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Maluco Marinero posted:lol it's how men thought programming was going to work when they decided programming was 'women's work'. (it didn't) Dirk the Average posted:It's also analogous to how engineers and technicians work in R&D. An R&D engineer writes test protocols and reports, and technicians execute the protocols and reports. Engineers are also expected to do the executions from time to time depending on staffing levels and seniority. Of course sexism is a major systemic problem in engineering professions, and was especially in the past. However, one thing that people conveniently leave out when they go on their spiel about how programming used to be women's work and once it became a man's job, it became extremely lucrative is that software & process automation has killed a lot of the lower-skilled jobs in engineering, and now there aren't as many technician and lower-skilled jobs in engineering as there used to be. To equate the really highly-compensated, tip-top talent software engineer jobs in Silicon Valley with the ENIAC programmer jobs during WWII is more than a little misleading.
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Apr 4, 2017 16:23
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silence_kit posted:Of course sexism is a major systemic problem in engineering professions, and was especially in the past. However, one thing that people conveniently leave out when they go on their spiel about how programming used to be women's work and once it became a man's job, it became extremely lucrative is that software & process automation has killed a lot of the lower-skilled jobs in engineering, and now there aren't as many technician and lower-skilled jobs in engineering as there used to be. To equate the really highly-compensated, tip-top talent software engineer jobs in Silicon Valley with the ENIAC programmer jobs during WWII is more than a little misleading.
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Apr 4, 2017 16:37
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Working on the team that literally invented the computer: less valuable than being a dev at Nachr, an app that provides home delivery of nacho ingredients in the Bay area and NYC.
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Apr 4, 2017 16:59
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TheScott2K posted:Working on the team that literally invented the computer: less valuable than being a dev at Nachr, an app that provides home delivery of nacho ingredients in the Bay area and NYC. Please tell me that was a joke and not an actual startup.
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Apr 4, 2017 17:05
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MiddleOne posted:Please tell me that was a joke and not an actual startup. At this point, I can't tell fact from fiction with startups either. 
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Apr 4, 2017 17:08
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https://twitter.com/feldpos/status/848554527204794368 Wow these people are sensitive!
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Apr 4, 2017 17:08
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MiddleOne posted:Please tell me that was a joke and not an actual startup. I just made it up but that doesn't mean it can't be real, all you have to do is open your minds and your checkbooks...
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Apr 4, 2017 17:14
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silence_kit posted:To equate the really highly-compensated, tip-top talent software engineer jobs in Silicon Valley with the ENIAC programmer jobs during WWII is more than a little misleading. Yeah, the ENIAC programmer jobs were far more important and difficult.
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Apr 4, 2017 17:16
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Never was red text more apposite. Obviously a huge reason why the women ENIAC programmers weren't doing more highly skilled work was because they weren't afforded the opportunities to do so. However there is a hidden assumption in that narrative which is that software/engineering jobs are all the same and that the nature of software/engineering jobs hasn't changed in 80 years, which is kind of wrong.
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Apr 4, 2017 17:20
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this is true, they've gotten much easier and lucrative as they've become increasingly dominated by men who are, generally, lazy spoiled pissbabies
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Apr 4, 2017 17:22
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Rhesus Pieces posted:https://twitter.com/feldpos/status/848554527204794368 I've only ever worked in the OS-development/language-development side of the industry, so I have a weird POV. I thought the top-down "senior guy designs the whole thing, junior guy just implements from detailed spec" model was deader than Haman. Is it still common?
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Apr 4, 2017 17:37
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Wow. "You left a bad Amazon review, therefore we're bricking your device." Well the funny thing about that device, is that it was an indiegogo project: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/garadget-app-smartphone#/ Which uh, adds a camera to show that your garage door is in fact closed, and allows you to remotely close or open your garage door when you're out of visible range, by controlling your actual garage door opener.
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Apr 4, 2017 17:52
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Expose the opening and closing of my garage door to the internet at large? What could go wrong!
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Apr 4, 2017 17:54
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Wow. "You left a bad Amazon review, therefore we're bricking your device." Boo!!! Beep! BEEP!
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Apr 4, 2017 17:59
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I've only ever worked in the OS-development/language-development side of the industry, so I have a weird POV. I thought the top-down "senior guy designs the whole thing, junior guy just implements from detailed spec" model was deader than Haman. Is it still common?
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Apr 4, 2017 18:05
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Groovelord Neato posted:why are these people so bad at renaming/naming new poo poo. alphabet. oath. xi. academi. well in those cases they were deliberately trying to disassociate their company with the previous name, but using an actual word might have been helpful.
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Apr 4, 2017 19:11
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Xae posted:A programmer is a developer with little or no autonomy. They receive a specification that details what they are going to build. They are told to build a function that takes parameters A, B and C and then runs them through formula D and returns result E. No one cares about or respects these definitions of yours.
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Apr 4, 2017 19:35
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I don't think you read his entire post.
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Apr 4, 2017 19:36
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WrenP-Complete posted:Boo!!! Beep! BEEP! What did I say?
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Apr 4, 2017 19:40
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Mozi posted:I don't think you read his entire post. That's the thing - these aren't actual titles, so no one cares that someone with 20 years of experience is called a programmer. The nomenclature is fake. I'm a machine learning phd, and my title is developer.
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Apr 4, 2017 19:41
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boner confessor posted:this is true, they've gotten much easier and lucrative as they've become increasingly dominated by men who are, generally, lazy spoiled pissbabies Speaking as a lazy spoiled pissbaby and a man in tech I agree with this post.
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Apr 4, 2017 20:08
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a foolish pianist posted:That's the thing - these aren't actual titles, so no one cares that someone with 20 years of experience is called a programmer. The nomenclature is fake. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that he said the exact same thing, that the titles don't matter. FWIW I'm called a software engineer for the sole reason that it sounds more impressive.
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Apr 4, 2017 20:10
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Arsenic Lupin posted:What did I say? Did I misunderstand you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haman#Purim_traditions quote:A special noisemaker called in Hebrew a ra'ashan (רעשן) (in Yiddish: "gregger" or "hamandreyir") is used to express disdain for Haman.
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Apr 4, 2017 20:14
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WrenP-Complete posted:Did I misunderstand you? Ohhhhh. I was referring to the book of Esther, yes, but I didn't know about that Purim tradition. Sounds like enormous fun! (I'm Christian, but I always loved reading Esther when I was a child.)
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Apr 4, 2017 20:56
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I've only ever worked in the OS-development/language-development side of the industry, so I have a weird POV. I thought the top-down "senior guy designs the whole thing, junior guy just implements from detailed spec" model was deader than Haman. Is it still common? At my shop we have a rather top down approach but I guess that's what happens when our DMTS (Distinguished Member of Technical Staff) was one of the people who wrote the IEEE spec. In day to day operations developers are left to their own.
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Apr 4, 2017 20:57
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Mozi posted:I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that he said the exact same thing, that the titles don't matter. (Being pedantic here) He implied that those were/are the standards for position titles but "lol anything goes nowadays in SV". We're saying that the jobs were never organized in a system like that and the first part of his post is an opinion. Same for "Architect" and "Senior __" in tech, the meaning is totally subjective and we should ignore people whining about 20-somethings with "inflated" titles. We're not ABET-accredited engineers, we don't have a governing body, and this poo poo is every-person-for-themselves. Like you said about "Engineer", go for what the MBAs think is most impressive Analytic Engine fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 21:05
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a foolish pianist posted:I'm a machine learning phd, and my title is developer.
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Apr 4, 2017 21:13
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Analytic Engine posted:Like you said about "Engineer", go for what the MBAs think is mist impressive In that case, just call me 'Grand High Exalted Mistwalker Technician (2nd grade)'
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Apr 4, 2017 21:16
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a foolish pianist posted:No one cares about or respects these definitions of yours. The tech world certainly doesn't. There's no pecking order between a Programmer, a Software Developer, a Software Engineer, or a Software Analyst. Hell, one company's senior developer is another's junior. But, in the H1B world, they do care. In the government's eyes, a Software Developer is the architect up high that designs the system, and a Programmer is the code monkey that writes it all out. It seems to be only H1B workers with the title "Programmer" that are in trouble.
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Apr 4, 2017 21:27
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Mozi posted:In that case, just call me 'Grand High Exalted Mistwalker Technician (2nd grade)' You're hired, it'll make the team look better at the next presentation for our VCs
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Apr 4, 2017 21:59
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Orkiec posted:There's no pecking order between a Programmer, a Software Developer, a Software Engineer, or a Software Analyst True, though from what I've seen in NYC the same doesn't apply to Data Analysts / Data Engineers / Data Scientists. There's blatant elitism and snobbery in engineering departments over only hiring PhDs or exceptional Masters holders into Data Science roles. We have a lot of bitter 35+ year old statisticians who've been doing unsexy underpaid work for 10 years, and now that the job is popular and supported with better tools they couldn't be more jealous of the new kids.
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Apr 4, 2017 22:11
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Remember that guy who stole self-driving car prototypes from Google to start his own business, and then sold that business to Uber? Turns out he was still working for Google at the time he did it. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/uber-exec-accused-of-stealing-from-google-made-120m-while-working-on-the-side/ quote:According to a Google document filed in court yesterday, Levandowski created "competing side businesses" as early as 2012 while he was still working for Google. That's when Levandowski is said to have incorporated a company called Odin Wave LLC, with a physical address at a building he owned in Berkeley, California. quote:Levandowski not only started work on his competing self-driving car business while he still worked at Google, he tried to recruit more Googlers to join him, according to the filing. He worked together with a partner who also was at Google and whose name is redacted from the filings. However, as TechCrunch notes in its review of the new documents, the work history described matches that of Otto cofounder Lior Ron.
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Apr 4, 2017 22:31
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I've only ever worked in the OS-development/language-development side of the industry, so I have a weird POV. I thought the top-down "senior guy designs the whole thing, junior guy just implements from detailed spec" model was deader than Haman. Is it still common? The industry uses neither "engineer designs, programmer implements" nor "senior designs, junior implements" and in many parts of it has never used that kind of process.
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Apr 4, 2017 23:36
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Doggles posted:Remember that guy who stole self-driving car prototypes from Google to start his own business, and then sold that business to Uber? Turns out he was still working for Google at the time he did it. Jesus they are proper hosed, next it'll turn out he's got a mycrimes.txt hanging around too.
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Apr 5, 2017 01:08
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Analytic Engine posted:(Being pedantic here) He implied that those were/are the standards for position titles but "lol anything goes nowadays in SV". We're saying that the jobs were never organized in a system like that and the first part of his post is an opinion. Same for "Architect" and "Senior __" in tech, the meaning is totally subjective and we should ignore people whining about 20-somethings with "inflated" titles. We're not ABET-accredited engineers, we don't have a governing body, and this poo poo is every-person-for-themselves. Like you said about "Engineer", go for what the MBAs think is most impressive This is not pedantic at all for anyone in the industry. Titles are nearly non-comparitory between companies and are also used in lieu of actual monetary compensation for those who don't know better. "Engineer" "Junior" "Senior" have literally mo meaning outside of the context of a specific company when it relates to software and network people. "Engineer" was coopted and never should have been (I've spent most of my career as some level of network "engineer" and having that word in my title makes me cringe) and the rest is completely arbitrary.
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Apr 5, 2017 01:52
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Wow. "You left a bad Amazon review, therefore we're bricking your device." *spins ratchet*
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Apr 5, 2017 02:31
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silence_kit posted:Of course sexism is a major systemic problem in engineering professions, and was especially in the past. However, one thing that people conveniently leave out when they go on their spiel about how programming used to be women's work and once it became a man's job, it became extremely lucrative is that software & process automation has killed a lot of the lower-skilled jobs in engineering, and now there aren't as many technician and lower-skilled jobs in engineering as there used to be. To equate the really highly-compensated, tip-top talent software engineer jobs in Silicon Valley with the ENIAC programmer jobs during WWII is more than a little misleading. Last I checked, ENIAC didn't exist until after WWII. Edit: To clarify, was operational. The project started during WWII - but nobody was programming it at the time. Shooting Blanks fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 07:53
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In my experience specs are usually written by a nontechnical product manager/designer, unless the task is highly technical or the team is too small to have a PM, in which case it's pretty much whoever on the team knows about the topic and has time.
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Apr 5, 2017 11:04
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Doggles posted:Remember that guy who stole self-driving car prototypes from Google to start his own business, and then sold that business to Uber? Turns out he was still working for Google at the time he did it. And new updates roll in. Now Uber/that guy are claiming they can't disclose anything related to the acquisition on grounds of self-incrimination in criminal proceedings. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/ubers-levandowski-really-doesnt-want-to-talk-about-any-waymo-documents quote:When Uber bought Anthony Levandowski's startup Otto for $680 million, an unnamed third party conducted a "due diligence review." Now, Levandowski and his lawyers are fighting hard to keep that review under wraps. What the gently caress did they do? 
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Apr 5, 2017 15:33
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axeil posted:And new updates roll in. Now Uber/that guy are claiming they can't disclose anything related to the acquisition on grounds of self-incrimination in criminal proceedings. Uber took a bunch of VC and paid a Google executive to commit industrial espionage
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Apr 5, 2017 15:45
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