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Crowsbeak posted:You are constantly wrong about history. I haven't made any claims about history. Just how drunk are you?
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Apr 4, 2017 02:47
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Who What Now posted:I haven't made any claims about history. Just how drunk are you? You have stood by bad claims.
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Apr 4, 2017 03:03
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CountFosco posted:It's not wrong to talk about some brands of Christianity, but it is wrong to conflate certain brands of Christianity with the whole. Fundamentalist Christians are, globally, in the minority. They just seem like the biggest because they're relatively popular in america and they get a looooot of press. Squeaky wheel and all that. Roman Catholics are the single biggest denomination at 1.272 billion, and the Eastern Orthodox represent the second biggest unified denomination at approximately 270 million. Protestants are larger than that at 800 million, but within Protestantism the beliefs, doctrines, and ideas are so diverse that it's really difficult to know how many of those protestants are literalist fundamentalists. According to wiki, methodism represents at least 50 million protestants, and methodists are among the most progressive Christians out there. I agree but when someone equates all religion to an understanding of the supernatural which then somehow leads to good things they don't get to complain when certain beliefs are brought up. The original claim was about specific events Christianity and Islam may have had an impact on but it was then taken to an absurd generalized point where religion in itself, regardless of the specific god(s), scripture, teachings etc., is assumed to be a force of good merely because it existed.
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Apr 4, 2017 11:02
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Crowsbeak posted:You have stood by bad claims. Pot, meet Kettle.
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Apr 4, 2017 12:07
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Pot, meet Kettle. When have I been wrong about history except when I was being deliberately sarcastic because a bunch of you saying religion had done nothing but cause death while then praising the "secular" mongols.
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Apr 4, 2017 18:25
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Crowsbeak posted:When have I been wrong about history except when I was being deliberately sarcastic because a bunch of you saying religion had done nothing but cause death while then praising the "secular" mongols. Keep tilting at that windmill and arguing in bad faith after it's been pointed out that none of the groups you keep referencing were secular. Also, continuing to apply the No True Scotsman fallacy to the American Religious Right isn't doing you any favors. There is a reason these horrible religious beliefs keep influencing public policy and it isn't because they are a minority. It's like that nonsense about police brutality being a highly-publicized minority of "bad apples" even though the actual statistics on the matter are downright terrifying if you actually get a look at them. Some Pinko Commie fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 18:49
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Keep tilting at that windmill and arguing in bad faith after it's been pointed out that none of the groups you keep referencing were secular. I never did use the no true sctosmen fallacy on the religious right. In fact I am rather ashamed at their service to Capital. I mean I guess you can claim I am using NTS on Calvis. But thats because I see them as much Christian as I see Muslims as Christian. Also  now Chrisitans are like the Ferguson police.
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Apr 4, 2017 19:30
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Crowsbeak posted:I never did use the no true sctosmen fallacy on the religious right. In fact I am rather ashamed at their service to Capital. I mean I guess you can claim I am using NTS on Calvis. But thats because I see them as much Christian as I see Muslims as Christian. Also You would probably be surprised at the overlap if you asked the Ferguson police about their religious beliefs.
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Apr 4, 2017 20:02
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Crowsbeak posted:I never did use the no true sctosmen fallacy on the religious right. In fact I am rather ashamed at their service to Capital. I mean I guess you can claim I am using NTS on Calvis. But thats because I see them as much Christian as I see Muslims as Christian. Also Do you know how ridiculous it is to split those hairs? Catholics and Calvinists and Lutherans and Methodists are all Christians, it's a massive NTS to claim otherwise. If a theoretical physicist subscribed to string theory, it would be idiotic for him to call a quantum gravity physicist, "not a scientist." Same thing.
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Apr 4, 2017 20:38
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Infinite Karma posted:Do you know how ridiculous it is to split those hairs? Catholics and Calvinists and Lutherans and Methodists are all Christians, it's a massive NTS to claim otherwise. Well it isn't when alot of people here ascribe Calvinist beliefs to all christians.
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Apr 4, 2017 20:48
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Infinite Karma posted:Do you know how ridiculous it is to split those hairs? Catholics and Calvinists and Lutherans and Methodists are all Christians, it's a massive NTS to claim otherwise. Er, thre is a pretty massive difference between the various Christian denominations, about the only thing they have in common is that they think that Jesus was a pretty cool guy, and they believe that God exists. Like you might as well say that Kant and Calvin are the same because both their concepts of ethics are deontological. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 20:51
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Crowsbeak posted:Well it isn't when alot of people here ascribe Calvinist beliefs to all christians. As a category Christianity contains denominations that range from neo-platonists who know things with science to basically having no epistemology or real philosophy whatsoever. But they do love to pretend that we are all Calvinists for some reason. ..
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Apr 4, 2017 20:56
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Like for its entire history, Christianity has been a focal point for centuries upon centuries of philosophical thought, even before the Reformation led some of those groups to splinter off and form their own churches. Saying it's all the same is just... mind blowingly absurd.
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Apr 4, 2017 20:58
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OwlFancier posted:Like for its entire history, Christianity has been a focal point for centuries upon centuries of philosophical thought, even before the Reformation led some of those groups to splinter off and form their own churches. Well, this thread is specifically about the American Religious Right (which is a specific subset of Christians that do in fact subscribe to the beliefs being criticized in this thread). If you don't subscribe to the beliefs of the sect being criticized in this thread, why are you arguing about it? EDIT: And as far as American Christianity is concerned, yes, it really is all the same in any meaningful sense. Wasn't it Jesus that said you'd know a tree by the fruit it bears? When the gently caress does that start applying to Christianity? Some Pinko Commie fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 21:12
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This thread is about the American religious right in that the OP explicitly mentions his concern that other denominations are drowned out by the sects with the louder and more abrasive voice, yes.
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Apr 4, 2017 21:15
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Well, this thread is specifically about the American Religious Right (which is a specific subset of Christians that do in fact subscribe to the beliefs being criticized in this thread). WHen you explicetley make it not about that sect. Or when people start making up history. Like saying Turkey was never secular.
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Apr 4, 2017 21:18
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Adding in a post because the edit took too long to go through:quote:And as far as American Christianity is concerned, yes, it really is all the same in any meaningful sense. Wasn't it Jesus that said you'd know a tree by the fruit it bears? When the gently caress does that start applying to Christianity?
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Apr 4, 2017 21:34
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Well, this thread is specifically about the American Religious Right (which is a specific subset of Christians that do in fact subscribe to the beliefs being criticized in this thread). Except the post in question literally said it applies to all Christian denominations, that is flat out stupid.
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Apr 4, 2017 21:37
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OwlFancier posted:Except the post in question literally said it applies to all Christian denominations, that is flat out stupid. Which part, specifically, is not applicable to all Christian denominations?
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Apr 4, 2017 22:18
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Which part of what, specifically?
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Apr 4, 2017 22:20
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Whatever post you're talking about being incorrect without quoting it.
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Apr 4, 2017 22:30
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I did quote it, two posts above the one you apparently read.Infinite Karma posted:Do you know how ridiculous it is to split those hairs? Catholics and Calvinists and Lutherans and Methodists are all Christians, it's a massive NTS to claim otherwise. Saying that all Christian denominations are the same is stupid, and it is entirely reasonable for Christians of one to have serious doubts about whether the others are sufficiently akin to their concept of what Christianity is, to merit the label. This is even doctrinal in some of them as many denominations claim true succession from the early church over others. Christianity has a long and storied history of slapfighting, with varying results from heresies being hunted down to theological and philosophical fights, to schisms and the formation of new churches which generally don't get along well with the old ones, to the point that the only real unifying thing is, as I said, that they all think Jesus was important, and they all think that God exists. And those two things do not a theology make. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 22:50
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OwlFancier posted:I did quote it, two posts above the one you apparently read. That's fair, saying they're all the same is stupid. But they are all still Christian, and they have very similar beliefs in a vacuum, details notwithstanding.
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Apr 4, 2017 22:56
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For an extremely broad and arguably, I think, non Christian definition of Christian.
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Apr 4, 2017 23:01
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Okay, but the post you quoted did not say all christian sects were the same. It said they are all within the broad classification of being christian. You either aren't paying attention or you are doubling down on the NTS with a side of straw man.
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Apr 5, 2017 03:25
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OwlFancier posted:I did quote it, two posts above the one you apparently read. Who gives a poo poo? It's not some vague philosophical distinction that matters, it's what people actually do. The US gives us a fairly reasonable metric for "evil" and that's "votes Republican". Christians do that at an alarmingly high rate and if you bracket out racial minorities (racial minorities tend not to vote Republican irrespective of religious belief) then it becomes sky loving high. Evangelical Protestants are the worst, followed by Mainline Protestants, followed by Catholics. But all are well to the right of where they should be. Charitably, this suggests that Christianity is useless as a moral education. Less charitably, it suggests that Christianity is actively bad and deforming people's moral self-cultivation. I'm not sure how going into depth on things like filoque or sola fide would really influence that discussion.
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Apr 5, 2017 03:25
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Like defending the left wing cred of christianity on the basic of the catholic church of all things is beyond farcical to just about anyone who actually lives in catholic majority countries.
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Apr 5, 2017 04:29
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Didn't you hear? The new Pope is totes left wing. Sure, he fingered leftist priests for execution during the Dirty War. And he's pretty OK about child molestation. But he's mildly critical of the capitalist kleptocracy! They are trying to meet us in the middle here people. We should just accept that "kills leftists and mildly criticizes rightists" is as far left as we're gonna get. Wrap it up atheiailures.
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Apr 5, 2017 04:39
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BrandorKP posted:As a category Christianity contains denominations that range from neo-platonists who know things with science to basically having no epistemology or real philosophy whatsoever. But they do love to pretend that we are all Calvinists for some reason. ..
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Apr 5, 2017 05:15
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Shut up Shbobdb
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Apr 5, 2017 05:15
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Fine. St. Augustine argued that laws existed for the damned since saved people would act in the correct manner without laws. Modern Christians are clearly in need of laws and damned, therefore we must destroy Christianity since it creates an alternative authority to the law whereby the damned are allowed free reign. Is that a sufficiently historical argument presented in the language of Christianity?
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Apr 5, 2017 05:28
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Wasn't it Jesus that said you'd know a tree by the fruit it bears? When the gently caress does that start applying to Christianity? Not in this thread, but that fig tree thing none of you seem to get... bookends the money changers in the temple, of course the tree metaphors apply to Christianity and corrupt religion.
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Apr 5, 2017 06:52
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rudatron posted:Tbh Plato is part of the problem here. He had things to say about democracy, that makes him valuable to people who argue against progressive causes, because it excuses oppression as There Is No Alternative. I think we have a larger problem with the metaphors of King of Kings and monarchy of Christ...
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Apr 5, 2017 06:58
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Shbobdb posted:Who gives a poo poo? It's not some vague philosophical distinction that matters, it's what people actually do. The US gives us a fairly reasonable metric for "evil" and that's "votes Republican". To further your point, here's Gallup polls. Gallup posted:Bottom Line This same pattern appears to apply globally where increased religiosity is connected with increased conservatism, regardless of the religion that is most common or how rich the country is.
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Apr 5, 2017 07:14
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Well, this thread is specifically about the American Religious Right (which is a specific subset of Christians that do in fact subscribe to the beliefs being criticized in this thread). you're massively retarded. there is a wide range of Christian expression in the US. The Sanctuary Movement was supported by many on the religious right furthermore, criticizing Jesus for what others do in His name is about as coherent as every single post you've made in this thread hog fat fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 09:28
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Shbobdb posted:Who gives a poo poo? It's not some vague philosophical distinction that matters, it's what people actually do. The US gives us a fairly reasonable metric for "evil" and that's "votes Republican". another incredibly lovely post. I'm gonna argue at a level you have the capacity to understand: go volunteer literally anywhere, talk to your fellow volunteers then make a note of how many of them espouse Christian faith. it's also well-documented that religious people on average donate far more money than non-religious people. go ahead and find that Atlantic article by Emma Green from a week back for proof, you lazy blockhead.
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Apr 5, 2017 09:44
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Jesus Christ. Literally all of your arguments against Christianity proceed as follows: "So and so said this. Where is your God now, idiot?" Here's one: Tolstoy said literally nothing other than the Gospel matters. The Gospel can be summarized as such: do good to/love your fellow man, suspend judgement and abstain from indulgence. Almost every Christian I have ever met follows in this tradition whether they've read Tolstoy or not. "Well, I don't know any Christians personally, so I will generalize based on the vocal minority my philistine friends quote on Facebook. I've seen Jesus Camp. On the off-chance I do know something about Christianity that isn't hearsay, I pretend that I am not just reacting to my own religious upbringing and embellish details about how much my dad, who refuses to talk to me because I'm a pig-man, hates gays."
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Apr 5, 2017 09:53
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hog fat posted:Jesus Christ. Literally all of your arguments against Christianity proceed as follows: Again I don't think you need to suspend judgement or abstain from indulgence to be a good leftist so it doesn't matter to the point of the thread. There are Christians who have done far more for the left then anyone in this thread will ever do. EDIT: Googled Gospel, it means the Good News in English too apparently (in my language it is just "the Good News"), you probably meant that sorry DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 10:25
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hog fat posted:Jesus Christ. Literally all of your arguments against Christianity proceed as follows: It's more like "God said and did these extremely evil and destructive things. Those who worship such a god tend to be utterly fascistic, because God's message is unquestioning obedience. This can be borne out in how religious authorities tend to be reactionary." Now you're going to handwave everything objectionable from God as 'metaphor'.
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Apr 5, 2017 10:49
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Panzeh posted:It's more like "God said and did these extremely evil and destructive things. Those who worship such a god tend to be utterly fascistic, because God's message is unquestioning obedience. This can be borne out in how religious authorities tend to be reactionary." No I'm not, human being with a derivative Hitler avatar; I already said that the entire OT can be discarded. Christ himself did as much. But you wouldn't know that because you haven't read that which you have the gall to criticize. Also laughing aloud if you think that the religious corner the market on fascism. One needn't look further than leftist identity/progressive politics for proof to the contrary. hog fat fucked around with this message at 10:54 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 10:50
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