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You also kinda have to assume everyone else is researching it so you need to learn everything you can about it. Starting up a research program after Mars/OPA dumps a truckload of PM on New York is not the best time.
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Apr 1, 2017 19:29
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Also America was fairly constrained in how it used its nuclear threat even when there wasn't a MAD situation and they had a monopoly on them. Read Command and Control, which is loving terrifying
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Apr 1, 2017 19:30
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Smiling Jack posted:Read Command and Control, which is loving terrifying It's worth checking out PBS's adaptation for their American Experience documentary series, too. Edit: also Hardcore History's audiobook-length podcast on the subject, "The Destroyer of Worlds."
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Apr 1, 2017 19:38
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Related to our discussion last week of whether Martians and Belters would have different capabilities and attitudes than Earthers due to immigration incentives and filters, new research suggests (registration required) something similar set up today's "Vikings who?" boring social democracies in Scandinavia. quote:Hence the not-unreasonable stereotype that places largely populated by voluntary migrants and their descendants — such as the United States — are more entrepreneurial, wealthier, and more unequal than source countries, such as Europe.
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Apr 1, 2017 19:58
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Platystemon posted:Hiroshima and Nagasaki went precisely as planned, though. My point was in replying to that person's post, that the horrific results of a technology or threat of eventual self annihilation has never stopped our pursuits of those technologies as a species. (I'm sure there are also some good bioweapon examples which might be more apt.)
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Apr 1, 2017 20:04
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I wish this show used the word Frank instead of gently caress
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Apr 1, 2017 21:56
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Longbaugh01 posted:Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't stop anyone from developing and building more nuclear weapons. Those were basically researched physics reactions that while unknown, at least generally adhered to principles we understood. The protomolecule in its limited time has wreaked horrible destruction and almost wiped out humanities home planet. FortMan posted:Most power players don't get the whole picture like we, or even Holden and his crew, got. Also, I doubt Mao would be telling whoever is supporting him in the MCR everything he knows. Most of the players after the protomolecule know that it eradicated all life on eros and sent it hurtling towards earth at an almost unstoppable speed. Clearly it was out of the realm of the people experimenting on it to control. Number Ten Cocks posted:It's remotely possible they learned the story of Marie Curie at some point and didn't take away the lesson that you should just avoid researching anything that can be dangerous or assume it can't be adapted for useful or beneficent purposes. It is pretty disingenuous to suggest I am anti-science because I think an alien lifeform that almost eradicated earth is too dangerous to be toyed with. edit: I think my largest problem with researching the protomolecule is that NO one in the expanse universe has shown the actual intelligence to do it responsibly. If we were talking about a starfleet contained research thing with strong safety parameters it becomes more reasonable. Every player in the expanse has shown to be to irresponsible to tinker with something that could wipeout humnanity in a shockingly short span of time. unlawfulsoup fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Apr 1, 2017 |
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Apr 1, 2017 22:11
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Is there profit to be made or power to be gained by experimenting with a potentially dangerous new discovery? If "yes", then move onto covert and potentially ruinous experimentation. If "no", then gently caress it.
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Apr 1, 2017 22:23
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Btw, the reason the US didn't use the bomb when it had a monopoly boils down to the fact that the Soviets outnumbered so vastly in conventional forces that even 1940s era nukes wouldn't tip the balance. Also, the US really didn't have a decent delivery vehicle to get into Soviet territory, there was no way to get a B-49 deep inside Soviet territory unlike Japan which basically had no air defense by August 1945. As for Mars being involved, at this point we don't really have independently verifiable information, and Errinwright has every reason to blame everything on Mars. While Mars is obviously try to cover up "Mr.Blue", it maybe simply because they have no idea is actually going on and are buying more time to get a handle on the situation. Also, the show version of the battle seemed complete chaotic. That said, we know for a fact that Errinwright was deep with Mao and was generally cool with murdering the population of Eros until it looked like Earth was itself was going to face the blow back. Also, Avasarala seems generally cool with this.
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Apr 1, 2017 23:18
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The Protomolecule may have killed a small city and sent a world-destroying rock towards Earth, apparently under no one's direction (but maybe Mars did it? (as far as people in the universe know)), but it did so by directly altering its inertia or some crazy poo poo like that. No one knew that was possible, and now they kind of want to figure out how to do it. Okay, maybe don't just smear it all over an asteroid and let it go hog wild, but there are some mechanisms in there that are definitely worth looking at. Is it incredibly dangerous? Yes. Does it have incredible potential? Also yes. A lot of reasonable people are going to say, "gently caress that, it's too dangerous," and they're right to do so. But some people will definitely think the risk is worth it considering how obviously game changing the benefits would be. Is that possibly a bad idea? Sure. But it's definitely a plausible reaction. And some otherwise prudent people are probably on board specifically because they're afraid of someone else being reckless and gaining an edge. You can call the situation foolish if you want, but it's totally plausible to the point of being basically inevitable, given the premise. Addressing other things people have said in no particular order: People have said the UN are assholes... but are they really? Erinwright does not represent the UN. He's doing his own thing as far as we know. Mao also doesn't represent Earth, he's a capitalist who's above petty nationality. The Secretary General himself has been kind of an empty suit, but not malicious, and everyone else has been basically just doing their jobs. On the whole it feels like the UN reacts. It deals with stuff as it impacts them. It has a hard time coming up with and implementing an agenda. With regards to the unrealistically huge population- I believe the idea is that Basic predated the population controls by a lot. There was a long time when people had no jobs, were given an income, and... so they had kids. Lots and lots of kids. Humans being humans it reached (or even passed) the breaking point before people finally did something about it. At least that's my mental story to explain the slums. There aren't resources to help these people. It's not like today where we just don't bother to distribute it equitably, there are just too many people in the Expanse to adequately support. Whether that's plausible or not, I believe that's the intended premise. We're not supposed to look at Avasarala and think she's some sort of Randian who thinks the poors should pull themselves up by their bootstraps. It's obvious that they can't, and she has said as much. They just don't have opportunities for them all on Earth. But she believes they're doing all they can to help them at the same time... which must mean there's not a lot they can do considering how bad things are.
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Apr 1, 2017 23:33
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Number Ten Cocks posted:Related to our discussion last week of whether Martians and Belters would have different capabilities and attitudes than Earthers due to immigration incentives and filters, new research suggests (registration required) something similar set up today's "Vikings who?" boring social democracies in Scandinavia. Makes sense. It takes little to ruin an otherwise placid and cooperative atmosphere. My last job's a perfect example. Our two assholes quit. Almost 20 people and the atmosphere completely changed after the two duds removed themselves. Suddenly, everyone got along and everyone was very relaxed. It was just a few cliques that mostly kept to themselves with no grudges, no hostility there in between, etc. Collegiality and professionalism, everywhere. Some people complained that it was more boring but I thought it was fantastic.
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Apr 1, 2017 23:43
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unlawfulsoup posted:Those were basically researched physics reactions that while unknown, at least generally adhered to principles we understood. The protomolecule in its limited time has wreaked horrible destruction and almost wiped out humanities home planet. I think that sociopathic scientists after Eros would go back to smaller scale research, work at a scale you could actually destroy if it seems to get out of hand. If you had all the data from the Eros feeds, you could look at growth rates of the PM relative to the availability of biomass then model parameters for controllable sample sizes if you were interested in further research there or needed to grow more PM. After that it'd be basic science on the processes of how the PM takes over and reworks biomass into more PM, and trying to understand how it nearly breaks physics so you could exploit that too. But from a scientific point of view - even a sociopathic one -I think that Eros was unnecessary and rushed. In a setting where you can freely regrow limbs and organs, you could do all the research on how the PM works in vat grown human tissues where you could control things better and not have to grapple with any ethical quandaries or draw major attention. The idea of taking something like the PM and just unleashing it on a station like Eros as your second major experiment is just bad experimental design. Taking something that appears to get more powerful the more biomass you give it then bumping your sample size up by several orders of magnitude is sloppy work, if much better television. ATP_Power fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Apr 1, 2017 |
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Apr 1, 2017 23:46
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unlawfulsoup posted:I think my largest problem with researching the protomolecule is that NO one in the expanse universe has shown the actual intelligence to do it responsibly. If we were talking about a starfleet contained research thing with strong safety parameters it becomes more reasonable. Every player in the expanse has shown to be to irresponsible to tinker with something that could wipeout humnanity in a shockingly short span of time.  The Protomolecule should be studied, but with extreme caution. It’s more like smallpox than it is like uranium.
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Apr 2, 2017 01:39
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I was reading this article about the Expanse and came across this choice quote:quote:In early 2002, Abraham met up with George R.R. Martin for dinner. Martin asked him, “So Daniel, how do you feel about a three-way with two old fat guys?” The author wanted Abraham’s help to complete a long-unfinished manuscript.
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Apr 2, 2017 02:58
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404notfound posted:I was reading this article about the Expanse and came across this choice quote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6bh0vam9uo
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Apr 2, 2017 03:38
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Really enjoyed this last episode, and with all the changes from the books, it's fun to be genuinely surprised by how the plot is developing. Caliban's War spoilers: Errinwright not being involved was an interesting twist, and I'm curious how that will develop. Nguyen was acting awfully shady trying to dismiss Bobbie's story, so I'm guessing that Avasarala didn't get the whole story and his/Earth's involvement is still a thing. In regards to an earlier question about moving off Earth: as of the start of the series, places that aren't Earth or Mars are all just stations under contract to inner planet corporations, not independently run locations. You'd have the same issues getting a job out there as on Earth, since it's all the same companies anyway; worse, probably, because now you're competing with a Belter population that's better adapted to the environment. It still happens, of course, like with Holden or Amos or Miller's old Earther partner, but you have to get a job to go there in the first place, so it's less a solution to mass unemployment than another outlet for it.
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Apr 2, 2017 04:23
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So I'm listening to the podcast and the authors just said the people we saw this episode are NOT on Basic, they are unregistered. The guy on the med school waiting list may be an exception who's there trying to help.
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Apr 2, 2017 04:43
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Lord Hydronium posted:you're competing with a Belter population that's better adapted to the environment. Are they really, though? Their experience gives them a massive advantage, but physiologically what do they have? Reach?
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Apr 2, 2017 05:22
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Platystemon posted:Are they really, though? Apparently even Inners who have spent most of their life in space don't hold a candle to Belters for getting around in zero gravity. That's got to be pretty important, given how much still relies on human labor.
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Apr 2, 2017 05:26
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Reach can be a big deal if it means being able to grab a handhold rather then spinning uselessly in place. Also less mass to move around.
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Apr 2, 2017 05:28
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Grand Fromage posted:So I'm listening to the podcast and the authors just said the people we saw this episode are NOT on Basic, they are unregistered. The guy on the med school waiting list may be an exception who's there trying to help. He couldn't get into a digital learning program because? I can't think of a good reason other than access to a terminal. Bits/bytes don't exactly cost much if anything. Or he was lying. Or it was just pathos play for Bobbie.
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Apr 2, 2017 06:34
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Collateral posted:He couldn't get into a digital learning program because? I can't think of a good reason other than access to a terminal. Bits/bytes don't exactly cost much if anything. Or he was lying. Or it was just pathos play for Bobbie. No matter how advance a society is, I doubt people will be comfortable seeing a doctor who got an online education. 
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Apr 2, 2017 06:45
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Smiling Jack posted:Read Command and Control, which is loving terrifying Sure, but keep in mind Russia had ICBMs before America did and made a point of showing that off. Russia is also notoriously paranoid, especially during the time period we are talking about. They didn't first strike but came close. It was about as asymmetrical as you can get too.
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Apr 2, 2017 07:26
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Shbobdb posted:Sure, but keep in mind Russia had ICBMs before America did and made a point of showing that off. I think their point, or at least what I found so striking about Command and Control, was how slipshod our handling of nuclear weapons was (and in some ways probably still is). It's honestly shocking that there hasn't been an accidental detonation yet.
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Apr 2, 2017 07:43
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Phobophilia posted:second, im not a plant biologist, or an ecologist. do people really talk about cascades like that? or was it invented wholesale by the writers/scripters? Cascading Failure is a real thing for any closed system with interdependent parts. I'd argue that Ganymede's greenhouses are just such a system vulnerable to this failure mode. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascading_failure While that article is mostly discussing technical systems, a good example from a biological/ecological perspective is Easter Island. The introduction of rats to the island is pretty much the current hotness as the primary driver for its ecological collapse. Polynesian Rats love nuts, seeds and newly sprouted trees. They prevented new growth of the trees and as the trees went so did a bunch of species of bird and other plants.
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Apr 2, 2017 07:45
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Toast Museum posted:I think their point, or at least what I found so striking about Command and Control, was how slipshod our handling of nuclear weapons was (and in some ways probably still is). It's honestly shocking that there hasn't been an accidental detonation yet. Not an angle I had considered, but how could someone with a Bender av not point out the slipshod nature of our reality. Thank you.
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Apr 2, 2017 07:45
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Toast Museum posted:I think their point, or at least what I found so striking about Command and Control, was how slipshod our handling of nuclear weapons was (and in some ways probably still is). It's honestly shocking that there hasn't been an accidental detonation yet. Yeah, the documentary primarily deals with the silo fueling crisis. The truly terrifying parts of the book deal with the total lack of any type of, well, command and control of nuclear weapons during the early deployment of the nuclear arsenal, especially in the fifties. The hilarious parts are when they discover the initial safety devices would have prevented a detonation if the weapons had actually been launched/dropped. We came amazingly close to inadvertently detonating a nuclear weapon on several occasions though.
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Apr 2, 2017 08:08
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Finally watching the most recent episode. When Bobby sees the destitute people under the bridge you hear a public address ad (from a drone?) encouraging people to "Take advantage of basic income, group housing, medical services. Register today for a better tomorrow." Yeah, they aren't on basic, the government is trying to persuade them to get on basic.
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Apr 3, 2017 00:50
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Grand Fromage posted:So I'm listening to the podcast and the authors just said the people we saw this episode are NOT on Basic, they are unregistered. The guy on the med school waiting list may be an exception who's there trying to help. Why did it take a podcast to clarify this? I thought it was clear as day.
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Apr 3, 2017 03:03
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Also America was fairly constrained in how it used its nuclear threat even when there wasn't a MAD situation and they had a monopoly on them. Um, the US planned to drop a dozen nukes on Japan. The only reason they didn't was because they wanted to make sure Japan understood that they had a lot of nukes, and spacing them out over the period of several days made a more lasting impression over the Japanese.
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Apr 3, 2017 03:57
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enraged_camel posted:Um, the US planned to drop a dozen nukes on Japan. The only reason they didn't was because they wanted to make sure Japan understood that they had a lot of nukes, and spacing them out over the period of several days made a more lasting impression over the Japanese. Yeah, people forget the US was ready and willing to continue to drop The Bomb. They had a third waiting and would have been dropped on August 19th if Japan hadn't actually surrendered on the 15th. And now that they had nailed the production process, they could turn out more of them in a matter of weeks, IIRC.
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Apr 3, 2017 04:05
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enraged_camel posted:Um, the US planned to drop a dozen nukes on Japan. The only reason they didn't was because they wanted to make sure Japan understood that they had a lot of nukes, and spacing them out over the period of several days made a more lasting impression over the Japanese. The USAF couldn’t have bombed Japan a third time by the fifteenth of August (when they surrendered). The third bomb was expected to be ready on the twenty‐fourth. A fourth would follow in early September.
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Apr 3, 2017 04:09
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enraged_camel posted:Um, the US planned to drop a dozen nukes on Japan. The only reason they didn't was because they wanted to make sure Japan understood that they had a lot of nukes, and spacing them out over the period of several days made a more lasting impression over the Japanese. I meant after the war. They knew they couldn't keep threatening people with dropping the bomb if they didn't actually use it. And they knew they didn't want to use it, because they'd demilitarised in Europe a lot, and the Soviets hadn't.
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Apr 3, 2017 04:11
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Platystemon posted:The USAF couldn’t have bombed Japan a third time by the fifteenth of August (when they surrendered). The third bomb was expected to be ready on the twenty‐fourth. EDIT: NVM. This thread isn't the place for this discussion.
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Apr 3, 2017 04:17
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Platystemon posted:Enola Gay didn’t become sentient and make a beeline for D.C. at mach 5 till a Pinkerton agent convinced it to bomb Molokai instead. That's just what They want you to believe. Wake up sheeple
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Apr 3, 2017 04:25
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Yeah...at this point I'm really sorry I ever brought up nuclear weapons even though it was to make a point that wasn't specific to nuclear weapons, and most of the responses I've seen either miss it or ignore it.
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Apr 3, 2017 09:24
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Longbaugh01 posted:Yeah...at this point I'm really sorry I ever brought up nuclear weapons even though it was to make a point that wasn't specific to nuclear weapons, and most of the responses I've seen either miss it or ignore it. Because nuclear weapons are not an apples to apples comparison to protomolecule.
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Apr 3, 2017 10:02
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unlawfulsoup posted:Because nuclear weapons are not an apples to apples comparison to protomolecule. Longbaugh01 posted:...even though it was to make a point that wasn't specific to nuclear weapons... And you should really go back to your original post (think it was you) that prompted my reply in the first place, since it was specifically responding to how you thought it was unrealistic (or something) that profit and power driven entities were willing to continue messing with the protomolecule.
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Apr 3, 2017 10:31
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So, I know they have space alcohol. And I seem to recall a thing from book/season 1 where belter workers were on space meth or something to stay awake and alert and not tire out (?)... Basically what I'm asking - is spacecake legal in the Expanse universe?
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Apr 3, 2017 14:52
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VagueRant posted:So, I know they have space alcohol. And I seem to recall a thing from book/season 1 where belter workers were on space meth or something to stay awake and alert and not tire out (?)... Yeah, weed and other various drugs are legal in the Belt. I think the range of legal substances is narrower (or varies more) on Earth and Mars, but it's vague.
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Apr 3, 2017 15:20
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