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Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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33 | 6.38% |
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343 | 66.34% |
| Keith Ellison |
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54 | 10.44% |
| Pete Buttigieg |
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71 | 13.73% |
| Jehmu Green |
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16 | 3.09% |
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KomradeX posted:Well someone in Democratic politics is the racist party and it's totally not the wing of the party that has governors veto bipartisan laws to help poor minorities get lawyers. Or the people who give Mike "Stop and Frisk" Bloomberg a prime time speaking slot. Or the one where the governor of Missouri allowed the Ferguson PD to go wild. You have an actual minority talking to you about minority issues, yet you choose to create your own narrative. That says quite a bit.
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Apr 2, 2017 19:35
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blackguy32 posted:You have an actual minority talking to you about minority issues, yet you choose to create your own narrative. That says quite a bit. So none of what he said matters? Yeah I think its obvious you just want to pretend that we're racist and are mad that SUPER PREDATORS. HRC lost.
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Apr 2, 2017 19:36
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Condiv posted:bs Who is “you guys”? I never posted poo poo. I get enough of “this idea” from this thread alone. I've been labelled a “centrist” twice for condemning a racist post.
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Apr 2, 2017 19:38
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Crowsbeak posted:So none of what he said matters? Yeah I think its obvious you just want to pretend that we're racist and are mad that SUPER PREDATORS. HRC lost. It matters if you want to come up with all sorts of mental gymnastics in your head to explain why your narrative fits instead of, you know, actually talking with people as to why they don't buy into the narratives that you keep trying to force feed that speaks for minorities. So you tell me. Why wasn't the super predator narrative effective as turning black people away from Hillary Clinton as a candidate?
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Apr 2, 2017 19:42
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Because it did.
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Apr 2, 2017 19:43
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fsif posted:Who is “you guys”? I never posted poo poo. no, you got labeled a centrist for trying to paint a good deal of the left as racists i don't care if you condemn a racist post. i care that you are trying to pretend that bernie's base has a significant racist contingent without evidence
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Apr 2, 2017 19:46
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blackguy32 posted:It matters if you want to come up with all sorts of mental gymnastics in your head to explain why your narrative fits instead of, you know, actually talking with people as to why they don't buy into the narratives that you keep trying to force feed that speaks for minorities. I have several black friends who didn't vote for her because of that. I'm sorry but your Abuela didn't come off as in anyway actually good for alot of Black people. Probably also helps that alot of them also didn't think she'd make them economically better off. I mean I can see why some gen xer who probably needs some tax breaks could vote for her. Basic self interest. Also centrists are universally people who are doing all right, who probably if they were not in one of the groups the GOP hates would vote GOP. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Apr 2, 2017 |
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Apr 2, 2017 19:50
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blackguy32 posted:You have an actual minority talking to you about minority issues, yet you choose to create your own narrative. That says quite a bit. So your saying hands down the centrist wing of the party isn't racist because you were elected the speaker for all PoC? That's what you're saying because I can counter that with the most hardcore Bernie people I knew during the election were black and always brought up the Super Predator comment when I the white guy would argue to them that we need to hold our nose and vote for her because the alternative is to awful. So please tell me where my narrative is because from what I see the problem with Democrats isn't the possibility of a racist left, it's a center that is racist and props up upper class suburban racism
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Apr 2, 2017 19:53
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Condiv posted:no, you got labeled a centrist for trying to paint a good deal of the left as racists I went out of my way to ensure I wasn't painting Bernie supporters with a broad brush, but the mere suggestion that there are white leftists who aren't properly clued into race issues provoked a dog-piling here. I am in no way a centrist and I voted for Bernie in the primary and will likely vote for whoever he endorses in 2020. But I know in my own life enough white leftists who unironically believe there's no war but class war and enough black activists who have had negative experiences with white activists. I'm not sure how many people need to say that this is a phenomenon that exists before you believe them.
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Apr 2, 2017 20:02
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Lol I bet you chastised people for voting for Stein though. ISeeCuckedPeople
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Apr 2, 2017 20:03
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fsif posted:Who is “you guys”? I never posted poo poo. To be honest it feels like the general tone deafness to identity issues that pervades 21st century reactionary politics, as a decent chunk of leftism grappled with the balance of class rhetoric with identity issues as leftism flowed to less homogenous regions. With that being said, this reactionary wave is its own brand of awful and has been entrusted to lazy shepherds.
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Apr 2, 2017 20:03
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blackguy32 posted:So you tell me. Why wasn't the super predator narrative effective as turning black people away from Hillary Clinton as a candidate? It probably helped that the guy running against her was the worst candidate in recent history re. minority issues. Though she still didn't perform remarkably well among minorities, which is damning.
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Apr 2, 2017 20:06
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Ferrinus posted:I mean, is there any that they wouldn't have? Did non-whites dislike Sanders on the whole? I thought he enjoyed generally high approval ratings with the voting population that'd typically turn out for democrats, but just not AS high as Clinton with certain segments who had greater experience working with her and reason to trust her. They were distrustful of him, particularly older poc, because they know an economic leftist will always throw them and their issues under the bus in a heartbeat to focus on improving things for poor white people, then justify it with some horseshit about racism being a myth invented by neoliberals to distract from classism. The replies here show they are absolutely justified to think this.
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Apr 2, 2017 20:53
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Fulchrum posted:They were distrustful of him, particularly older poc, because they know an economic leftist will always throw them and their issues under the bus in a heartbeat Yet they didn't feel that way about Obama, who at least ran on an economically left-of-center platform. Obviously the fact that he's black didn't hurt, but your assumption that "they know an economic leftist will always throw them and their issues under the bus" doesn't really hold water in all cases.
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Apr 2, 2017 20:58
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blackguy32 posted:You have an actual minority talking to you about minority issues, yet you choose to create your own narrative. That says quite a bit. Other actual minorities voted a hell of a lot more for Sanders. Black people are the only minority group where Sanders wasn't polling around either at roughly the same rate as whites or better. Do native americans not count? Do middle easterners not count? What the gently caress was Clinton offering to arab americans besides platitudes and more of their relatives being bombed? What the gently caress was she offering to the DAPL protesters that didn't have to be dragged out of her by force?
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Apr 2, 2017 21:02
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Majorian posted:Yet they didn't feel that way about Obama, who at least ran on an economically left-of-center platform. Obviously the fact that he's black didn't hurt, but your assumption that "they know an economic leftist will always throw them and their issues under the bus" doesn't really hold water in all cases. And your assumption is that he never did anything to show he knew what these communities went through and cared deeply about it, as well as having a lifetime of work in black communities to back it up. Unlike a guy who is writing that Dems needs to reach out to working class Trump voters and listen to them above all, and spent his political career in loving Vermont, where the African American population is Dan and his wife.
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Apr 2, 2017 21:02
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Fulchrum posted:They were distrustful of him, particularly older poc, because they know an economic leftist will always throw them and their issues under the bus in a heartbeat to focus on improving things for poor white people, then justify it with some horseshit about racism being a myth invented by neoliberals to distract from classism. Oh lol. Yes Neoliberals were never racist. http://www.theroot.com/for-the-record-superpredators-is-absolutely-a-racist-t-1790857020 https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/09/stone-mountain-kkk-white-supremacy-simmons/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/01/28/the-10-nastiest-moments-of-the-obama-hillary-primary-video/ https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/09/stone-mountain-kkk-white-supremacy-simmons/  OH and yes it comes from the Trots, but they are right. Your neoliberalsused deliberate race baiting to destroy the Rainbow Coalition. https://socialistworker.org/2016/07/25/how-democrats-got-over-the-rainbow Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Apr 2, 2017 |
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Apr 2, 2017 21:09
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The dems already made their 2016 campaign plan to be reaching out to racists. What the hell do you think is involved in catering to the "moderate republicans" who live in havens of white flight?
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Apr 2, 2017 21:12
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Agnosticnixie posted:The dems already made their 2016 campaign plan to be reaching out to racists. What the hell do you think is involved in catering to the "moderate republicans" who live in havens of white flight? Hey don't talk about Centrist posters neighbors like that.
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Apr 2, 2017 21:14
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Crowsbeak posted:Oh lol. Yes Neoliberals were never racist. Why not just link the Breitbart page that got you these links instead? And I actually wanted to check to see if you really are as boring and predictable a troll as all right wingers who do this. So before even clicking it, I guessed that your first one would be the Clintons reaching out to African American neighborhoods and actually listening to them. Maybe next time add a little thought before regurgitating what the right wing wants you to say. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 2, 2017 21:16
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Fulchrum posted:And your assumption is that he never did anything to show he knew what these communities went through and cared deeply about it That's not at all my assumption, and given how often I've said that leftists need to do a better job of engaging minority communities, you should know better. You made the blanket statement that older black people "know" that economic leftists will throw them under the bus. That was not accurate. That's why I called you out on it. quote:Unlike a guy who is writing that Dems needs to reach out to working class Trump voters and listen to them above all He never said anything remotely like the bolded part. Stop lying please.
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Apr 2, 2017 21:19
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Remember everyone the Root a website that writes articles specifically meant to look at topics that interest Black American is exactly like the white supremacist site Breitbart. Also I didn't know going to STONE MOUNTAIN A loving KKK HOLY SITE is outreach to Blacks.
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Apr 2, 2017 21:22
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Again we come to the fact that we're just going to ignore the racism of the Centrist Wing of the Party, like this isn't a hypothetical. What has DWS in her role in Congress done to combat racism? It sure as hell isn't advocate for turning down the war on drugs. Same goes for Barbra Boxer. What have any of the centrist mayors and Governors (that you can still find) done to combat racism. Jay Nixon let the Ferguson PD get away with every awful thing they did. Andrew Cuomo is on a never ending crusade to hurt every poor person in the State of New York and you get three guess to who dominates that demographic. gently caress these losers even let their own internal party politics be dictated to by the Republican ex-Mayor of New York City Mike "Stop and Frisk" Bloomberg! During the recent DNC chair elections there was a huge push by keep Ellison down by spreading lies that he's an anti-semite! Christ everything Bill Clinton said in the 2008 loving primaries! Let's not even get into the asinine argument that Black people are antagonistic to the Left because of the New loving Deal, not only completely erasing the struggles of Communist and Socialist organizers who worked to get Black people into unions as well as fight against lynching, activities they were murdered for. But it's also loving ignoring the actual Civil Rights movement from MLK right down to Angela Davis, countless words and actions talking about how economic justice is just as important as racial. Christ MLK goes to Chicago and he says it's worse than Alabama, and I don't think that Mayor Daley was much of a radical leftist. Are there working class racists, yes. Are they loving scumbags, yes without a doubt. But for some reason the Center of the party wants to hate and punish them, but the upwardly mobile white flight suburban dwellers that the party keeps wanting to court, well their racism isn't vulgar, they just don't want public transit so "Those People" can't come to their nice town and cause all sorts of trouble. But that's all fine, remember Hillary wanted a nice polite border fence, not a vulgar border wall like Trump.
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Apr 2, 2017 21:59
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KomradeX posted:Again we come to the fact that we're just going to ignore the racism of the Centrist Wing of the Party, like this isn't a hypothetical. What has DWS in her role in Congress done to combat racism? It sure as hell isn't advocate for turning down the war on drugs. Same goes for Barbra Boxer. What have any of the centrist mayors and Governors (that you can still find) done to combat racism. Jay Nixon let the Ferguson PD get away with every awful thing they did. Andrew Cuomo is on a never ending crusade to hurt every poor person in the State of New York and you get three guess to who dominates that demographic. gently caress these losers even let their own internal party politics be dictated to by the Republican ex-Mayor of New York City Mike "Stop and Frisk" Bloomberg! During the recent DNC chair elections there was a huge push by keep Ellison down by spreading lies that he's an anti-semite! Christ everything Bill Clinton said in the 2008 loving primaries! Let's not even get into the asinine argument that Black people are antagonistic to the Left because of the New loving Deal, not only completely erasing the struggles of Communist and Socialist organizers who worked to get Black people into unions as well as fight against lynching, activities they were murdered for. But it's also loving ignoring the actual Civil Rights movement from MLK right down to Angela Davis, countless words and actions talking about how economic justice is just as important as racial. Christ MLK goes to Chicago and he says it's worse than Alabama, and I don't think that Mayor Daley was much of a radical leftist. So you see, blackguy32, you are the real racist. Signed: A white dude.
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Apr 2, 2017 22:05
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Crowsbeak posted:Remember everyone the Root a website that writes articles specifically meant to look at topics that interest Black American is exactly like the white supremacist site Breitbart. Also I didn't know going to STONE MOUNTAIN A loving KKK HOLY SITE is outreach to Blacks. Stone Mountain, GA is, like, 75% black people. So yes, going to stone mountain, ga, is outreach to black americans. As much as stone mountain is a gross monument to the south's traitorous forefathers, it's a pretty diverse group of people who end up loving around there. That's why the South and the CSA's victory over history sucks: even though they lost, all the monuments and poo poo glorifying them mean people become inured to how lovely the CSA was because they're relegated to background monuments and poo poo like being that fun-laser-show-I-get-mad-baked-before-watching rather than evil-raping-slavers-who-threatened-democracy. MLKQUOTEMACHINE fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Apr 2, 2017 |
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Apr 2, 2017 22:16
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YodaTFK posted:So you see, blackguy32, you are the real racist. So no matter what a politician does, it can't be racist if they can find a black person to endorse them?
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Apr 2, 2017 22:34
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:Stone Mountain, GA is, like, 75% black people. So yes, going to stone mountain, ga, is outreach to black americans. As much as stone mountain is a gross monument to the south's traitorous forefathers, it's a pretty diverse group of people who end up loving around there. I think you, uh, might be leaving important pieces of context out: quote:On March 1, 1992, just a week before Super Tuesday—itself a DLC invention to address the supposedly outsized role that “issue activist and interest group leaders” had come to play in the nomination process—the DLC held a Clinton campaign event at the Stone Mountain Correctional Institution in Stone Mountain, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta. The event took place in the months between Bill Clinton’s peregrination to Arkansas to oversee the execution of Ricky Ray Rector, a black prisoner with documented intellectual disabilities, and his “Sister Souljah moment” in May, when he vocally distanced himself from Jackson and radical black activism. e: beaten to the photo, grrr Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Apr 2, 2017 |
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Apr 2, 2017 22:43
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YodaTFK posted:So you see, blackguy32, you are the real racist. Thanks for missing entirely what I'm saying
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Apr 2, 2017 23:20
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:Stone Mountain, GA is, like, 75% black people. So yes, going to stone mountain, ga, is outreach to black americans. As much as stone mountain is a gross monument to the south's traitorous forefathers, it's a pretty diverse group of people who end up loving around there. Notice how in that picture from Stone Mountain. Slick WIlly is with a bunch of suited white guys. Behind him is almost entirely black prisoners. Yeah that was not done as outreach to blacks. That was to td coddle the white flight sodomites* *Look up what Ezikiel said what it means. Also I have a dream that one day people will go to the Stone Montain and See George Thomas, Frederick Douglas, Sherman, and Lincoln riding their horses
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Apr 2, 2017 23:20
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blackguy32 posted:
Well the irony here is that it appears people of color stuck with Clinton despite the "superpredators" and "welfare reform" poo poo because they were willing to work with (coddle...?) a racist for the sake of securing mutual material advantage. Like, right? This is why the Clintons' connections to black communities didn't instantly burn to ash in the nineties. It wasn't because people of color were too stupid to know what "superpredators" meant. All that said, the only racists you need to coddle here, strictly speaking, are people who didn't vote for Clinton rather than people who did vote for Trump. For the most part these aren't ardent white supremacists. Actually my biggest fear about the election was that Clinton would get pretty much the entirety of the female and minority vote BUT that white men would turn out in unprecedented numbers such that white supremacy won the day by sheer weight of numbers and made clear for us all that America was literally too racist to ever reform... but that's not what happened. Fulchrum posted:They were distrustful of him, particularly older poc, because they know an economic leftist will always throw them and their issues under the bus in a heartbeat to focus on improving things for poor white people, then justify it with some horseshit about racism being a myth invented by neoliberals to distract from classism. Okay but does reality show that. Has Sanders, or the Sanders wing of he party, ACTUALLY thrown minorities under the bus through some action that isn't posting. Here's my counter claim: "economic leftist" is a boogeyman conjured by racists that allows those racists to throw poc under the bus. "Will breaking up the big banks end racism???"'s real audience is not those who hate racism but those who love banks. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Apr 2, 2017 |
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Apr 2, 2017 23:22
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Crowsbeak posted:Notice how in that picture from Stone Mountain. Slick WIlly is with a bunch of suited white guys. Behind him is almost entirely black prisoners. Yeah that was not done as outreach to blacks. That was to td coddle the white flight sodomites* i wasnt really responding to this in context, my bad. i was more so pointing out going to a majority black area is technically black outreach. this and the previous posts were literal poo poo posts.
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Apr 2, 2017 23:49
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Ferrinus posted:
Yeah, I think Michelle Alexander (who is herself a woman of color) said it best in her piece in The Nation: quote:But recognizing that Bernie, like Hillary, has blurred vision when it comes to race is not the same thing as saying their views are equally problematic. Sanders opposed the 1996 welfare-reform law. He also opposed bank deregulation and the Iraq War, both of which Hillary supported, and both of which have proved disastrous. In short, there is such a thing as a lesser evil, and Hillary is not it.
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Apr 2, 2017 23:55
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blackguy32 posted:Actually no, if they believe in racism, then they can get hosed. Honest question - where do you draw the line here? Because I can guarantee you that an overwhelming majority of Americans, both Democrats and Republicans, hold views that are "really loving racist." My dad has been a Democratic voter all his life, considers himself very liberal, and likes to talk about how racist Republicans are, but will still make "jokes" where he imitates AAVE. At the end of the day, racism is common to the extent where I don't feel you can say "well let's put the non-racists on this side of the line and non-racists on this side" (and actually come close to winning elections, at least). Even within minority communities you encounter bigotry towards other minority communities. I feel like there's a difference between "trying to appeal to X group of people who may also hold racist opinions" and "tolerating racist opinions." You can advertise policies aimed at demographics that also include a lot of racist people while still making it clear that you don't tolerate racism or racist policy yourself. One other thing to keep in mind is that older voters in general went for Clinton over Sanders in the primary. This is likely also why Clinton voters were, on average, more racist than Sanders voters (because younger people are on average less racist), so that graph doesn't really serve as proof that younger Clinton supporters (which are the ones generally showing up in these online discussions) are more racist than their Sanders supporting counterparts. However, by the same logic, overall black support for Clinton doesn't necessarily mean Clinton support was as unanimous as you're trying to imply it is. We know that the vast majority of older black primary voters supported Clinton, but given older people tend to vote far more than their younger counterparts this casts doubt on the idea that "black people in general" nearly universally support Clinton. Older people are disproportionately represented as voters, so it is questionable to cast voter behavior as representing the consensus opinions of a minority group, especially when voting behavior differed greatly by age in the case of black primary voters. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Apr 3, 2017 |
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Apr 3, 2017 00:49
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:i wasnt really responding to this in context, my bad. i was more so pointing out going to a majority black area is technically black outreach. this and the previous posts were literal poo poo posts. What you really mean is that as any good neoliberal centrist you cant actually deny that HRC and Bubba were very happy to be racist and the whining about alleged racism by leftists was just projection from you types who knew you were guilty of it.
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Apr 3, 2017 01:22
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Ferrinus posted:
You mean like running full tilt away from any racial issues over his career right up til he was on the national stage, and ignoring African American issues, to the point that even Sanders own outreach director admitted Sanders hadn't done anything on that front? Wait wait, sorry, I got my reality in the way of your attempts to claim credit for everything good and pure that has ever happened, and how those awful neoliberals are the true villains who just hate their voters so much. Lemme guess, economic leftists were responsible for the discovery of flight, the wheel, and the first 8 seasons of The Simpsons as well. I also like that you're claiming economic leftists, a term you fucks chose to self describe with, is somehow a racist invention. Just like how climate change was totally not a term made up by right wing think tanks and instead was just a liberal plot to destroy industry. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Apr 3, 2017 |
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Apr 3, 2017 05:50
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I like how FUlchrum can't actually provide any links that back up his claims that Bernie Sander never brought up racial issues before 2016. Of course I am still waiting for him to back up his claim that The Root is exactly like Breitbart. Of course I am also amazed that lal the centrists here couldn't issue a peep when he made that claim. I thought we stood against people comparing those fighting for justice to racist sociopaths. \
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Apr 3, 2017 06:08
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Ytlaya posted:Honest question - where do you draw the line here? Because I can guarantee you that an overwhelming majority of Americans, both Democrats and Republicans, hold views that are "really loving racist." My dad has been a Democratic voter all his life, considers himself very liberal, and likes to talk about how racist Republicans are, but will still make "jokes" where he imitates AAVE. In part of the flurry of 'going to Trump country' postmortems appearing in the media, a lot of younger white Trump voters who were not lockstep republicans (either occasional dem voters or libertarians) tended to parrot the talking point that Clinton did not talk about the struggles of 'everyday', or 'ordinary' Americans enough. This is of course a dog-whistle, because it's pretty clear 'everyday' Americans means 'white lower middle/working class people like me', but they don't want to appear to be openly racist, and probably don't consider themselves to be racists. This leads me to suspect you could easily win these voters over, even while campaigning that you very clearly do not tolerate racism.
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Apr 3, 2017 06:08
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Or Hillary Clinton completely ignored the plight of those people for whom poo poo just loving sucks to espouse "America is already great" . That message is farcical on any standard of economical, racial, environmental, or social rights improvement. Even if the best she could do in the office of the executive was simply keeping things like the EPA, FCC, and American R&D going that would be better but certainly not an endorsement of current affairs. She should have shot for the stars instead of the bilge, she might have possibly won then.
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Apr 3, 2017 06:16
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Grognan posted:Or Hillary Clinton completely ignored the plight of those people for whom poo poo just loving sucks to espouse "America is already great" . That message is farcical on any standard of economical, racial, environmental, or social rights improvement. I think that was mostly an attempt to try and reclaim overt patriotism from the stranglehold of the GOP, more than anything else. Ofc it failed miserably because this wasn't the election to attempt that in.
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Apr 3, 2017 06:20
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El Pollo Blanco posted:I think that was mostly an attempt to try and reclaim overt patriotism from the stranglehold of the GOP, more than anything else. Ofc it failed miserably because this wasn't the election to attempt that in. Those things that are taken by stereotype patriotic (war, business, and loving others over) are cancer to a lot of people overall and simply shut out at the front door for a lot of the disaffected of the USA. Still trying to appeal to an irrelevant and unrealistic idea cherished by consultants, analysts, and upper crust morons that make a living by floating around the Cloaca Maxima that is the DC circuit.
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Apr 3, 2017 06:30
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