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Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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33 | 6.38% |
| No |
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343 | 66.34% |
| Keith Ellison |
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54 | 10.44% |
| Pete Buttigieg |
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71 | 13.73% |
| Jehmu Green |
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16 | 3.09% |
| Total: | 416 votes | ||
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Frijolero posted:
Crowsbeak posted:Oh 
Kilroy fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Apr 3, 2017 |
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Apr 3, 2017 16:40
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If you think most Trump voters are racist, you're straight up falling for culture war bullshit 
JC saying Stronger Together was a good idea.
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Majorian posted:Do you really think very many high-profile leftists and left-Democrats are going to do the former? That is the main question, Trump essentially ran an economic justice platform (I'll bring back your jobs and give you cheap healthcare) combined with a shitton of identity politics, so is opposing that with just an actual leftist (ie. not more milquetoast liberalism) economic campaign going to work? Republicans are going to learn a lot from this election, and in the future may find a candidate not totally laden down with all Trump's baggage to deliver a similar message that doesn't completely alienate a ton of potential voters. Kilroy posted:Eh, most of them are, though. If you think they're racist and that therefore they're irredeemable garbage people with no hope or interest in changing and who can't be worked with both to find common ground and to help them see the error of their ways, then you're falling for culture war bullshit. Yeah, this is my point about the 'everyday americans' thing, a hell of a lot of Trump voters are racist, even if they don't think they are, but it doesn't make them completely lost causes, unless they're the part of the base which goes around screaming about pizzagate, and nuking the middle east. El Pollo Blanco fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Apr 3, 2017 |
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Apr 3, 2017 16:48
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Oh come on, is it really racism if promoting ethnic cleansing isn't a dealbreaker for your vote? yes
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Apr 3, 2017 16:51
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JeffersonClay posted:Is there an important distinction between plenty and most here? Is there a difference between most Clinton voters being virtually just as racist as Trump voters?
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Apr 3, 2017 17:20
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El Pollo Blanco posted:a hell of a lot of Trump voters are racist, even if they don't think they are This is a big part of the problem. Lower class whites, as much as they are white and still have more power than brown people, should not be demonized and ostracized for holding racist notions. And we can't wait for them to die off (this is the solution I hear Liberals use the most). I have personally been subject to racism (offline and online). But I don't blame lower class whites for it, I blame the system which allows racist notions to thrive. Neither party has done much to address the root causes of racism (poverty, lack of education, de facto segregation). "Trump said racist things and he got racist votes." Ok, what do we do about it? Do we double down on Liberal half-measures or do we address things that will diminish the power of racism? (Ending war on drugs, expanding social programs, etc.) Even Hillary acknowledged this in the other half of her deplorables speech. The problem is that Dems acknowledge these things, but don't act on them.
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Apr 3, 2017 17:21
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Is there a difference between most Clinton voters being virtually just as racist as Trump voters? Lot of New Democrats are racist and classist, but we still like to keep them around for votes.
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Apr 3, 2017 17:22
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JeffersonClay posted:Maybe we could come up with a slogan like "stronger together" and elevate awesome nonwhite immigrants in our campaign to try and win them over. Like if we could find an immigrant, who's a gold star parent, who loves the constitution and who the Reublican candidate has insulted, we could really change some minds. Ooh, maybe he's a Muslim too. That would be dynamite! These are all very superficial things.
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Apr 3, 2017 17:25
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The fact that someone listed "elevated nonwhite immigrants in our campaign" as proof that Clinton was doing a good attempt at convincing minority voters to support her is insane.
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Apr 3, 2017 17:33
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Pedro De Heredia posted:These are all very superficial things. What do you expect from Democrats. Substantive policy wouldn't be very popular with the donor class
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Apr 3, 2017 17:37
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Just write a paragraph, host it somewhere, and loving link to it, Tweet chains are the most annoying loving thing to read.
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Apr 3, 2017 17:43
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So Koala going to actually post something or are you just going to randomly post someone elses tweets?
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Apr 3, 2017 17:44
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These sick twitter burns will really show those hicks what for! 
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Apr 3, 2017 17:45
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WampaLord posted:Just write a paragraph, host it somewhere, and loving link to it, Tweet chains are the most annoying loving thing to read. Good.
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Apr 3, 2017 17:45
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Also, why the random twitter rant in the "democrats" thread? Is that from some pol or is this now the "twitter idpol rants thread".
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Apr 3, 2017 17:45
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Crowsbeak posted:So Koala going to actually post something or are you just going to randomly post someone elses tweets? I believe that is posting something. But here you go: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/01/opinion/sunday/in-trump-country-shock-at-trump-budget-cuts-but-still-loyalty.html
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Apr 3, 2017 17:45
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I'll go ahead and step on a landmine, but Trump's whole feud with the Khans was loving ridiculous, embarrassing, racist, and every other bad thing you can say, and it dropped his standing in the polls. But, deep into his psychotic ramblings, he brought up something important: Clinton voted for the war in Iraq. There's something bizarre and unsettling about a person who voted for, and defended that vote, having ads related to someone who died in that war as a positive. Which is kind of the thing with Trump. He's a ridiculous, horrible man, but he's attacking people who say and do all kinds of hosed up things, so some of his attacks work.
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Apr 3, 2017 17:46
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A most insightful tweetstorm. Thank you for your contribution. You're never going to change racists minds, and the thing is the *vast* majority of the electorate is white. And even the minority electorate isn't some homogeneous hive mind, despite certain poster's insistence that they represent the Swarm. You have to find common ground with people you don't like to pass policy that takes the sting out of racism. In no world will Becky McCrackerson give two fucks about black people. You can't make her. And honestly in no world will Kandy Blackerson give two fucks about white people. Trying to appeal to the good in their hearts isn't going to work. All politics are local. Give them something they both like on an individual level.
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Apr 3, 2017 17:46
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blackguy32 posted:I believe that is posting something. But here you go: Come on, spit out what you want to say. Also LOL @ Koalas saying she;s proud she's being annoying. Rather than actually explaining what she wants to say.
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Apr 3, 2017 17:49
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Anytime someone calls out poor whites as racist hicks I remember the Horse Apples episode from Wonder Showzen. The contempt for "middle america" whites during the Bush years is palpable. And while it is funny to make fun of racist hicks, it's not a winning strategy. btw I loving love that episode so im torn Frijolero fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Apr 3, 2017 |
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Apr 3, 2017 17:53
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Crowsbeak posted:Come on, spit out what you want to say. Also LOL @ Koalas saying she;s proud she's being annoying. Rather than actually explaining what she wants to say. Those dumb racists did a self-own harr harr harr /culture wars
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Apr 3, 2017 17:59
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JeffersonClay posted:Maybe we could come up with a slogan like "stronger together" and elevate awesome nonwhite immigrants in our campaign to try and win them over. Like if we could find an immigrant, who's a gold star parent, who loves the constitution and who the Reublican candidate has insulted, we could really change some minds. Ooh, maybe he's a Muslim too. That would be dynamite! Your lame ideas doomed us all Hth
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Apr 3, 2017 18:03
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Pedro De Heredia posted:The fact that someone listed "elevated nonwhite immigrants in our campaign" as proof that Clinton was doing a good attempt at convincing minority voters to support her is insane. it was being proffered against the argument of "just have a message that immigrants are real Americans too and then the whole racial resentment towards welfare will disappear"
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Apr 3, 2017 18:03
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:it was being proffered against the argument of "just have a message that immigrants are real Americans too and then the whole racial resentment towards welfare will disappear" Then she picked Tim Kaine as a strategy to reach out to Latino voters 
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Apr 3, 2017 18:07
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Then she picked Tim Kaine as a strategy to reach out to Latino voters I thought it was "win Virginia" with a side of "he speaks Spanish" which I thought was dumb (for the record, I wanted Tom Perez)
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Apr 3, 2017 18:14
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Crowsbeak posted:Come on, spit out what you want to say. Also LOL @ Koalas saying she;s proud she's being annoying. Rather than actually explaining what she wants to say. I think she laughing that you don't get it. That yall are saying just provide them with better social programs and they will support you, when while they do care, they care more about hurting minorities and protecting whiteness.
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Apr 3, 2017 18:16
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Crowsbeak posted:Oh I don't know whether it was a good or bad idea. But it was obviously about defending a pluralistic society and immigrants. That didn't work. Maybe that was because Hillary was bad at politics, and a better campaign with a better candidate would have succeeded with similar policies and themes. But I don't think you can credibly suggest that's the case with pluralism and not with economic policy. WampaLord posted:Yea I remember that guy. That was a great moment, 4 months before the election. I'm sure lots of voters had it in mind on Election Day. He campaigned extensively after the convention and his feud with trump featured prominently in advertising.
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Apr 3, 2017 18:19
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As a Mexican, hearing Tim Kaine speak Spanish on the campaign trail was actually nice. But that's all it was, a nice engagement tool. Hillary may have had solid support in high Latino areas, but she still only got 65% of the Latino vote, compared to Obama's 71%. And it's not surprising considering that Hillary and Obama have done diddly-squat for us in the past 8 years.
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Apr 3, 2017 18:19
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blackguy32 posted:I think she laughing that you don't get it. That yall are saying just provide them with better social programs and they will support you, when while they do care, they care more about hurting minorities and protecting whiteness. Most people are not sociopaths and caricatures. Again, there's a difference between the core Trump supporter (well off, bigoted, selfish) and the millions of people who did not vote, were on the fence, misguided low information voters etc.
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Apr 3, 2017 18:21
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steinrokkan posted:Most people are not sociopaths and caricatures. ...those tweets are making fun of the recent spat of legitimate "profiles" of Trump voters.
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Apr 3, 2017 18:23
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:...those tweets are making fun of the recent spat of legitimate "profiles" of Trump voters. I don't know what the point of those tweets is if any, but I'm responding to bg32's idea that most people would rather die of hunger in a ditch if their black neighbors died before them in a slightly worse ditch.
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Apr 3, 2017 18:25
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Ya'll are making excuses for people who are willing to cut off their own noses in order to preserve white supremacy. You missed the point and instead made a weird tone argument type shitpost because twitter And the posts after were quite revealing in their own ways and I'm not surprised to see the usual suspects show up in order to protect these poor racists who hosed themselves over because they wanted to hurt other human beings because of melanin and/or a slightly different religion. These racists, some of whom do actually exist, I have met them, should never be welcomed to the democratic party. Full stop.
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Apr 3, 2017 18:25
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Koalas March posted:Ya'll are making excuses for people who are willing to cut off their own noses in order to preserve white supremacy. Fully agreed. This is a large part of why making one of them who had proclaimed young black men superpredators, and lobbied for a wall on the border to prevent those dang mexicans from sneaking in, and whose supporters were measurably more racist than Bernie's our candidate for president of the united states was a stupid idea.
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Apr 3, 2017 18:27
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I thought it was "win Virginia" with a side of "he speaks Spanish" which I thought was dumb (for the record, I wanted Tom Perez) Perez would have been a much better pick, I agree. El Pollo Blanco posted:That is the main question, Trump essentially ran an economic justice platform (I'll bring back your jobs and give you cheap healthcare) combined with a shitton of identity politics, so is opposing that with just an actual leftist (ie. not more milquetoast liberalism) economic campaign going to work? Republicans are going to learn a lot from this election, and in the future may find a candidate not totally laden down with all Trump's baggage to deliver a similar message that doesn't completely alienate a ton of potential voters. The Dems had probably better get to occupying that space on the political spectrum, then - otherwise, they will not win another presidential election until white people are a minority. So...2043.
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Apr 3, 2017 18:28
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And the usual suspects have flocked to point out that welfare state is bad because some of its supporters might be racist, even if the pitching of the welfare state concept has nothing to do with it, and specifically targets people who are not self proclaimed white supremacists due to the intersectional profile of people who would be interested in big gubermint overreach in the first place.
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Apr 3, 2017 18:28
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steinrokkan posted:I don't know what the point of those tweets is if any, but I'm responding to bg32's idea that most people would rather die of hunger in a ditch if their black neighbors died before them in a slightly worse ditch. That is literally what the people in these articles are saying, dude. They're surprised that the policies are going to hurt them, but they're still proud of their vote because he's gonna stick it to the immigrants. steinrokkan posted:And the usual suspects have flocked to point out that welfare state is bad because some of its supporters might be racist, even if the pitching of the welfare state concept has nothing to do with it, and specifically targets people who are not self proclaimed white supremacists due to the intersectional profile of people who would be interested in big gubermint overreach in the first place. THAT'S NOT THE GODDAMN POINT. The point is you're unlikely to ever actually get a lot of these voters by expanding the welfare state; you'll only get these voters by supporting the racist bullshit. Nobody is arguing against expanding the welfare state. I'm certainly not, at least. Either supporting or ignoring racist bullshit can not happen and is non-negotiable. Hopefully, some people will be won over by promoting true progressive economic reform, but I am not optimistic about that, and I worry that the left will take an easier solution and just stop talking about minorities. BRAKE FOR MOOSE fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Apr 3, 2017 |
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Apr 3, 2017 18:28
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Ze Pollack posted:Fully agreed. Don't forget welfare reform.
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Apr 3, 2017 18:29
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:That is literally what the people in these articles are saying, dude. They're surprised that the policies are going to hurt them, but they're still proud of their vote because he's gonna stick it to the immigrants. They were proud of their vote for Bush in 2000 and '04 too, but they turned against him in 2006 when he tried to privatize social security. Trump is getting a head start on going down that stupid, stupid road. The Democrats have an amazing opportunity to take back the government in four years' time. They should take it. e: I mean, I get that that's what people are saying in those articles, and it's ridiculous that each and every article on this topic only discusses poor white people. There are a lot of black people in those states who didn't get catered to in the 2016 campaign, and aren't being listened to now, and I can't even begin to imagine how dispiriting that must be. Left Democrats must not take minority votes for granted; if they do, they will be as screwed as they are now. But we have a really, really stupid system for electing presidents in this country, one that gives rural and working class voters in the Rust Belt a disproportionate amount of power in making that decision. The Dems need to make up the gap one way or another. If Cohn's data in the New York Times piece is correct, it's going to require a combination of getting out non-voters, and peeling off pieces of Trump's coalition. Majorian fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Apr 3, 2017 |
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Apr 3, 2017 18:31
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:That is literally what the people in these articles are saying, dude. They're surprised that the policies are going to hurt them, but they're still proud of their vote because he's gonna stick it to the immigrants. Lots of them, yes. But of the tens of millions of people who voted Trump / didn't vote at all, there is certainly at least a margin of people who do not share this mentality, and a small margin would have been sufficient to tip the election. It makes no sense to say that because of the most idiotic voters there should categorically be no outreach whatsoever.
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Apr 3, 2017 18:31
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