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Kanos posted:What about it is "un-Gundam"? What Gundam are you referring to? There's a lot of Gundam series with different and often conflicting morals and themes. IBO's approach to child soldiers dovetails nicely with UC Gundam's take on newtypes and cyber newtypes, for example. I'd say that there's a general trend that while violence can resolve specific, immediate threats it can't fix (and tends to make worse) big political and societal issues. If directed carefully it might be able to stop the Titans but it won't fix the Earth/colony divide and it might come at the cost of a resurgent Neo-Zeon. The show never contradicts Orga's belief that if you keep fighting aimlessly everything will work out.
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Apr 3, 2017 02:37
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It's a shame that Nobliss was shot through the door without getting to realize what's coming because it would've been satisfying to see the capitalist poo poo try to beg for his life before dying. But on the other hand, Iok finally got his, and got it real good.
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Apr 3, 2017 02:43
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RottenK posted:It's a shame that Nobliss was shot through the door without getting to realize what's coming because it would've been satisfying to see the capitalist poo poo try to beg for his life before dying. But on the other hand, Iok finally got his, and got it real good. That wasn't the point; He'd long-forgotten Orga without a care. But Ride hadn't...
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Apr 3, 2017 02:46
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RottenK posted:It's a shame that Nobliss was shot through the door without getting to realize what's coming because it would've been satisfying to see the capitalist poo poo try to beg for his life before dying. But on the other hand, Iok finally got his, and got it real good. I have a hard time going "Boy, I'm sure glad Nobliss died" when his involvement was "he had people watching a place and they killed a guy without him even knowing" in a setting where we're supposed to be cheering for space mafia guys. I mean Nobliss is a poo poo but I'm not sure what makes him more of a poo poo than Teiwaz is.
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Apr 3, 2017 02:50
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Microcline posted:I'd say that there's a general trend that while violence can resolve specific, immediate threats it can't fix (and tends to make worse) big political and societal issues. If directed carefully it might be able to stop the Titans but it won't fix the Earth/colony divide and it might come at the cost of a resurgent Neo-Zeon. The show never contradicts Orga's belief that if you keep fighting aimlessly everything will work out. Except this ending explicitly does contradict that. The group that lashes out aimlessly at all of their problems is brutally smashed into the dust and scotched from the face of history after achieving absolutely nothing of worth. The "victory" they achieve in the end is that some of them get to run away and live while hiding their true identities for the remainder of their lives. The actual winner of the entire battle is the only one who was fighting with a clear objective in mind.
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Apr 3, 2017 02:51
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Microcline posted:I'd say that there's a general trend that while violence can resolve specific, immediate threats it can't fix (and tends to make worse) big political and societal issues. If directed carefully it might be able to stop the Titans but it won't fix the Earth/colony divide and it might come at the cost of a resurgent Neo-Zeon. The show never contradicts Orga's belief that if you keep fighting aimlessly everything will work out. idk it seems to be pretty down on orga and mcgillis' methods and punishes them for it in the end. the only tekkadan members that actually get anything but a bodybag in the end are the ones that leave. the ones that stay and fight to the end all die. it doesn't do a great job of specifying the alternatives tho. kudelia could have played that role if she was allowed to do anything but be sad about things, and rustal's general policies and his intended endgame should have been made more clear before halfway into the last episode, but I don't agree with what you're saying about how the show handles orga's beliefs
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Apr 3, 2017 02:51
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On the other hand they probably would have all died in episode one without that philosophy, so a handful of them ultimately surviving seems like a net gain.
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Apr 3, 2017 03:10
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ImpAtom posted:I have a hard time going "Boy, I'm sure glad Nobliss died" when his involvement was "he had people watching a place and they killed a guy without him even knowing" in a setting where we're supposed to be cheering for space mafia guys. I mean Nobliss is a poo poo but I'm not sure what makes him more of a poo poo than Teiwaz is. I'm not really glad that he died or anything, but I sure can't blame Ride for killing him.
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Apr 3, 2017 03:20
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there was no other option at the very beginning. they had other options besides siding with mcgillis and being destroyed; that decision hurt them from the start and led to a bunch of unnecessary deaths, including people like naze who were just affiliated with them
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Apr 3, 2017 03:21
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The tragedy of Orga's philosophy is that he really did make a family for these kids. It's just that he managed that before the season even started and all his actions this season to make a better place for them after it was all over, become King of Mars and all that, was pointless and made everything worse. Because as the last few episodes showed Tekkadan would still stick together even if they cut their losses and let the company die. Orga still saved a lot of these people but if he had got out of the game earlier rather than keeping at it (for their sake admittedly) a lot of them wouldn't have died and it'd probably have been a happier ending.
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Apr 3, 2017 03:26
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They were basically set on the whole King of Mars path after what happened on Earth. The Dawn Horizon Corps wasn't really directed at them, but the pirates were determined not to let a bunch of kids show them up. Then despite proving themselves to be more than a match for one of the biggest pirate bands, Galan Mossa sets up their Earth Branch and bleeds that group dry. Whether or not Tekkadan was deliberately targeted or just a case of two birds one stone wouldn't really matter. Despite proving themselves STRONG, people still sought to mess with Tekkadan. Part of it is that their Earth Branch lacked strong leaders but I imagine that it wouldn't have mattered given that Galan Mossa had inside help. Had they rejected McGillis' offer, they'd still have to deal with Jasley. That said, Jasley wouldn't have been able to advance his plans nearly as fast as he did without Iok being such a willing cooperator. And even after that mess is settled, it doesn't mean things are done. As a powerful military force, their power will always be seen as a threat to others.
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Apr 3, 2017 03:47
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And someone was going to dig up that Mobile Armor sooner or later, and there's no way Gjallahorn or Tekkadan would stay on the sidelines for that. poo poo happens.
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Apr 3, 2017 04:27
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I just want to say that I'm really glad there wasn't some eleventh-hour Mobile Armor bullshit.
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Apr 3, 2017 04:35
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My biggest thing is that, even after the Galan Mossa problem, they still jumped the gun. Like yeah, the Earth branch thing is a bust, but at that point in the game, they're still Naze's protegees, so getting some work from Teiwaz was a feasible thing. Orga trying to speed the process of finding "a place to belong" was reckless, yeah, but I still think that they could've pulled through just fine. Backing McGillis at the point they did (some might argue at ANY point) was an abysmal error because, at that point in the game, to them McGillis is still "The Chocolate Man". Like yeah, he helped them in the past, but this guy is part of the same organization that (either directly or indirectly) killed several of their bros, including Biscuit, so they should know better than to throw their lot with this guy. I know, I know: McGillis is s'posed to be the "Char" and, after seeing Gaelio's art, some people went as far as saying "Gee, a little subtlety there, Okada", due to certain obvious parallels.
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Apr 3, 2017 04:39
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Wark Say posted:My biggest thing is that, even after the Galan Mossa problem, they still jumped the gun. Like yeah, the Earth branch thing is a bust, but at that point in the game, they're still Naze's protegees, so getting some work from Teiwaz was a feasible thing. Orga trying to speed the process of finding "a place to belong" was reckless, yeah, but I still think that they could've pulled through just fine. Backing McGillis at the point they did (some might argue at ANY point) was an abysmal error because, at that point in the game, to them McGillis is still "The Chocolate Man". Like yeah, he helped them in the past, but this guy is part of the same organization that (either directly or indirectly) killed several of their bros, including Biscuit, so they should know better than to throw their lot with this guy. Regardless of Tekkadan's feelings towards Gjallarhorn, it is the most powerful political and military force in the solar system and you can't really avoid interacting with it. McGillis was a powerful and influential up and coming member of that organization who offered them a mutually beneficial arrangement(which immediately paid dividends with McGillis covering up Orga's revenge murder of the guy who called in the Dawn Horizon pirates). At the time the agreement was made it made a lot of sense; Orga had no reason to believe that McGillis was dangerously insane at that point and by the time he realized it it was too late to turn it around.
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Apr 3, 2017 05:06
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Kanos posted:Except this ending explicitly does contradict that. The group that lashes out aimlessly at all of their problems is brutally smashed into the dust and scotched from the face of history after achieving absolutely nothing of worth. The "victory" they achieve in the end is that some of them get to run away and live while hiding their true identities for the remainder of their lives. The actual winner of the entire battle is the only one who was fighting with a clear objective in mind. I'd agree if the episode ended halfway through. The problem is that the second half makes it clear that reform was only possible due to Tekkadan's participation in McGillis' coup. It would work if they said that it happened in spite of it, but what we got was a change in message from "blindly follow a charismatic leader and at best your death might allow the others to escape" to "blindly follow a charismatic leader and your glorious sacrifice will fix all the world's problems".
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Apr 3, 2017 05:47
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The only thing that really feels unearned is the reform of gjallarhorn. Did anyone else ever hear Rustal voice that as a possible goal of his? He's shown to be a clever pragmatist, and his victory over mcgillis + tekkadan feels earned, but we aren't ever given a reason to suspect that of Rustal. Other than that, a satisfying ending. It did hit that imperial Japan theme mentioned before, and Iok dying means it's not all bad. I kind like the rest of the IBO universe, the restrictions they placed on themselves (no beam weapons) makes fights more engaging, and the more complex political situation is fertile ground. Maybe they could do the something with the calamity war? rudatron fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Apr 3, 2017 |
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Apr 3, 2017 06:02
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The Calamity War feels more like you'd get Mecha Attack On Titan with the MA situation.
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Apr 3, 2017 06:05
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ImpAtom posted:The Calamity War feels more like you'd get Mecha Attack On Titan with the MA situation. I'd watch that in a heartbeat if it was animated even half as good as Mika's fight with the one we got
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Apr 3, 2017 06:09
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I have to assume it was a total turkey shoot since any doofus with a dainsleif can apparently hit ms-sized targets from literal planetary orbit. No wonder they tossed the gundams into random holes in the ground after the war, what would be the point of them even with that kind of weapon floating around.
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Apr 3, 2017 06:25
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Xy Hapu posted:I have to assume it was a total turkey shoot since any doofus with a dainsleif can apparently hit ms-sized targets from literal planetary orbit. No wonder they tossed the gundams into random holes in the ground after the war, what would be the point of them even with that kind of weapon floating around. Yeah I have to say that part was kind of bullshit. I like the idea of dainsleif, but I can't help but feel like they should have just had them hit the general area and done the damage rather than pick them off directly.
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Apr 3, 2017 06:34
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rudatron posted:The only thing that really feels unearned is the reform of gjallarhorn. Did anyone else ever hear Rustal voice that as a possible goal of his? He's shown to be a clever pragmatist, and his victory over mcgillis + tekkadan feels earned, but we aren't ever given a reason to suspect that of Rustal. It seems like Rustal basically was just being pragmatic again. The seven stars were down to four, and even most of those were pretty tarnished. Gaelio and Rustal were heroes who stopped a mad rebellion, but putting yourself as god-king after thrashing someone for trying to set himself up as god-king... not going to be helpful for stability. So Rustal weakened his political enemies (since the Mars branch was helping McGillis), kept his power (a beloved democratically elected president without term limits can still get away with an awful lot), and reduced threats to Gjallarhorn (former or current human debris made up the most dangerous shock troops of all non-Gjallarhorn factions) all by realizing that times change, and you need to change with them. (Something he made a speech about earlier!) Of course, he probably had some personal inclinations towards reform in the mix, considering his treatment of Julieta, but it all kept stability, and that's enough to explain his play. On the subject of Rustal, I had a blinding flash of the obvious, and realized his opposition to McGillis is pretty well demonstrated by their choice of weapons. McGillis, obviously, goes for Bael. The ace prototype, a Gundam whose performance depends entirely on the pilot. A lovely pilot would die in seconds, but someone with talent, with strength can tear through an army. It's been pointed out that Gaelio's work in concert with Ein is a contrast, but what's Rustal's signature? The Dainsleif. A weapon that couldn't give a rat's rear end about your personal strength and talent. Point. Click. Goodbye. A few weeks training, and any graze pilot is a threat to the toughest ace alive. It's the longbow at Crecy, the knight falling to the common man, the weak allowed to defeat the strong. It's not only a direct physical victory, but a philosophical one. Kinda neat.
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Apr 3, 2017 06:48
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I think that it's kinda fitting for this show that in the end Mika and Akihiro and their legendary war machines were just put down with sniper fire by some faceless mooks
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Apr 3, 2017 06:51
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Caros posted:Yeah I have to say that part was kind of bullshit. I like the idea of dainsleif, but I can't help but feel like they should have just had them hit the general area and done the damage rather than pick them off directly. That isnt how coil or railguns work though. Especially when they have a static target on the ground and the optical equipment to aim properly. When you aim an EM-propelled weapon, it will fly straight all the way until it hits something at obscene velocity. There is no margin of error like with a conventional gunpowder weapon. Rustal had the Gundams dead to rights.
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Apr 3, 2017 07:02
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ImpAtom posted:The Calamity War feels more like you'd get Mecha Attack On Titan with the MA situation.
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Apr 3, 2017 07:04
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RottenK posted:I think that it's kinda fitting for this show that in the end Mika and Akihiro and their legendary war machines were just put down with sniper fire by some faceless mooks They had reached a point that nothing less then that type of overwhelming fire power could put them down.
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Apr 3, 2017 07:16
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If anything, it'd be a little closer to your standard monster -of-the-week mecha deal, like eva Presumably though that's be near the end, i assume the mobile armors worked for a while, before they started killing aimlessly/went crazy or whatever
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Apr 3, 2017 07:16
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Overlord K posted:I'd watch that in a heartbeat if it was animated even half as good as Mika's fight with the one we got Yeah, it seems perfect for an OVA. Get Sunrise's new light novel factory on the phone, let's make this happen rudatron posted:If anything, it'd be a little closer to your standard monster -of-the-week mecha deal, like eva I was imagining it as a Dr. Strangelove situation. MAs were a doomsday device that got unleashed
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Apr 3, 2017 07:18
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Neddy Seagoon posted:That isnt how coil or railguns work though. Especially when they have a static target on the ground and the optical equipment to aim properly. When you aim an EM-propelled weapon, it will fly straight all the way until it hits something at obscene velocity. There is no margin of error like with a conventional gunpowder weapon. They would still be subject to atmospheric forces which could push them off target, but that isn't really the biggest complaint. A rod from god falls at about mach 10, and a modern railgun fires at about mach 8. Even if you assume a Dainslief was twice, or even three times that you'd still have time from orbit to target measured in at least twenty to thirty seconds. That is a long time for both Mikazuki and Akihiro to stand (essentially) completely still. Yeah they had a couple of seconds where they saw the Gjallerhorn forces retreating, but the fact they picked off both of them directly when shooting with a thirty second delay seems a bit far fetched. It also means that Rustal's plan for killing Mika basically revolved around having Mika stand still like a dolt on a battlefield, something he isn't known for. Like I said, just a minor quibble/personal preference.
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Apr 3, 2017 07:27
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rudatron posted:The only thing that really feels unearned is the reform of gjallarhorn. Did anyone else ever hear Rustal voice that as a possible goal of his? He's shown to be a clever pragmatist, and his victory over mcgillis + tekkadan feels earned, but we aren't ever given a reason to suspect that of Rustal. chiasaur11 posted:It seems like Rustal basically was just being pragmatic again. The seven stars were down to four, and even most of those were pretty tarnished. Gaelio and Rustal were heroes who stopped a mad rebellion, but putting yourself as god-king after thrashing someone for trying to set himself up as god-king... not going to be helpful for stability. I more or less agree with both posts. It feels unearned because it seems to come out of nowhere, but it's a fairly logical and pragmatic move on Rustal's part. He's never expressed personal ambitions for being the most powerful person in Gjallarhorn or the whole world, and he's largely obsessed with stability. Plus, him backing reform kind of paves over the accusations leveled against him before. Sure, there's going to be some upheaval from Mars going independent but it's clearly preferable than keeping things the way they are and having to knock down each new challenger that comes. He also spreads out the responsibility for stability too. The new Mars government has to handle itself, and by leading the reforms and building a popular reputation for himself, he ensures that when Mars needs help, it's his guiding hand that they'll have to grab. And when he's gone, he's set up Julieta to be his successor. Someone he's been more or less teaching. She might not be Rustal 2.0, but she respects and understands his values.
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Apr 3, 2017 07:49
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chiasaur11 posted:It seems like Rustal basically was just being pragmatic again. The seven stars were down to four, and even most of those were pretty tarnished. Gaelio and Rustal were heroes who stopped a mad rebellion, but putting yourself as god-king after thrashing someone for trying to set himself up as god-king... not going to be helpful for stability. This is a very good summary of the overall situation, but minor point of order here in that you're really looking for crossbows or firearms rather than longbows. Those actually required a lot of training to use, so they don't really fit the "just give a random mook a mobile suit with a Dainsleif and a few weeks of instruction and they can take down seasoned elites" image - the longbow section of English armies WAS a significant chunk of their elite troops. The major advantage of longbows over knights is that they were cheaper to field (due to not requiring horse, metal armor, metal weapons, etc.), not that it required any less training.
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Apr 3, 2017 07:59
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I think if the episode had just one or two more scenes of Rustal reacting to the death of Iok and to the overall losses he accumulated may have helped foreshadow the reform a little better. It's not THAT much of a stretch for Rustal to do what he did, but it would have been nice for us to see that moment when he thinks to himself that the death of Iok and Julietta's victory were massive moments for the organization.
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Apr 3, 2017 07:59
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Lord Koth posted:This is a very good summary of the overall situation, but minor point of order here in that you're really looking for crossbows or firearms rather than longbows. Those actually required a lot of training to use, so they don't really fit the "just give a random mook a mobile suit with a Dainsleif and a few weeks of instruction and they can take down elites" image - the longbow section of English armies WAS a significant chunk of their elite troops. The major advantage of longbows over knights is that they were cheaper to field (due to not requiring horse, metal armor, metal weapons, etc.), not that it required any less training. Yeah, 'begin with the grandfather', and that. I was just thinking of the Warren Ellis depiction of Crecy, where the focus was on how it upended the natural order, not that it quite matched one for one. Good point, to be clear.
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Apr 3, 2017 08:01
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ImpAtom posted:I have a hard time going "Boy, I'm sure glad Nobliss died" when his involvement was "he had people watching a place and they killed a guy without him even knowing" in a setting where we're supposed to be cheering for space mafia guys. I mean Nobliss is a poo poo but I'm not sure what makes him more of a poo poo than Teiwaz is. McMurdo and Teiwaz never specifically ran a media campaign to sell a massacre of children, and Tekkadan always pay their debts. Plus, Nobliss has been on their poo poo list for a long, long time for Dort.
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Apr 3, 2017 08:15
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Re: Rustal mood swing If Rustal hadn't reformed things a bit Juileta would have once she took over since she seemed to get poo poo sucks. I imagine Gali has his dad's seat if he wants it. I chalk the reasoning up to Rustal wanting to legacy the hell out of himself to make sure people saw him in the right of things. Re: Nobliss' greatest crime Nobliss had to die because Orga died shielding Ride as a hail of bullets rained upon them from his men. That's the only reason Ride cared about as he murdered a man making GBS threads with Mika and Orga's gun. The kid even had on Orga's scarf from the first season. And that fat sack of poo poo couldn't even remember his name. That's why I enjoyed Nobliss Gordon dying. Fat and Useless fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Apr 3, 2017 |
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Apr 3, 2017 08:49
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Microcline posted:I'd agree if the episode ended halfway through. The problem is that the second half makes it clear that reform was only possible due to Tekkadan's participation in McGillis' coup. It would work if they said that it happened in spite of it, but what we got was a change in message from "blindly follow a charismatic leader and at best your death might allow the others to escape" to "blindly follow a charismatic leader and your glorious sacrifice will fix all the world's problems". I just rewatched the back half of the episode and I have no idea how you come to this reading. How does Tekkadan's participation in McGillis's coup have any bearing whatsoever on Rustal's postwar plans, nevermind being critical to said plans? The only thing they meaningfully contribute to that plan is the death of Iok Kujan, and that was completely unplanned and only occurred to the personal stupidity of Iok. Everything Rustal does would have logically made sense even if Tekkadan had never joined McGillis and McGillis had died in orbit around Earth. If you want to pick on a character for "blindly follow a charismatic leader and your glorious sacrifice will fix all the world's problems", it would be McGillis and his revolution because it's McGillis's coup that makes Rustal's reform project happen. Tekkadan's destruction is largely an incidental propaganda victory rather than anything important in the grand scheme of things, and this is reflected by the statement that people barely remember who the hell Tekkadan are besides people who worked for The Great Satan McGillis.
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Apr 3, 2017 16:45
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I liked the ending a lot. They should have given more hints to rustal's plan though as it's kind of abrupt. It's not the worse thing in the world. I'm also sorta glad that a gundam series actually had the balls to have the protagonist die. There hasn't been a really bittersweet ending to a gundam show since zeta (I'm not counting OVA's here).
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Apr 3, 2017 16:51
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Kanos posted:I just rewatched the back half of the episode and I have no idea how you come to this reading. How does Tekkadan's participation in McGillis's coup have any bearing whatsoever on Rustal's postwar plans, nevermind being critical to said plans? The only thing they meaningfully contribute to that plan is the death of Iok Kujan, and that was completely unplanned and only occurred to the personal stupidity of Iok. Everything Rustal does would have logically made sense even if Tekkadan had never joined McGillis and McGillis had died in orbit around Earth. It did though. For most of the show he was quite willing to write Tekkadan off as space rats but in his final order during the epilogue he doesn't call them rats but beasts and monsters and while that was mostly directed at Mikazuki, it did show a change in opinion for Rustal. So if he is hoping to bring back his precious stability it is now crucial for him to prevent the emergence of groups like Tekkadan by making it so that the default option for destitute children is not becoming mobile suit pilots.
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Apr 3, 2017 16:57
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not only that, but making it so that default option doesn't turn them into instant high-tier pilots of insanely powerful mobile suits that can tear apart entire armies and keep going after they've been functionally nuked from orbit I think that's a thing not to be overlooked about Iok Kujan's death - he stepped in there because they directly nailed these Gundams with literally the most powerful weapon of humanity's invention, and they were STILL running, and he STILL died - and Julietta was there, and she watched this happen, and everyone would believe her when she said something needed to be done because she was literally the flagship hero who finally took the Gundam's head. She probably had a significant hand in advising Rustal to make sure something like Tekkadan could never rise up again - after all, she was insistent about staying completely untouched by anything like the A-V, and now she has a horror story about exactly what it turns people into. So Rustal has more or less complete control of Earth after it's all said and done, he knows strategically how dangerous Tekkadan and anything similar can be in the hands of some charismatic rear end in a top hat, the second most powerful person to him. The biggest name on Mars is Kudelia, who has direct personal motivations for doing away with child soldiers and Human Debris. Right behind him he has Julietta, someone who is a public hero on a scale not seen since Kaieru and the original Seven Stars, who ALSO has personal motivations for making sure the warriors of the world aren't insane inhuman meat processors for crazy ancient war machines of which very few have known locations. Teiwaz is still powerful, and the two big names there, McMurdo and Azee, both had deep connections to Tekkadan, with Azee in particular particularly driven by the death of her close friend from this whole mess. The Seven Stars themselves are in shambles, with three of their brightest stars dead and a fourth occupied with rehabilitation while the other two are no-names - I don't know how the Seven Stars work, but if it is at all dynastic in nature, there are exceedingly likely to be succession conflicts in the wake of there being openings for exceedingly powerful positions. And the singular thing Rustal cares about is stability. There is nothing less stable than refusing to do away with something the public at large will clamor for you to do, or something almost all of the most powerful kingpins around you are clamoring for you to do, and while you're sitting large as a hero who kept the solar system safe, you might as well reform the system to shield it from the likelihood of coming succession crises and wars between petty nobles and claimants to the throne of the Seven Stars. I think Rustal's decision is obvious when you look carefully at how exactly the solar system will be administrated in the years following the attempted coup, and I don't think his motivation changed at all. He was someone willing to defy tradition in the name of stability, and now that he's the only Star worth a drat he has both the means and a good reason to see the current system as unsustainable.
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Apr 3, 2017 17:39
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Kanos posted:I just rewatched the back half of the episode and I have no idea how you come to this reading. How does Tekkadan's participation in McGillis's coup have any bearing whatsoever on Rustal's postwar plans, nevermind being critical to said plans? The only thing they meaningfully contribute to that plan is the death of Iok Kujan, and that was completely unplanned and only occurred to the personal stupidity of Iok. Everything Rustal does would have logically made sense even if Tekkadan had never joined McGillis and McGillis had died in orbit around Earth. Crushing them utterly was important to reestablish the legitimacy of gjallerhorn as king poo poo, which was the only reason the reforms could be passed in the first place. If he has just murdered McGillis and his fleet then the various economic blocks/space mafia/whatever look at gjallerhorn and see them as weak. They got trumped in Edmonton by child soldiers and then had a large internal rift that led to significant damage to the earth orbit fleet. That doesn't project power, that projects weakness and an insecure house. Going after Tekkadan, and Mika in particular, reestablished the old Gjallerhorn myth of killing demons, wiped out the Edmonton loss and showed that if you messed with Gjallerhorn it didn't matter how strong you were, they would mess you up. That was even the point of his whole threat to Orga and why he didn't let them surrender. It wasn't enough to beat them. He had to obliterate them.
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Apr 3, 2017 18:07
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