monkeys on it, but you never know; the EU-US trade deal was (in part) stuck over whether or not the word 'Parmesan' could only apply to cheese from one particular region of Italy, and not to US equivalents. It depends on how much stock both countries choose to put on it, and Gibraltar makes for great media fodder stories. PDO are very good at derailing anything, from trade deals to SA threads.
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Apr 2, 2017 09:34
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Is French Guiana covered?
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Apr 2, 2017 09:39
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GaussianCopula posted:The Afghanistan war was covered under Article 5 because the attack took place in NYC and Washington, which are clearly covered. Yeah I think everyone heard about 9/11. Pissflaps posted:Is French Guiana covered? Not for the purposes of article 5. Keep in mind that article 5 is the only article with geographical limitations.
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Apr 2, 2017 09:55
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/spain-drops-plan-to-impose-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu Hahaha, now Spain is no longer planning to block the Scots from joining the EU if they choose independence.
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Apr 2, 2017 09:59
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